Ratling... trailblazer class?

I think people have a really good point when they say a Ratling Sniper class is a tough sell for their height alone, because a character whose main purpose is hitting long-range shots is gonna have a tough time if they can’t see over all the waist-high cover – to say nothing of tallfolk getting in the way. Of course, if one were get to high ground or even stand on some boxes, height wouldn’t matter as much. That’s just not always possible.

Ratlings aren’t only known for being good snipers, though. They’ve got a whole section on the 40k wiki about their role as “trailblazers,” who use stealth to outwit their foes, or ambush them if it comes to that. In-game, I look at all this waist-high cover and think about how fun it would be to play a fast, wily little guy with a shotgun and a hatchet, weaving between all that junk and forcefully removing heretics’ kneecaps, or setting up traps in chokepoints. Plus, they’re a great candidate for a reject, given how often they’re accused of stealing, smuggling, and the like.

They could have some sort of stealth ability as their Career Skill, and a throwable trap as their grenade. (A bouncing betty? Electrified netting?) They’d probably be pretty good at reviving teammates safely if their stealth ability lasted long enough, and given how small they are, they might even be able to pass through enemies while their stealth is active. To avoid a VT2 Huntsman situation, though, I think their Career Skill would have to have some additional function – maybe stunning nearby enemies when stealth begins/breaks, or leaving behind a taunting decoy as a distraction.

Their weapons could include a ranged DoT weapon like a dart gun, and perhaps one with an alt-fire that has them toss a throwing knife, in addition to whatever they could borrow from other classes. (The revolver, maybe.)

Anyway, if Ratlings are at all in the cards, I acknowledge it’s probably gonna be awhile before we see them, given FS is doing crisis management right now. I just want to keep the idea afloat out here, and express my interest in that particular playstyle and flavor of power fantasy. I think there’s room for it, and I’d definitely shill out money for it.

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Apart from mechanical problems as you mentioned, there is also a thematic problem.

They have already said month ago that additional archetypes weren’t in the current plans, but that they weren’t closing the door on it.

Now on Ratling, Ratling don’t bring anything that can’t be brought be other ways (easier/cheaper):

  • Class thematic: Most if not all the Class that a Ratling could bring could be brought by the Veteran → No unique theme
  • Mechanic requisite: Apart from size, there isn’t anything that he would be the only one that can bring it, in addition, they aren’t really known to use melee weapon afaik
  • Additional/Bonus: There is no special weapon (Sniper, both in Stubber and Neddler, are used by non-Ratling), and special cosmetic (Not much Ratling art, there are some but not many, like the Blackstone mini)
To show lore/rpg classes for the Ratling:




So if we get future Archetype it’s in the 2nd or even 3rd place for the likely ones

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Ahh, good points. Thanks for the info on the devs’ statements on new archetypes. I know it would be cheaper and easier for FS to give Ratlings’ thematic abilities to the Veteran, but it’d be such a wasted opportunity, given how Ratlings are the sorta utmost in their areas of expertise – at least while still fitting into the role of a reject. (There might be better snipers and scouts in the Imperium, like the Vindcare Assassins, or Space Marine Scouts, but I dunno).

Plus, there’s no official digital media I know of that features the lil’ guys. It would be a first for the franchise!

As for them not being known for melee, it looks like the Trailblazer gets a mono-knife (and optional melee profieciency) in the RPG, but that’s about it. Doesn’t mean FS couldn’t add more, though, along with some unique weapons; in the same way Ogryns need specialized weapons for their size (not to mention their intelligence), maybe Ratlings would need lightweight weapons with lower recoil, or they’d use a few weapons tallfolk would underestimate or overlook. Crossbows, spears, survival hatchets, war boomerangs, taser batons, and the like. And maybe they would have to two-hand weapons tallfolk would wield in one, granting them a different moveset. Just spitballing.

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I very much wanna see Ratlings added in. I feel the argument of “Veteran can do everything a Ratling can do” is very much small brain.

Zealot and Ogryn both have a large Melee, close range focus and both have a charge ult. But each has enough attributes to their builds that make them unique play styles regardless of the similar build possibilities.

Ratling Trailblazer, Sniper, Gunner, Assassin, whatever else should be something everyone wants to see implemented because its just not seen anywhere else! But instead say small brain things like, “there isnt much source material to base off” but there is man.

I see it all the time and it blows my mind so many people wanna limit everyone else’s flavor and variety by repeatedly claiming “Veteran covers that” there by shooting down other players hopes for a game they enjoy. Sit down, shut up, dont play the Ratling when it comes out. Play your super wonderful, beloved, Veteran class.

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And a Ratling is not a Skaven, its just a Tolkien Halfling in Space dialed to 11. All they do is eat and f…procreate. They got small by centuries of inbreeding in abundant food planets, which hypercharged their metabolism, causing them to be constantly hungry.

They are trained as snipers, because that is the only thing they are good for. The Lore explicitly mentions them being poor combatants and the only reason the Imperium uses them as Snipers is because they have no other use for them and every regular guardsman that is forced to spent some time next to them wants to kill them… which is why they operate as independent, irregular forces capitalizing on their diminutive size.

There are no Ratling Gunners… no Cloak and Dagger wielding Assassins… they aren’t even scouts, because they are to bird brained to be trusted with any important task.

2nd Edition, which provides the best description we ever got of them, has this to say about them:

"Ratling or Halfling are one of the few human descended mutant strains that are broadly tolerated within the Imperium. They are characteristically short and slightly built, not particularly serious minded and generally peaceable. These qualities do not make for good warriors, but none-the-less they contribute troops to the Imperial Guard armies alongside their larger and stronger cousins.

They have one considerable ability as soldiers which is that they are remarkable good shots. Also their small size enables them to move stealthy in close terrain where larger troops might have more difficulty. These traits mean they ideally suited for the role of sniper, and it is in this capacity that they are recruited into the Imperial Guard."

The are “stealthy” because they are small and they are good shots. They suck as fighters otherwise, because they are peacable and not very serious minded.

And that is why they do not provide anything the Veteran doesn’t already do. Veteran is already a “Sniper” and there are no Close combat specialist Ratlings that somehow do Camouflage better than the Veteran.

And yet you don’t make any better arguments for why they should be added beyond “but i wanna”. It is amazing how you insult everyone that doesn’t agree with your position as “small brain” but do not provide any actual counter argument.

The source material we have makes it very clear that they ain’t suited for violent tasks, they are not reliable to be scouts and the only thing they are good at is being small and shooting. The later being covered already by the Veteran Class, who could easily be turned into a gunner if Fatshark wanted to give them the Backpack Batteries of the Scab Gunners, to supply a hot-shot las.

Except both give access to weapons that we couldn’t otherwise.

With Ogryn getting heavier ones, and the Zealot getting weapons that the Imperial Guard doesn’t often use (And let them use Imperial religion stuff too).

On the other hand, Ratling don’t use/have weapon in the lore that is unique/exclusive to them, neither do they have abilities that are clear marked.

The problem isn’t that it’s impossible to make, it’s that they don’t bring much for the work that they require, unlike for example an Admech archetype

I’d rather see additional subclasses before a new archetype. And when we get a new archetype I’d like some kinda cyborg like an admech. With some neat, high tech weaponry from mars.

Subclasses, in Vermintide were necessary because you could only have any given hero once on your team. This meant you had to give at least some of the other Heroes a subclass that mimicked what the others brought to the table.

Meaning because you could only have one Kerillian with her bow, you had to give a Ranged Class to Kruber and Baradin to ensure that if two people wanted to play Ranged they would have an option to do so.

Meanwhile in Darktide the Veteran does have Kerillian’s Wayfinder additional Ammo, Baradin’s ability to generate ammo for the team and so on and so forth. The Veteran in Darktide has basically assumed all the subclasses into itself and you also do not need to create a melee version of the Veteran, because that is what you got a Zealot for.

You don’t need to have the Veteran shoehorned into a Melee Class, when people just can change over to Zealot, because you can, if you so desire, run the game with 4 Zealots.

That being said, i do hope we’ll get a 4th and maybe a 5th Talent for each level to select from, to increase the number of potential builds.

But if i were to have to choose, then i’d much rather have new Archetypes that do actually different things, instead of shoehorning the Veteran into a Discount Zealot or Ogryn.

No. Currently there’s only one veteran, the sharpshooter. Only one zealot, the preacher.

I want different specs for the classes.

I don’t care about vermintide, I didn’t enjoy that game.

A new subclass should come with a new list of talents, and a different ability, possibly grenade.

An archetype is just that—an archetype, a way to play. They already have all the archetypes: shooter, melee, heavy, and caster. Or, mid range, close range, long range, and heavy weapons.

The subclasses are the actual classes. Sharpshooter, preacher, etc.

They should work towards 3 classes for each archetype. 3 shooter classes, 3 melee classes, 3 psyker classes, and 3 heavy classes.

An admech could be cool as a summoner/defender archetype, with a skill that constructs a turret at a location for a duration. Or even drops a bubble to protect from gunfire.

But to add a sniper class wouldn’t fit well because sniping isn’t especially useful, and it’s already covered by the psyker and sharpshooter. The psyker is the long ranged archetype, glass cannon, that a sniper would be.

Iirc, the careers were there because both the Dev and the community loved the U5, and they wanted to be able to introduce more things from Warhammer Fantasy, while keeping the loved characters.

Both in VT2, and i hope, in Darktide, the careers/classes are there to complete different themes, not to simply give different focus (Melee/Ranged/Support/…), that can be seen with the Additional careers, where Bardin already had a Ranged career, or Kruber who already had a melee focused career

I rather get new class themes, or maybe only one or two rows which get a 4th talent (Eg: 10; 20;30)

There are ways to make classes for each that do not simply make them bridges between the different archetypes:

Vet:

  • Squad Leader (Leaked):
    → Blitz: Krak Grenades
    → Ability: Support stuff

  • Stormtrooper:
    → Mechanic: 3rd weapon as ability
    → Blitz:Impact Grenades/Plasma Grenades
    → Ability: Helgun (Act like the Outcast Engineer’s clatter gun)

Zealot:

  • Redemptionist:
    → Mechanic: Get buff from nearby enemies on fire
    → Blitz: Fire grenade
    → Ability: Self Burn

  • Crusader:
    → Mechanic: Tanky
    → Blitz: Suppression Aura
    → Ability: Something

  • Enforcer:
    → Mechanic: Bounties/Elites killing give buff/quests
    → Blitz: Concussion grenades
    → Ability: Cyber Mastiff

Psyker:

  • Biomancer:
    ->Mechanic: Keep Warp charges, but gain them differently
    → Blitz: Smite/Bio-Lightning
    → Ability: Warp Speed: Slow enemies (Like Adrenalin in other games)

  • Gunslinger (Leaked):
    → Blitz: Telekine Knives
    → Ability: Don’t remember

  • Protatorate (Leaked):

  • Blitz: Not sure anymore

  • Ability: Shield generation

Ogryn:

  • Gunlugger (Leaked)
    → Blitz: Not sure
    → Ability: Ranged stance (Ranged attack buff iirc)

  • Bodyguard:
    → Blitz: Toughness generation/Aggro pull
    → Ability: Something

Actually, archetype is just backstory/origin, voice lines/personality, and cosmetics

So you could have a Melee Veteran or a Ranged Zealot, if there are themes that would warrant it

And then it can be an entirely new Archetype instead of just a subclass. For example a Deathcult Assassin, with their own dedicated personalities and cosmetics, giving you some of that assassin goodness, instead of somehow shoehorning it into a Zealot subclass, making them look like a preacher.

By that definition the Subclasses for the Archetype Classes then could never not be what the Archetype demands it to be. In the case of the Veteran, nothing about its personality really lends itself to a different Archetype. There are no “melee” Guardsmen. You can try to shoehorn it in, by suggesting its some Tanith or Catachan type of deal, where they have trademark close combat weapons for stealth operations… but there are no type of Veteran that should walk into the frey to murder things in melee.

And this would add actual variety to the game and not just retreading the same ground. The issue with Subclasses is that nothing about the Class changes. Its still the same cosmetics, the same personality. Ultimately it will be shoehorned in.

Except the Psyker is nothing of the sort. They are a force multiplier support class. This misconception of the Psyker being a glass cannon is one of the major issues with a lot of people playing Psyker.

I completely disagree. The Shieldmaiden for Kerillian is just a slightly more agile Shield Tank and the Shade is this stupid single target damage dealer that doesn’t really fit into the game at all. And the … whats the Nature caster called again? Well aside from being a DLC character, she feels like entirely shoehorned onto the character to have a 2nd caster in the roster.

I don’t feel like they really added much beyond preventing arguments among Premades for Player A wanting to play the tank, but player B having already picked Baradin’s Berserker or Kruber’s Knight.

But the Heroe’s Personalities in Vermintide also don’t really chaff against the subclasses. Why Kerillian would have a Darkelf subclass is beyond me, when she could instead have had a shadow class.

Works for me. And i see no reason why one of those Talents couldn’t change the Class special ability.

I so hope that is not true. The current Frag grenades already feel like Krak, due to the small area of effect… and Krak are anti-armor grenades, which generally have a really small area of effect to break armor.

This would suck so much.

That would suck even more. I am all for adding a Helgun to the game, but it shouldn’t be an ability you carry around with you… like its some secondary weapon. Thats a bit like a soldier running around with an M4 carbine and belt fed Ares Shrike 5.56 on their back.

This sh…tuff should stay in Fantasy. There is nobody setting themselves on fire, unless they are some warp spawn (like the Avatar of Khaine), in 40k.

Does not fit the Zealot in the slightest. Especially not because that is an Ogryn personality/background.

We already have lightning in the game and it sucks… and slowing enemies? Just… why?! No need to make the game more boring than it already is. Can you imagine the amount of people complaining about this, given the amount of people already complaining about how easy the game already is?

Doesn’t gel with the current Personalities…

That is the only i can imagine to be accurate, given that for some ridicilous reason one of the Psyker personalities is an enforcer… (Seriously Fatshark? A Psyker Enforcer… have you read the lore of 40k?)

And that is the main reason i do not believe these “leaked” classes to be accurate or credible, but a holdover from development. Given that the “Gunlugger” is fully present and incorporated into the Ogryn today. Gunluggers are also a name developed by Fantasy Flight games, who no longer have the license for 40k Pen&Paper, and they do not appear in the official source material. Making the “gunlugger” at best a nickname for an Ogryn glued to their Stubber and Ripper guns, firing until the ammo runs out. And we already have that in the game. I also highly doubt Fatshark can get the name approved by Gamesworkshop or Fantasy Flight Games.

We have all the Ogryn “ranged” guns in the game too.

Leaving aside that it doesn’t work in the confines of 40k… why would you want any of this? Just log onto your Zealot when you want to play melee and your Veteran when you want to play ranged.

Darktide has no more limitation that bars you from playing the Zealot when you want to play melee, because everyone can play Zealot if they want to.

Instead of keep clamoring for pointless subclasses, we really should be asking for more Archetypes with truly unique playstyles. There is 0 reason why we need a melee focused Veteran subclass when you can just play Zealot. All they need to do is add a few more talents into the tree, like say a “burn” grenade for the Zealot instead of the stun grenade… much like the Ogryns Box of Hurt talent modifies their Grenade. Why you’d want a “burn” grenade is beyond me, given how bad burnstacks are these days, but hey… going that route to add more diversity to the class, while actually working on proper additional archetypes, seems the much better way to go.

You can go completely balls to the wall with new Archetypes… from Gunservitors, to Deathcult Assassins, to Techheretics, to even Van Saar Type Archeotech mercenaries, all with their own Cosmetics and feel and style… you don’t need to shoehorn this stuff onto existing Classes.

Then it need to increase the work load by a huge margin:

  • New VA, either 3 or 6 (Depending on whether they do 1 or 2 genders, or even something else)
  • New cosmetic line (Not Penance related as that would happen with a class anyway, but Premium)
  • New Voice lines for every other archetype (Moreso than if happen as Class

Take an Enforcer (Easier to explain with).
You make it a Zealot Class, as Penance gear you give it Enforcer looking armour (Taking inspo of Necromunda) and Arbites ones, and a Premium cosmetic set would appear as Arbites Looking

And while yes, they would use a common pool of Voice lines, they would also have Class voice lines that fit their class, and while yes people would be able to use cosmetics that don’t look like Enforcers, it would be their own choices.


Both which would be possible inside the Veteran archetype.

Sister of the Thorn

Well it worked well in VT2 with the OE, and it’s the only way to make it appear while not making the Lasgun (And Autogun too) just become a worse version of it. Making it a Class feature would let it become something that can be balanced on different ways, while making it powerful and lore accurate still.

While Psyker do have a personallity that was an Enforcer (maybe Detective, some are), it shouldn’t prevent Enforcer/Arbites to be a themes for a class, even if they need to use a different name (Like Ward, Protector, Regulator, Arbitrator, or one of the specialists, like Chaplains, Chastener, Mortiurge…, or even a new invented name)

Just because we already have it and it’s not optimal doesn’t mean it need to be abandoned, it should get some buff/balance. As for the Slow, it’s only for limited time and it can be cool, if we don’t want it to slow enemies, maybe simply making it act as the Speed Pot would also work to emulate it.

What ? That make no sense

Have you ? Cause after their 5 year (Sometime less when it’s young ones who can be sent to the SM/GK or those that get sent to get munched by the Emp) in the Adeptus Telepaticus they get sent to various specialized Psyker training places, some Enforcer and Arbites are noted as Psykers (usually Detectives), and nothing has marked that Psyker aren’t used by them too.

What make you think that way ?

Heavy Bolter, Multi Las, Autocannon, Lascannon could be brought, though no previous lore for it

Why ? VT2 referenced a lot of Rpg lore, and the other way too (With the Red Moon Inn, Lohner and even stat pages for the U5) so DT (And Rogue Trader) most likely will too except for specific cases, Like Drachenfels (The sorcerer, not the castle) and Malal)


Cause there are things that can be done with 1 archetype that can’t be done with another.

Like while Veteran Sharp is ranged focused, it wouldn’t make sense to have Zealot Death World veteran, which would likely be a melee focused class

Death World Veterans:


Death World Veteran - Warhammer 40k - Lexicanum

Except that there are things that can easily be added by classes which need much less work than new archetype do, meaning we can get them much faster than what archetype would An we already know FS isn’t speedy

It’s not that we need a melee Veteran, it’s that people want Stormtrooper, Commissar… Veteran
Or Crusader, Death Cult… Zealot

It’s not about having every archetype be possible of acting all the roles, it’s about filling themes from the 40k setting.

  • Gunservitor: F#ck no, they aren’t sentient and at most should either be something summonable for a Tech adept or as something for a mission
  • DC Assassin: No reason to make them a new archetype when they could simply be a Zealot Class (Just as previously said, having new penance cosmetic, new weapons and some appropriate class voice lines)
  • Tech-Heretic: No, they would get executed by the Admech, Tech Adept are more appropriate
  • Van Saar: While Van Saar are Necromunda exclusive, and shouldn’t apprear, there are Reclaimator, who can certainly have Archeotech, but would be a good class theme for a Tech Adept class

Even if we take the requested archetype that people most want, with is Admech, we should get more than 1 class, that way we have multiple playstyle, while still being inside a theme that people want to play

I maintain that Ratling could merely be a body type for Veteran Sharpshooter.

In the same way that the Ogryn could have been a Zealot Class

I mean, yes actually. But ratling is literally just an astra militarum soldier in flavor with a chamelioline cloak and a longlas or stubrifle.

Deadshot
The bigger they are
Camo
Etc.

He’s just a short vet.
In fact in most of the imperial guard tabletop books you could take Snipers and Ratling Snipers and they were basically the same.

Ogryn being their own archetype makes sense because there are Ogryn and Bullgryn squads on tabletop and Gunluggers from the lore and Only War books.

I mean yeah, he is a shorter Vet and doesn’t introduce anything exclusive/new (Which is why I’m against it being included)

But choosing it for a Vet class would not work

Why?

Cause they don’t share the same body type. It’s the same way that if they did the same thing in VT3 (Or another Fantasy game) and they made a Halfling class that is part of the Imperial Human Archetype.

Like none of the cosmetics would work properly, and voice lines wouldn’t either

Now that’s literally not a real problem.

  1. Not sharing cosmetics isn’t a negative its a positive.
  • new cosmetics to sell
  • head cosmetics should work just fine
  1. Voicelines literally just need to be tweaked
  • most of them are highly generic
  • voicepacks could just be recorded
  1. Fatshark could sell ratlings as a cosmetic expansion to the veteran sharpshooter class potentially

  2. No need to design and program an entire class, literally just some modeling and rigging at most. Probably just steal most things from Bardin tbh

This is the kind of derivative compounding low effort philosophy that darktide is built on.