Regarding the issue of nerfs to the Dueling Sword and Plasma Gun

[alsozara]

@Svyat020

But that i haven’t seen is the mythical ‘over-the-top’ power of plasma, because this is a blatant lie. Even people who recorded videos about it only proved for underwhelming this gun is in terms of damage, and i have stated it several times.

This is more helpful conversation than the Zealot conspiracies you’ve made up. As you’ve somewhat recognised further down, massive cleave tends to pay dividends into difficulties that spam absurd amounts of elites. This makes Plasma’s damage output get very silly, even if it’s only mid at taking out individual high priority targets.

Personally I don’t want Plasma heavily nerfed, more reworked so that the charged shots are more useful and the primary shots don’t get access to the same insane cleave levels. Primary shots currently are pretty dumb on several levels though. You gotta admit the current version of the gun that has you spam left click is pretty lame.

@Svyat020

And there’s no deflection. One of your main arguments is how PlAsMa VeT OvErShAdOwS EvErYoNe!11 Which is untrue and a blatant hypocrisy qhen there’s much more powerfull classes

You put this in a post responding to me yet clearly I have never said this, nor even implied it to me recollection. Are you sure you want to cast aspersions on MY reading ability here?

@Svyat020

And if you dislike the correct topics about flamer, knife and power swords - then i will remind you about boss-deleting machine of thunder hammer that you always ask to buff, bruh

I honestly don’t even really know what you’re on about here. I’ve told you already everyone here also wants knife nerfed. Nobody at all is fighting you on that one.

I’m also not sure whether you’re saying power sword should be nerfed or you think I think it should be nerfed?

Regarding Thunder Hammer, I have no doubt it has uses in a team comp as a dedicated boss killer. Outside that it’s an infinitely worse power sword in every way. Equally bad mobility, roughly similar single target elite killing, VASTLY worse group elite clear, vastly worst horde clear. Regardless I don’t mind weapons being niche and I haven’t asked for that one to be buffed since it last did receive a buff. I hope you’re not suggesting it’s currently overpowered because it does precisely one thing really really well while being below average by a good margin in everything else.

I really struggle to understand that whole second post, it’s a bit of a stream of consciousness word salad frankly. I’m still waiting for you to point out this hypocrisy explicitly though. What have I been a hypocrite about here?

Clearly you think some of us are targeting things that are only barely overperforming but seriously? Here are some of the just recently talked about things besides DS and Plasma:

Flamer, Purgatus and Psyker AoE staff spam generally
Ogryn confident strike, batter, rumbler, misc other talents
Knife
Gold toughness (both Zealot and Vet versions)
Cooldown Reduction in general (Psykinetic Aura, IoD as stand outs)

If you think we’re off base about those you’ve got a heap of explaining to do. I don’t know how you argue those aren’t all pretty bonkers.

[Svyat020]

There’s no conspiracy. Only hypocrisy that i see or saw.

Just as i said. Rework. At least somewhere we have agreed. Somehow this completely missed you the other times i was saying this or our other threads.

I didn’t said you said this.

Now some people - maybe. Not at the moment ps was nerfed tho.

roughly similar single target elite killing, VASTLY worse group elite clear

This is a lie. TH is much more superior in temrs of solo damage and very good in terms of crowd control. It should have weaknesses, after all.

I do not say it’s overpowered. I say that it does what it should. Same did power sword on beta/release, but apparently in was a reason for a nerf. Plasma barely does what ir should, and yet people yell for a nerf. Again, this is hypocrisy.

AoE spam staff? Do you mean voidstrike? If yes that this is a meme, because it’s another baseless nerf request. Purgatus is… makes some sense, but barely deserves a nerf. After all it overheats psyker. As for rumbler - can’t say anything as well. I haven’t seen a single reason to count it OP as well. From my experience damn stubber is much more powerful.

Golden toughness is… questionable indeed. And i see nothing wrong with cooldown reduction. I mean, yeah, it allows to instantly ready up your ability sometimes but i don’t see a problem with it. Tho see the problem or nerfing it, since nerf of cd reduction and golden toughness would invalidate veteran as class, except for the grenade build.

[alsozara]

To be completely honest there isn’t much here I think we can discuss. I don’t really agree on almost anything you said there. I don’t really even know how to diagnose where the difference in our experience comes from.

I do appreciate you at least not accusing me of being part of some secret Zealot cabal that is plotting the downfall of Vet’s. You addressed those points refreshingly directly, I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree here though.

[Ghoulfriend]

I don’t understand why there is so much opinion projection going on in this discussion thread, how can you as a person even begin to presume to know how other people think? Also how is this even relevant to the discussion?

Personally i play all classes and the classes who are for me least rewarding or fun to play is Veteran, and Zealot and i have been thinking about why that is.

One of the aspects is that the Class specific weapons for both of them isn’t really that fun to play with at the moment.

The of the biggest reasons why i play Vet is for their iconic weapons, Plasma, Helbore, Lasgun, and Power Sword and most of these weapons are really not that rewarding or “worth” to play with.

Same with Zealots i want to use their class specific weapons, Heavy Eviscerator, Thunderhammer, Heavy sword and Purgaton Flamer etc.

To be realistic Zealots and Veterans are really similar, what mostly separates them is their class specific weapons and obviously their talent trees other than that they are really similar.

They should revolve more around their weapons because that is pretty much their niche (Talent tree wise).

Veteran = Majority Ranged specialist weapons, one Melee specialist weapon = Mostly revolves around shooting.

Zealot = Majority Melee specialist weapons, one Ranged specialist weapon = Mostly revolves around shooting.

For me both of these classes isn’t as rewarding/fun to play with their Specialist weapons, at least not on the higher difficulties. Excluding Havoc because i don’t really play it.

I can understand why want to balance Dueling Sword because when Fatshark decided to share those weapons to Vet and Zeal it quickly became the meta for a reason.

But is the Plasma really that OP? It is really unruly, has long animations and has limited ammo. It is really good when it has ammo and when you have the space. If you are unlucky you are gonna play with others who use ammo and if you’re really unlucky and they don’t really wanna share the ammo you are gonna have to fight for ammo the whole game.

Can someone explain to me what’s so unbalanced with the Plasma?

[dannylew8299]

Oh man, what a thread to come back to.

Remember when balance changes got leaked and that was a thing people were on about? Before Dogmageddon?

Simpler times. I miss our Chinese posters.

[Frish]

@Ghoulfriend

But is the Plasma really that OP? It is really unruly, has long animations and has limited ammo. It is really good when it has ammo and when you have the space. If you are unlucky you are gonna play with others who use ammo and if you’re really unlucky and they don’t really wanna share the ammo you are gonna have to fight for ammo the whole game.

Can someone explain to me what’s so unbalanced with the Plasma?

The heavy attacks serve no real purpose over light attacks. The light attacks also can’t blow you up, so there’s no risk using them which robs the weapon’s identity a bit.

Given the sheer amount of cleave of the weapon there’s a missing trade-off between heavies and lights here. The consensus 'round these parts seems to be that lights cleave too much, and should be adjusted in comparison to heavies.

On top, it’s got great ammo efficiency and synergy with the hybrid (bottom right) weapons specialist tree so you can get through a match without having to reload in combat if you get stuck into melee every now and again. It also has incredible stagger which helps a lot in many situations.

Personal opinion time:

That seems to be the crux of it, to me. As much as I LOVE the plasmagun (I really do, come at me) it does seem a little half-baked. It used to suck your HP to vent heat (which sucks), now it drains toughness (which tickles – and reinforces VoC supremacy). Light attacks have this magic switch to prevent overheat – why can’t we just use that?? It’s also very strong in corridors and scales very well with elite spam so it’s quite polarising when viewed with balance changes over the years.

I just hope they manage to keep the identity of the weapon without making it bad again. I think the delayed shot is interesting and the cleave can be very rewarding. The Weapons Specialist tree synergy is my favourite in the whole game. It feels great to use overall, and yet could clearly use some improvements to the light/heavy attack dichotomy.

[Ghoulfriend]

@Frish

The heavy attacks serve no real purpose over light attacks. The light attacks also can’t blow you up, so there’s no risk using them which robs the weapon’s identity a bit.

I thought that a Plasma gun in this universe has two modes, one safe mode and one overcharge that is a risk reward gamble kind of thing. The weapon isn’t a janky living bomb that is dangerous to the user unless you overcharge it. Am I wrong in perceiving the Plasma guns design in this way? So it is working as intended?

Personally i don’t think that venting should be a punishment, you can’t use the gun when you are venting that exposes you and you are essentially doing nothing and moving slowly.

@Frish

On top, it’s got great ammo efficiency and synergy with the hybrid (bottom right) weapons specialist tree so you can get through a match without having to reload in combat if you get stuck into melee every now and again. It also has incredible stagger which helps a lot in many situations.

To be fair, you have to specialize really far down to access this “great” efficency (up to 3.3% from ammo reserve). I’m sure it helps and i think that if you conserve your ammo and specialize a lot of points to facilitate that you should get it, right?

Besides, shouldn’t there be specialized weapons? Like the Plasma gun, an armor obliterating weapon? Do we really want perfect balance across all weapons because that means - no personality, no uniqueness and dullness.

@Frish

I just hope they manage to keep the identity of the weapon without making it bad again.

I think we all are hoping for that, I thing we all want good and fun weapons that works well within the game.

I agree with you on a lot of points but i don’t really agree on the “consensus”, it’s a powerful weapon as it should be it’s a Plasma gun.

It’s kind of like the Thunderhammer it’s a great weapon in the right circumstances.

[Frish]

@Ghoulfriend

thought that a Plasma gun in this universe has two modes, one safe mode and one overcharge that is a risk reward gamble kind of thing. The weapon isn’t a janky living bomb that is dangerous to the user unless you overcharge it. Am I wrong in perceiving the Plasma guns design in this way? So it is working as intended?

That sounds cool, I’ve heard tell but haven’t gone so far as to read the wiki. Some fan I am!

I think if it’s gonna run the risk of blowing you up then it should be very worthwhile, but it doesn’t feel like it at the moment. It just feels like a stronger light attack that is more inconvenient than the 3 light attacks worth of ammo it consumes. That’s in my experience anyway.

I think giving the heavy attack more differentiation would be nice, so you can decide on the fly whether to use it or not. There’s enough stagger, damage, and cleave on a single light attack that heavies rarely seem worth the time and effort to charge.

@Ghoulfriend

Personally i don’t think that venting should be a punishment, you can’t use the gun when you are venting that exposes you and you are essentially doing nothing and moving slowly.

I agree with you completely on this one! But then again, I haven’t even read the wiki…

[Ghoulfriend]

@Frish

That sounds cool, I’ve heard tell but haven’t gone so far as to read the wiki. Some fan I am!

Haha don’t worry, my point is the weapon is defined in the universe and there for people will have expectations on how it functions!

@Frish

I think giving the heavy attack more differentiation would be nice

Personally i think they are different, the heavy attacks does way more damage and penetrate walls.
I agree how ever that it doesn’t really feels like the heavy attack is more powerful (but it is!).

[Antilus]

@dannylew8299

Dogmageddon?

those dogs with bleed build are yielding more dot damage than infernus, its reddicolous

[Svyat020]

Yep. I’ve finally tried arbiter myself.

Gosh, it’s so FUN. But I feel how my skill deteriorates with every game.

On vet i dance like every hit will instakill me(Because it is, most likely, will be so), on arby i can allow myself to HOLD THE KARKING GROUND, tanking some hit adn replantishing enough toughness to take one more.

[DornIvanotic]

“i feel how my skill deteriorates” “don’t nerf the class” okay buddy lol

[Vror]

@Svyat020

On vet i dance like every hit will instakill me(Because it is, most likely, will be so)

How, how can you possibly die easily as vet, it takes a lot of effort to actually go down

[Antilus]

you never get this bonus when the shihit the fan

sucks balls

arbites got two of these

this one is your crutch, but good luck counting on this alone

the moment anything chew it down a bit is completly worthless

This Alone makes you tankier than a zealot with untill end

cheat code

better than Confirmed Kill?, Better than Confirmed Kill

is this another sick joke?

: Z

: O

Hes got 3 Confirmed Kill like talents, and all 3 has better activation requirements of course

[Vror]

Show me your vet build for Havoc if you think these suck balls lol

[Antilus]

what if the rest is worse, i bet you havn’t thought about it

them sucking doesn’t exclude them being the best

Vets only tankier than a psyker, and without voice of command he is even worse, much worse

[Vror]

@Antilus

them sucking doesn’t exclude them being the best

They don’t suck, Arbi skills are just OP

Edit: Did you seriously bring Rebreather and Shield Plates when they’re bad? I’d rather have Confirmed kill than any of these two you mentioned lol

[Antilus]

i’d like to see your elite/special killing sprees while you are blinded by green fog

there is no way around it, half of vet abilities work against the player

do x y z and get this buff, and while you are at it you take double the damage you would take if you were just playing normally

the whole veteran class is a player trap

Vet is the only class where his best builds have no keystones, and no wonders, they are such a distraction during the gameplay, that of course you are good without them

[Vror]

@Antilus

i’d like to see your elite/special killing sprees while you are blinded by green fog

???

Dude literally no serious build takes rebreather lol

@Antilus

there is no way around it, half of vet abilities work against the player

do x y z and get this buff, and while you are at it you take double the damage you would take if you were just playing normally

This is so weird

From the ones I mentioned you just play normally, you don’t need to do anything out of the box

You have to kill specials/elites regardless if you run Confirmed Kill or not
Catch a breath is literally “don’t put yourself in risk and you get rewarded” literally standard vet play
Iron Will is just free

@Antilus

the whole veteran class is a player trap

What does this meannn, I virtually play vet 60% of the time in Havoc and he does good with a good build

@Antilus

Vet is the only class where his best builds have no keystones, and no wonders, they are such a distraction during the gameplay, that of course you are good without them

Focus Target is literally just 20% free damage, god you’re outdated

Most vet builds I’ve seen for Havoc use Weapon Specialist (wrong choice), and the few correct ones use Focus Target

I have NEVER seen any Havoc 40 vet run no keystones

Edit: It’s funny because Vet is the only class I can play in Havoc without using ANY gunner curio, for Zealot I need 1, for Psyker and Ogryn I need 2, and for Arbi I need 3, because of how much fire you can receive and you’ll be fine

[Antilus]

@Vror

Catch a breath is literally “don’t put yourself in risk and you get rewarded” literally standard vet play

toughness regen is a stat you need after you have put yourself at risk, whenever you get toughness and you are not in danger its effectivly wasted

and vet is all about that

if you are in a killing spree of elites and special you are not in real danger, its when you are clutching holding your block that you are

that is why i laugh at people yapping about how good exhilarating takedown is

they can’t even proc out for blood when they need regen and they think they can land ranged headshot kills to get their toughness back?, laughable

@Vror

Focus Target is literally just 20% free damage, god you’re outdated

i’ve been in my focus target phase for a long time, but i’ve gone trough it thankfully

delusional, veteran players are the most delusional of the community, that’s the right word