Right. There are modules that are necessary QOL, but they’re split off and require point investment. None of the other operatives have to deal with this.
The other modules are just bonus and optional. That’s how all of the modules should be, but they aren’t.
Me too, since Keystones are typically too taxing and/or good enough to warrant their use.
If Vet used the same design philosophy as the other classes for Keystones…
Marksman’s Focus would just be a massive buff to chaining headshots - not even kills, just hitting weak points repeatedly. It’d come with modules to improve your other skills and reward you even further.
Focus Target would be basically a copy-paste of that one Witchfinder talent with additional nodes to let you ‘tag’ multiple enemies.
Weapons Specialist would probably just be rebuilt around parrying and blocking attacks, or some other aspect of melee - the reloading mechanic is neat but doesn’t suggest easy alternatives lol
Hmm… I got the impression that veteran players have simply come to terms with their disadvantage and play “better bad than nothing”…
I used to understand that sentiment until I started to pioneer the Mk VII Shovel + Plasma Gun + Frag Grenade + Voice of Command + Survivalist build.
It’s… It’s beautiful. I’ve top-fragged almost every round.
It’s not really true. There are things to complain about but Shout is overpowered with the toughness module and Infiltrate builds are very reliable in the right hands. Melee vet builds on the right can hit 60% brittleness on enemies very quickly, meaning they can use any weapon they want to deal with virtually any threat.
The left side is just lacking for a variety of reasons, and it’s not so much the issue with Keystones and more that they keep nerfing and spreading out ranged damage without addressing the other passives that are antithetical to game design (ie getting 2 or 3 of your passives disabled because you’re within 8m of an enemy).
Meanwhile I’m running shovel, agrip revolver, VoC, and kraks to become mister HIGH NOON
McCree (Astra Militarum version)
After the rework Veterans are closer to decent but it’s still the weakest class of the four.
Naw, man. Not even close. Psyker has some struggles atm if they aren’t assail.
Vet requires the most sweat to work though.
We’re tied with oggy boi if you don’t consider effort, but if you do you can consider the fact that ogryn has a hard cap on his apm with slow weapons and movement so even if you try to sweat it up you can’t.
Zealot is massively ahead of everyone at least with evis and dagger builds power wise though, but nerfing the whole class for maybe 1% of zealots would be dumb. Especially in a PvE game.
I personally think that vet is the strongest of the 4 with good team support though. We have the best sustained DPS. Just resource hungry.
EDIT: Worth mentioning that even though vet is fine power wise we are also constrained by real choice for build effectiveness.
It’s pretty much VoC or bust. MF is barely useable, and certainly not reliable for single shot weapons and weapon specialist is just meh.
Honestly so much varies by build and weapon loadout I’d be hard pressed to say which class is “the weakest” atm. Ogryn’s definitely got the strongest talent tree. While vet, psyker, and zealot all have various flaws and achilles heels.
Psyker is the weakest for sure
The veteran isn’t awful, and I don’t think I’d call any class “weakest” or “strongest” currently.
The Veteran talent tree however still isn’t great, but it’s at least not totally stupid now. The Patch 13 and 14 iterations really had no business being released live. The Patch 15 build is useable, but still feels like it was designed by someone making a tabletop turn based RPG and not a fast paced first person shooter.
The biggest problem is the Keystones. They have a much higher skill floor than those of almost any other class, while simultaneously being less necessary. Most of the Keystones from other classes are entirely passive or can be triggered by teammates actions. Stuff like Empowered Psionics, Righteous Fury, Feel No Pain, Warp Siphon, Lucky Bullet, etc are either just always on or can be proc’d even if the player themselves does literally nothing. They all really notch the gameplay of their builds as well and just apply generally to anything one does. They don’t require the player to do things like stand still and aim for headshots or to artifically swap weapons to get use out of them.
As a result, I don’t even bother running a Keystone at all on most of my Veteran builds.
The secondary problem is the Abilities. Right now Voice of Command is just way more important and useful than any of the others, the resiliency and survivability it brings are insanely valuable. This ability saves runs over and over. Executioner’s Stance requires too many nodes to fill out, does nothing to aid survivability, and again is best used utilized hitting specifically weakspots, making it tricky to often get consistent value out of, it really wants a spot where you can park an blast away without interruption, which isn’t often. Infiltrate likewise lacks the raw teamplay utility of VoC, and mostly serves to dump agro off you onto teammates which isn’t always helpful.
maybe a few more opportunities to cross from one branch of the tree to another for more mix n match is all i can think of for vets right now
Veteran is incredible rn. One of the strongest choices. If we were making a raw power tier list it would be ogryn, vet, zealot, psyker. Not sure the vet should be highest priority for another rework.
Because it’s not as fun as it once was or could be and the keystones are contrived, situational, and underwhelming in comparison to the other classes.
Next question?
Exactly like i said, the “rework” was just a massive overbuff and now we’re back with a Veteran Main Character infestation, generally but not exclusively sporting their Plasma Gun noobtube
A game without a Veteran is a good game, the old pre patch 14 standard is back
That’s um…quite the tier list.
Why isn’t zealot at the top? You know the class that has been proven to solo Twins hardmode, and solo … basically anything the game can throw at it.
Why is ogryn the highest? The class is durable and very high damage, but big, and slow. It has hard capped APM. This massively limits what they can do.
Vet being 2nd might be correct with some builds, and is great for teamplay. I can see that. Realistically I’d tie them with ogryn.
Psyker being lowest is probably true, but my perspective is skewed since gunpsyker is very tanky with autogun chaincrits while also having no aim required homing projectiles on a 3 second cooldown that can shred any pack of non-armored units for zero effort.
The balance is almost there now that I think about it other than the huge gap for zealot, but that’s only at the current highest echelon of play.
They probably don’t need nerfs incase anyone thought I was alluding to that. There’s always going to be a best class, and zealot being that class is fine.
A lot has changed except smokes are still OP. 
So you’d switch zealot and ogryn in my list, huh? Cool. I thought they fixed the sprint stealth CD bug.
Why is ogryn so high IMO? The sheer damage, durability, stagger. You have a laundry list of guns that can one shot disablers through trash that dont require much aim. You can one shot crushers in melee. You can literally push down ragers. Obviously isnt an exhaustive list of reasons, but if you can resist the urge to spam dodge you’re basically unstoppable.
I put vet and ogryn around the same level, too, really. Lists though, y’know.
I think the zealot is good, but I just can’t agree they are the strongest. I agree they have a higher skill ceiling than ogryn. The speed and dodge count makes them the fastest paced class, which is dope. Plus, they are second most durable. But a solid 3rd for me. Name me a niche that isnt running fast and dodging a lot and the vet and ogryn can do it better.