Veteran & Plasma Guns

Warhammer 40,000: Darktide General Discussion
1

First of all, fantastic job with the game so far. Couple of issues.

  1. Veteran is still a little underpowered compared to the other classes. Particularly with durability and somehow… ranged. It needs more toughness avaliable without sacrifcing other powerful parts of the tree. Additionally why is the guardsman second lowest on stamina? You mean to tell me the priest does more TABing than the Guard? Consequently blocking is difficult and you get easily swamped.

  2. Revolvers are more powerful than plasma guns…
    Seriously? Plasma guns should be the hardest hitting weapon in the game! Revolvers have: more amo, much faster reloads, way faster movement speed, higher damage and are available on all classes. Nerf it it’s a pistol ffs!

  3. Get rid of the padlocks in crafting! So annoying.

The veteran should be the best with ranged weaponry. Psyker has powerful ranged magic, fine. Zealots should not be faster and better at ranged than a guardsmen, at least not both. Ogryns don’t hit as hard in melee as they should. Being hit by an ogryn would be like having a pallet of bricks thrown at you.

Yes I know some decisions are for balancing. No I dont care.

If you have a section in the forum specifically for feedback I can’t be bothered to go find it, I’m doing life and playing DARKTIDE

EDIT: My main complaint is with the REVEOLVER not the plasma gun. The PG is fine so long as they nerf revolvers. If they leave revolvers how they are they need to buff the PG. The only advantage revolvers should get over other guns is movement speed and higher damage than a las pistol/auto pistol.
Also the zealot is OP rn and can’t be competing with vet in ranged when it already has everything best or 2nd best. Just like vet shouldn’t be competing with zealot in ourright melee damage.

3 Likes
2

I main Ogryn but do dabble in Vet frequently.

  1. Vet seems fine. I use Plasmagun and basooka everything into oblivion.

  2. I don’t use pistols, but I like the option for players to enjoy. The only issue I see is the high requirement for ammo if there x3 shooties in the lobby.

  3. I think there is a graveyard for this request. My unfavored opinion is its fine but I agree this is a highly questioned design decision. (it’s a worse version of the Division 2)

Yea, this post is (not that you care) in General Discussion. The topic location you are looking for is the Gameplay Feedback Section.

1 Like
3

As a vet main I can say vet IS the best ranged class. Not sure what made you think otherwise. Zealot can do some stuff with bolter Fotf, but nothing more than vet can with the same gun.

Plasma is also op as hell. You have 45 shots a per battery. Just don’t use charged shot. Its not worth the heat and ammo.

Reload too long? Learn the animation cancels. There are 3 in the sequence you can cut the animation time in half.

Revolver is not better. It has more burst, but less sustain. Its different not better.

Sounds like you also rely far too much on blocking. In my average auric maelstrom mission between 4 people there is an average of 12 blocked attacks. Not per person. Total.

That said veteran stamina is kinda sucky unless you spec into the delay nodes, but we are a ranged power house not a melee one (though we’re no slouch in fisticuffs when it comes right down to it).

EDIT:

My brother in God Emperor you’re asking them to be nerfed if you want this. A pallet of bricks aspires to hit half as hard an ogryn.

You can literally slap giant monstrosities so hard with the mk III club they get staggered, and you can chain it as well so that they never get off a single attack.

A shield (a DEFENSIVE weapon mind you) chain staggers everything other than bosses, and still one shots horde mobs.

Their shovel’s special punches through carapace armor so hard that you will literally one shot crushers.

TL;DR Vet, and ogryn are in a fine place.

6 Likes
4

i agree and disagree with you at the same time x)

I agree, that veteran is in a bad place. But i dont agree on reasons why.

Veteran is an absolute beast. I dont know which builds you are using. I have 12 loadouts on my veteran. Each of them is different and unique experience, build and playstyle. And i play Auric Damnations and Maelstorms only.

  • The classical “Kantrael Ia/MkXII marksman” still wrecks everything it sees.
  • The “Commisar” with heavy laspistol+cadia chainsword and Voice of Command can pretty much solo clutch any mission
  • The “Hellgun Kasrkin” even after nerf still shreds 5 crushers in a row with a single magazine
  • The “Plasmagun Honor Guard” is most OP class in the game, capable of completing hardest missions without taking more than 100 dmg and being top on score.
  • Recently been testing the machinegun build and it’s absolutely wrecks everything. From hordes to crushers and even monstrosities.
  • Hell, i even went on “Only melee, scab faction, no ammo” maelstorm with my grenade+bolter+axe veteran and it was a breeze, top on score and everything.

Yes, all my builds are theme-based. Non meta. I came up with a theme, like a Marine, or Medic, or Resistance Fighter and build around that idea with weapons and talents fitting the theme, not the meta. And still constantly top on scoreboards.

I do see the frustration with veterans. Especially when you HAVE to pick several talents, otherwise you wont survive on Auric. Which already limits the amount of talent points you can invest in 99!!! talents veteran tree. Ogryn has 80 talents. Psyker and Zealot 81 talents. Only veteran has that many. And that’s the problem i have with this class.

Either reduce amount of talents to be 80-81 like other classes, by merging some unpopular talents together and moving must have ones as passing talents (like Tactical Awarnes).
Or make it so we can switch between trees without spending extra points (like we have before grenades, where you can choose any. But on each tier)

1 Like
5

Plasma has ludicrous ammo economy when you remember fat shark hasn’t made using 9 ammo a shot for pressing M2 at all worth it. You get around 90 shots depending on ammo roll, only like 101 with +25% perk which is the bads and not worth it anyway. You should see how bad you can get away with playing just running spot keystone with this thing, 2 shotting bulwarks with no headshot and bypassing shields. These are not things you can do with the Zarona.

Honestly Plasma is so overtuned at the minute I don’t even know what variants would do. A heavy version has no additional breakpoints that don’t exist in the current one, unless it has a charged shot that doesn’t suck. A light one won’t be improving on its mobility or draw time noticeably. What will they do?

6

Vet’s big problem is that the keystones are of questionable value next to those of other classes, I don’t use a Keystone at all on most of my builds, and I cannot imagine doing that on another class. The 4th Vet talent rework fixed some of the issues with how many talent points needed to take a Keystone, but those Keystones still require more work and effort to get value out of actual use than those of any other class. Lucky Bullet, Warp Siphon, Lucky Bullet, Blazing Piety, Feel No Pain, etc all just work without the player needing to do anything, in fact the player can do nothing in many cases and activate them thanks to teammates, there’s no need to stand still and try for weakspot shots or swap weapons back and forth arbitrarily. Talent points are just better spent on more/better grenades/ammo/etc.

The PG has a couple bugs at the moment, but the only big fix it needs is the crosshair. The default PG crosshair is ****ing awful for hitting anything at much distance, it’s so big and wide open with no clear center that it’s really easy to miss and not quite be sure why, particularly with the plasma-smoke after-effect. The Revolver just got a nerf, not sure if it needs more or not, I don’t run one.

The crafting locks are bad, and a design manager at Fatshark really should be personally and professionally embarrassed about it, it actively undercuts literally all other content they release for this product.

3 Likes
7

200w

3 Likes
8

Raw DPS isn’t enough for ogryn to be considered better imo.

It’s the only metric where they would win.

Can’t think of any other possibilities for you saying I’m wrong.

9

Plasma Guns are best utilised with VoC, and I’ve top-fragged for 4 missions straight with my Mk VII Shovel/Plasma Gun VoC build.

I do agree that Revolvers, in their current levels of damage, are WAY too powerful. A Plasma Pistol would be redundant at this point because of those Revolvers.

Plasma Guns are really good and rather balanced at the moment, considering that Bolters have less than half the amount of ammunition that Plasma Guns do. Bolters need more ammo, because they’re currently underpowered as HEL in comparison to both Revolvers and the Plasma Gun.

Revolvers, on the other hand, are completely and utterly OVERPOWERED. They were pretty good on release, as the Zarona (medium variant) did approximately as much damage as the Agripinaa (light variant) does now, making the Bolter a worthy contender for it. I’m seriously scared for the day when Fatshark drops the heavy variant of the Revolver.

Fatshark, please do not nerf the Plasma Gun, unless you’re gonna drop the heavy variant. I do NOT want it to be a slower Bolter with an overheating function like it was on release.

1 Like
10

Ya lost me here. Plasma is nuts. Has lower damage per shot than revolver, but meets almost all the same breakpoints other than crushers making it effectively a much more spammable one shot weapon with way more pierce which includes walls (an attribute that is heavily underrated).

Also is somehow even more forgiving to aim than the revolver which already has a raycast that’s easily around triple size of your average hitscan weapon.

Revolver actually has downtime. Heat management is barely even a thing. If a fight has gone on long enough for you run out on a plasma something has gone terribly wrong, or you didn’t reload between encounters.

Only thing I agree with is that Plasma Pistol would probably be redundant, but only because Plasma gun has such fast draw time.

A plasma pistol like its bigger brother with the ability to shoot through walls, and shields would still have its place if the plasma gun was rightfully more clunky than it currently is.

I don’t think anyone needs to worry about it getting nerfed though. I think its mostly flying under the radar. Most of the vets who use it that I’ve run into also use power swords so they just kind of die a lot from the lack of mobility (it is a viable set up just most can’t seem to make it work).

EDIT: Forgot to mention the most important part of plasma v revolver is that plasma can actually take out shooter packs in an expedient manner. Something revolver fails in.

In the current state of the game with how many shooters spawn this difference cannot be understated.

2 Likes
11

Translation: working as intended.

All this talk claiming the correctly powerful 40k gun as OP when it ain’t even in half the games I qp into is distressing.

Everything the plasma gun currently does is what we asked for.

2 Likes
12

Lore accuracy comes secondary to me over game balance. I’m likely in the minority here.

I think the reason why its not used is because people don’t know how to reload it properly, and the 9 second reload is enough to make most players not use it even though you can make it about as fast as a bolter reload with the 3 animation cancel sequence.

I’ve also seen people blow themselves up with it somehow even though it will do an auto cool when it hits 100 it seems.

EDIT: Fixed a word

13

I tried using it with a Power Sword and it was alright, but the Mk VII Shovel’s a better buddy for my Plasma Gun because it can block Ragers half-decently, and it allows me to get out of dodge quicker if I’m being overwhelmed.

I also expect the Plasma Gun to outperform Revolvers because it’s a futuristic Plasma Gun and the other weapons are handguns from the mid/late-1800s. For what it is, the Revolvers are too much. They should be more “mobility-based” weapons with a bit less damage than they have now to make up for that, I think they’d be a lot more comfortable and reasonable that way.

Edit: I fixed some grammar.

1 Like
14

From a lore perspective sure. Think about it purely from gameplay balance though.

It is a 5 chamber, single fire, single reload gun.

If it was lore accurate (like it was in beta) it would do less damage than a lasgun.

It would be pointless in existing other than for challenge runs.

If we make things too lore accurate in general there would be no point in using anything other than power weapons with the things thrown at us especially since something like the plasma gun should be one shotting literally every enemy possible.

Game balance should come first more often than not.

2 Likes
15

In my opinion, the best way to balance Revolvers would be to bring down the damage by a little bit (not too much, just a little) and give them more mobility and ammo to make up for it. I do understand your balancing over lore perspective. It’d give Revolvers that awesome Gunslinger vibe and make them feel less like a Plasma Pistol with no overheating function.

6 rounds for each cylinder instead of 5 would be good, too - but that would require both cosmetic and animation changes.

1 Like
16

I think removing their ability to curbstomp carapace would be enough.

Its already a plenty mobile weapon. Wouldn’t benefit from an ammo increase in most situations.

To maintain weapon identity as a weakpoint/headshot weapon a higher finnese bonus wouldnt go amiss. It still has awkward breakpoints without crits.

2 Likes
17

It’s time for Arthur Morgan in space.

1 Like
18

To address your issues in order:

1:
Vets aren’t even remotely underpowered. The biggest fundamental difference to before the Oct 3:rd’s class overhaul is that where vets used to be completely overtuned with tons of passives and several unique crazy strong feats/talents & weapons that made them about the best and easiest ranged AND melee at the same time, now they have the same weaknesses as every other class. You need to build into what you do. For example if you focus exclusively on ranged, you will be godly at it, but it will leave you very vulnerable in melee.

Still, vets built right are ridiculously strong. And even the melee builds have access to talents and weapons other classes can only dream of, making them still crazy strong at ranged. A great example of this is the mostly right lane melee vet with Plasma, who combines crazy strong melee with extreme attack speed, crits & dmg, while still having that Plasma for making every ranged, special and elite trivial from max range. No other class can do that.

2:

  • Plasma has infinite cleave.
  • It consumes 3/9 ammo per light/heavy shot. Almost everything dies 1-2 shots. While oggies typically take 3, the lights build up less heat than 1 heavy while giving you 3x more opportunities to cleave through other mobs through various angles including 3x odds to proc talents. So you should almost exclusively use lights only outside of special circumstances.
  • Since a Plasma with ~80% ammo has around 270 ammo total, that’s 90 shots. For revolvers, Zarona has 57 ammo, Agripinaa 87.
  • The Agripinaa revolver in general is a very different type of weapon not suitable for long range precision takedowns like Plasma, so comparing the two is pretty pointless.
  • Revolver clip size is 5, Plasma has 135/3 = 45.
  • Plasma’s light shots autovent on 100% heat, and venting in general is trivial once you get used to it, so it almost never requires reloading mid-fight.
  • Zarona depends on Hand-Cannon and typically Surgical for those elite/crusher takedowns, Plasma doesn’t. So the revolver sacrifices 2 blessings, needs time to set up, and only has the clip size to take down 1-2 crushers before a long reload. Plasma can be built whichever way you like and it can still easily deal with 10x as many crushers without issues.

The revolver is in no way even close to being comparable to Plasma in terms of power, cleave, or ammo & clip size. Its only advantage over Plasma is that it’s mobile, fast to equip, fire and kill. It’s a fantastic weapon ofc, but to say that it’s better than Plasma is just wrong on so many levels.

3:
The locks are annoying yes. But tbh the crafting locks, lack of a real mission selector, RNG stores, variable AI & in-mission enemy and resource spawns etc. all exist because the game has very little content. Darktide is all about replayability, making as much use of the little that is there as possible.

If you don’t think about the big picture, then sure just flat out removing the locks would on a personal level feel like a great idea. But it would lead to far more damage in the long run. If they did that, all endgame progression would come to a halt as everyone would have god-roll versions of every gear they wanted so there’d be no need to grind for better ones, check the stores, do the weeklies etc. Worse, no-one who was geared up would care one whit about the materials in missions, or even mission success since it no longer matters, causing the community to split into players who ignore everything and just rush to deal with their boredom vs. newer players who now were forced to stay behind on their own to get any loot for their gearing at all.

All in all it would make many of the game’s gearing mechanics completely obsolete, while making people leave en masse as older players got bored and newer players had to deal with grinding everything on their own in every mission.

Improving the gearing and our agency would be great ofc. But only if it’s done realistically in a way that meets both the player’s and Fatshark’s needs.

1 Like
19

Just because the Plasma Gun does more damage doesn’t mean the Revolver isn’t broken. The Revolvers are broken because the Zarona performs like a Plasma Pistol with no overheating function, and the Agripinaa has more damage than some Shotguns whilst also having a higher rate of fire than said Shotguns.

Revolvers should be weapons that you can dodge and weave with even more than you can right now, and carry more ammunition with, at the cost of overall damage - especially against Carapace.

3 Likes
20

Yes I remember that one time this game called L4D and L4D2 launched without progression, and after 2 weeks no one was playing them any more.

It’s the same for PvP games, too. I think like 20 years ago or something, some obscure company launched a game called Counter Strike, without progression, and it instantly died.

6 Likes