Remove Mod Support

[BFCInsomnia]

My point was more that he said that DT would be dead with 1500 players and VT2 had less players than that and wasn’t dead.

1500 is more than enough to find players. I’ve found matches at all times, not just during the day. All that changes is their ping.

It would be interesting to know why you guys are having trouble.

I play only on legend and cata and live in europe. I played with other europeans, americans and chinese and japanese players, even outside of their main gaming hours. Even had some australians and they are literally on the other side of the planet for me.

[Molonious]

@Demartus

Until that happens, the blame lies squarely with Fatshark for defining a policy and utterly failing to enforce it. All those of us who see such mods as cheats can do is report known mod users as cheaters and hope Fatshark finally take action to address the problem.

This assumes Fatshark sees “cheat” the same way as you do.

To use the example of the DecodeHelper, this can help you minimize the time spent on the minigame, but Fatshark designed the encounter to take a minimum amount of time, and you cannot bypass that. It can help reduce the time you spend on that obstacle and out of the fight, but that’s about it, you’re still going to have to sit there and operate the scanner and wait for the scan element to reach the right characters and press them at the correct time.

As far as FS has been concerned, that appears to be fine.

[Murderer]

@Molonious

As far as FS has been concerned, that appears to be fine.

I’m not sure i’d pull that conclusion. Possibly they don’t think it’s fine but don’t care enough to do something about it. If you look at how the minigame on the train mission works, it interestingly takes a set amount of time minimum, enforcing the “gameplay break” dynamic, as opposed to the old minigames like scan targets or the hab dreyko thing, which were designed before these mods emerged and can be trivialized and vastly sped up by them.

It’s one of these things that are kinda sad from a game design perspective, if intentional. I think the train mission minigame is decidedly worse than scanning or the other gameboy minigames.

I’ve mentioned it elsewhere but gameplay design in WoW boss fights changed entirely because there are very few limits to what addons can organize and automate on behalf of the player. This obviously isn’t as impactful, it’s just some mechanics to make you spend time and multitask and split attention in an enemy-filled event, but I think that it’s the same design issue.
Simply put if mods trivialize your current systems then you can either hunt the mods or the systems must change. Sometimes the former would result in a better game.

[Zoralink]

I wonder how many ways we can go down the route of:

“They haven’t taken it down so it’s fine.”

“Fatshark has no control over Nexusmods nor does not removing something equal acceptance.”

“They haven’t taken it down so it’s fine.”

[gpkgpk]

@Molonious

It can help reduce the time you spend on that obstacle and out of the fight, but that’s about it, you’re still going to have to sit there and operate the scanner and wait for the scan element to reach the right characters and press them at the correct time.

FWIW: You can also reset the puzzle if you exit and retry, so if you glance a pattern with all edges, trade it for a quicker one.

@Molonious

As far as FS has been concerned, that appears to be fine.

I know what some others think this, why do you?

[Akslumerican]

Using a controller isn’t hard lol you make out like its impossible i have beaten havoc 40 on console with a controller and obviously no mods

[Molonious]

@gpkgpk

I know what some others think this, why do you?

Looking at the mod policy:

Using mods that directly affect unmodded players’ experience of the game and/or is used to grief other players.
Examples: Speed hacks, outright cheating in missions, etc.
Using mods that affect the stability/performance of the game service.
Using mods that devalue other players’ investments (time or monetary) in the game
Examples: Bypassing progression, penances or contracts, unlocking of premium cosmetics and currencies in the game service.
Toxic behaviors reported as an indirect result of using mods.

It’s not like a speedhack or outright cheat in the sense that it doesn’t do anything that just being really good at the minigame doesn’t do, you still have to beat the minigame, you can’t bypass it. That’s what I get from reading that.

So while the mod may feel “cheaty”, it doesn’t fall into what Fatshark appears to consider a cheat in a sense that they’re concerned with.

Going from there, it doesn’t appear to affect stability or performance. It doesn’t directly “devalue other player’s investments” i.e. won’t unlock pennances or premium cosmetics for you. It doesn’t appear to generate toxic behavior in the sense that people aren’t slagging each because they completed minigames too fast (and it’s not doing something like spamming voice emotes).

Looking at Fatshark’s actions, they have all the power in the world to alter the mechanic or slap in a different minigame, to break the mod, ask for the mod to be taken down, and to make announcements and discipline players for use. They have done none of the above to date with regards to DecodeHelper.

Hence my arrival at the conclusion that it appears to be fine as far as FS is concerned. With the evidence and policies available, I’m not sure what other conclusion we could arrive at. If FS does not think its fine, they’re doing everything they can to make people think otherwise given how long the mod has been publicly available, it’s not something they can say they just didn’t know about.

@Murderer

I’m not sure i’d pull that conclusion. Possibly they don’t think it’s fine but don’t care enough to do something about it. If you look at how the minigame on the train mission works, it interestingly takes a set amount of time minimum, enforcing the “gameplay break” dynamic, as opposed to the old minigames like scan targets or the hab dreyko thing, which were designed before these mods emerged and can be trivialized and vastly sped up by them.

Aye, the minigame on the train is different and enforces a lot more time out, but I’m not sure how much we can call that adapatation to mods vs just experimenting and playing with different things on new maps. Fatshark certainly could have patched the older missions to use a different minigame if they were that concerned however.

[Imperator1]

@Ralendil

Could happen that there is too many sounds in the buffer to let them play all.
But, when the sound is not here at all, Spidey sense won’t help you.
When I tested it, I faced several times specials that have not been seen byu the mod.

Not trying to argue or maybe a barrier in languege but in the case i describe the mod works. It is just that there are in some sense to many sounds played and the game just cant pull it off but Spidey sense will show them.

But you are right that there are sounds bugged and when that happens spidey sense wont show them. (Sounds wont play at all doesnt matter if its one special etc and spidey wont register it).

Many players forget that in the highest difficult so much happens, you have either zero or 20+ specials/disablers/elites the indicator is more of a hinder than a benefit. If you get a sound you can still focus on hitting a weakspot, how you allies are doing, you seroundings etc while with the mods you have to stop doing that and look at your indicators.

If I could choose of having Spidey sense or working sound I would always choose sound. If you cant win with working sound Spidey sense will not make you prevent mistakes unless you are on low difficulty and a really bad player. ( no offense) and those using it as an argument are just using it for the sake of having an argument.

[gpkgpk]

@Imperator1

Many players forget that in the highest difficult so much happens, you have either zero or 20+ specials/disablers/elites the indicator is more of a hinder than a benefit.

Your information might be severely out of date (this has all been said before).
That’s now how the mod is used or intended really, if it was, to your point you could argue that it was a at least form of accidental balance and I’d agree with you.

An intentional effort was made to make it highly customizable, so to that you can focus on specific threats at specific threat thresholds (ranges, actions)
, e.g. disablers and pox if you can’t hand the additional information on-screen.
e.g.

sample snippets, where’s all that visual clutter?

snippets

TLDR: any “clutter” is highly customizable in your favor, and/or you get used to processing new advantageous information.

[Ryshek]

@AndiNagasaki

i keep hearing about this scoreboard elitism.
i have never seen it and i have been playing since before game release.
not to say that it doesnt exist but im always on the Forums here and on discord.

i’ve been playing since beta… I’ve never seen it even once. I realize my experience is purely anecdotal… still, that’s a long time to have never seen it.

[Ralendil]

@Imperator1

Not trying to argue or maybe a barrier in languege

That’s me and my incredible English.

@Imperator1

If I could choose of having Spidey sense or working sound I would always choose sound.

To be honest, I tested Spidey Sense because Gpkgpk kept saying that it is pure cheating, etc.

I tested it for three weeks, and I have removed it. I totally agree with you. When you have several enemies, our mind can manage all these sounds, but the mod cannot. If you have six trappers, it’s like a Christmas tree. And when you get too much information, it’s as if you had none. It doesn’t help at all.

In my opinion, those who believe this mod is too helpful only tested it for a few minutes.

Anyway, the mod is useful for people with hearing impairments (or without a good headset). I am totally aware that not every player who downloaded it had such a problem, but it doesn’t change the fact that it allows several players to simply be able to play the game.

Based on my experience, I maintain that the mod won’t make you a god because it won’t help you prioritize, aim, dodge, etc. And to add to this, in the base game, you get the same warning—it’s just that it is displayed with a color and a cursor in Spidey Sense.

As for the claim that it is useful when 20 specials are thrown against you… to be honest, I used it in Maelstrom, and that’s where I concluded that the mod is useless for me. Too many color indications.

However, sure, if you are playing at a low difficulty, the mod will be able to give you indications every time. But again, you have game sounds.

[Zoralink]

I’ll freely admit that GPK isn’t my favorite person, but he isn’t wrong about the potential advantages of Spideysense.

Information is power. Any cue that gives you additional odds of responding is a benefit.

Audio cues are good.

Visual cues are good.

Both together are better.

Falling back to it ‘not making you a god’ is the other side of this absurdly karking tired argument because you’re all just repeating the same crap and it’s annoying as hell, honestly. Something can both be beneficial and toeing the line or even crossing it without trivializing the entire game. In the end information is power, but it still requires you to be able to use that information well. There’s far more than just extremes, and until people acknowledge that this ridiculously overblown conversation is doomed to repeat.

[Ralendil]

Test it 3 weeks. Use it in maelstrom.
When you would have tested it 3 weeks and with highest difficulties, then I am sure your opinion would change.

[Zoralink]

Extremely unlikely. Even just turning on subtitles in games like L4D or Back 4 Blood that have specific captions for things like “Boomer spawn” or “Stinger shot” is extremely beneficial, let alone the ability to warn you for specific attacks as well as directions. Things like sniper shot direction, a crusher overhead, etc all benefit heavily from knowing their precise location and when. Hell, just turning on the sniper warning alone would be beneficial, as they’re one of the more threatening specials and it can be easy for their laser to either be at a perfect angle to screw you or to be lost in the visual noise during fire fights.

Again: Do I think it would make someone who plays poorly a god? No.

Does it benefit someone who otherwise doesn’t run it if they use the information appropriately and/or set it up to help them? Yes.

My main mode that I pretty much only play is High intensity shock gauntlet auric damnation. (When I play, I haven’t been playing out of disappointment with the current state of the game)

I’m trying to not be a jerk about it, but if you didn’t find any benefit to it then you either weren’t using the information well/at all, or didn’t set it up in a beneficial manner for you specifically. Or both.

[Ralendil]

@Zoralink

Does it benefit someone who otherwise doesn’t run it if they use the information appropriately and/or set it up to help them? Yes

Every mod give you a benefit

That’s not the question here.

I say that it is anecdotal. When I removed it, I was relying only on sounds even with visual indicators.

Again, try it 3 weeks and let’s discuss again… The first week you will think it is too much help… The second, you will pay less attention. The third you will only use sounds and will wonder what the mod brings you…
The ones that point this mod as inacceptable have not tested it seriously.

And I pointed also the help it can give to players without good headset or hearing impairment.

[Zoralink]

@Ralendil

Every mod give you a benefit

I don’t exactly think mods like the better penance UI to make it less annoying to check recently completed penances are going to be helping me survive rounds any time soon.

@Ralendil

I say that it is anecdotal. WhenI removed it, I was relying only on sounds even with visual indicators.

Yes. I’ve always heavily relied on audio indicators for almost everything. Part of that is that if there’s ever any uncertainty of what occurred (“Did X spawn?” “Did I just hear that attack cue?”) then a visual indicator is a backup. Anyone who claims to never be uncertain about something (be it audio or visual) is flat out lying or is secretly a transcended human. Everybody makes mistakes, and those mistakes include missing cues, mistiming reactions to said cues due to a delayed response (where a secondary cue can help prevent this), or some other variation thereof.

More information is pretty much always going to be better, so long as you understand how to make use of this information.

Other than that, we’re just going to spin in circles because I’ve watched this same conversation occur multiple times. It’s pretty tiring. Your own personal experience with not taking full advantage of what it offers does not negate its potential benefits.

[Ralendil]

Again… When you will have tested it a long time, we will be able to talk seriously about it.

The question is not if it benefits you… I said it, having bad speakers (not 5.1) or bad headset is sufficient to have a real benefit from this mod.
The question is does this mod give you an unfair advantage? And here the answer is no.
I react faster to sounds than visual indicators.
In fact, I need paying attention to them to take advantage of them, while doing that, I don’t pay attention to other things.
If you rely on sounds, you get indications while still looking with your eyes at the situation.
So, the mod put you an handicap if you insist at just wanting to use the visual indicators.

[Zoralink]

I have more than enough experience in enough games in both this genre and in general to be able to tell you accurately that having additional cues for information is going to be a benefit. Even if I set it up for a single enemy type, that is information I might otherwise not have or might miss. Even if that only helps me one in ten matches.

Effectively telling me my opinion is invalid in this discussion unless I bring it up again in three weeks is absurd, frankly.

And that’s without digging into other ones like the active special tracker.

[Ralendil]

That’s the problem…
The players that point this mod are also players that have not tested it.

If someone gives an opinion on havoc and never played it, just on what he has read about it, will it make his opinion valuable?
I am sorry to say that I would answer no. Even if he has played lot of other games.

We have seen someone like that few times ago, that knew that psyker was the weaker, in term of power, class, cause he played a lot of other fps. And he was seriously wrong.

[Zoralink]

I’ve installed it previously out of curiosity, just not for the ‘three weeks’ you’re demanding.

I quickly disabled it because it felt extremely gross and cheaty to me.

Somebody making balance claims about an entire class is not analogous to somebody recognizing a feature design that’s effectively an improved version of something I’ve already found advantageous in this genre. (IE: The aforementioned subtitles)

Pretending like the mod is completely useless is an absurd extreme stance on the other side of people saying it’s completely cheating and unacceptable. This is exactly what I was talking about, and I’m not in the mood for slamming my head into brick walls right now.

Not everything is purely black and white.