But at that point, why not just take the plunge and make it a different archetype
Because new class feats and special abilities and unique grenades are a lot of programming work and what we described is mostly art.
I donât care either way tbh but iâm just advocating for the shortest path.
That is a good point. The cosmetics in both the docket and aquila shop are just labeled by archetype, not by class. Thereâs a good chance as it stands that cosmetics will be shared across all classes so I wouldnât expect any of the classes to be radically different from one another, just variants with different skill trees.
God what a mistake that would be.
OH LOOK ITS THE VETERANâŚsomething or other, who can even tell? They all look basically the same.
And when they are already needing to record voice lines, they can just do a proper new class, instead of stichting one together. The only argument for Subclasses is actually that they donât need new Cosmetics and Voice Lines. As soon as you introduce SubClass Specific Voicelines and SubClass specific Cosmetics you have officially reached the point where everyone would benefit more from a full Class release, with proper new Talents and Flair.
I really wish people would stop posting stupid 3rd Party Pen&Paper Bestiary Entries, that have to be given specific names to pad the content of said Pen&Paper entries.
No, there are no Imperial Guard Brawlers. The link you posted is from the Fantasy Flight Games produced RPG called Only War. It is entirely 3rd Party, entirely unsupported due to FF no longer having the license, and about as Canon as the Blood Ravens having holy relics of the Blood Angels to give to a random Squad in the field.
You are not sending in a Tallarn with a saber against a Howling Banshee or a Striking Scorpion, or even an Ork Boy and expect them to survive. Much like the Tanithâs shortsword sized âStraight Silverâ Blades they are cool trench weapons when fighting other humans but that does not make them Melee Veterans.
As for Commissars⌠sure a certain Baron of Munchhausen claims being able to go one on one with his fencing Skills against a Space Marine, but that still does not make a Commissar a Melee dependent fighter. They are commanding officers, that are expected to have lead their fireteams in positions where they gunned down the opposition before they even got close, or at least sufficiently weakened them to only have to dispatch some.
Commissarâs ainât Zealots with a two handed chainsword froting at the mouth as they mumble something akin to âmy faith is my shieldâ just before their faith is proven to be unable to stop a bolter round to the face.
As for the Commissar fitting the Personalities of the Veteran in game⌠no it does not. A third to half of the Ingame voice lines, even of the Professional Persona, are entirely irreverent of the Imperial Guard. And there are even personalities actively mocking procedure.
Starting with the fact that a Commissar does not go to jail, but would instead be sent to command a Penal Legion (where the chances for âfriendly fire incidentsâ are high) long before they would be stripped of command. And then going on to the fact that Commissarâs are Orphans that grew up indoctrinated for the position from a young age, and selected only from the most zealous and stalward of those children, it makes for a poor choice having a Commissar shout a âTraxis 07whateverâ line, as one of the Personalities does.
It just does not work the way it is set up. What they could do is Scion Class, with personalities that match those that grew up indoctrinated in the Schola, and then have Commissar be one of the Personalities, along side Tempestus and others. But it does not fit the personalities the Veteran has been given.
Not setting themselves on fire, are they? Having a flamer in your hat is not setting yourself ablaze. It is still immensely stupid and would lead to heatstroke, but at least its an official model, no matter how stupid it is. However, they ainât setting themselves on fire.
I disagree. I would find it very annoying, because there is only one way it can be feasibly done in a multiplayer game: It would be some âSlow bubbleâ that effectively stuns enemies inside the bubble.
You canât slow down the entire game to represent you speeding up. Because youâd have to effectively break the way everything works. It would either be griefing your teammates who ainât in Cohesion, by slowing them down too, which would lead to a mountain of complaints, or you would have to have the ability to work on all players even those not in cohesion, breaking established mechanics and rules.
It would trivialize content such as Daemonhosts, just Slow them and walk away from them. It wouldnât make sense in terms of ranged weapons. Every non light based weapon should not work normally, but instead have their bullets stuck in the air.
It is a cool effect for a single player game, but in a multiplayer game, for practicability reason its always just an area stun at best⌠or simply a Damage Debuff, if they ainât frozen in time but attack slower. In which case you slash their DPS by the amount of slow percentage. And that is just boring.
And i know, when you said slow, you likely were picturing the Pietro Scene from that one X-man movie, where everything is moving slower and you, the player, moving faster, with cool slomo effects⌠maybe bullets semi stopped with a bullet trail and whatnot⌠but that takes a lot of effort to code for what effectively nullifies the challenge of the game for a couple seconds.
The Psyker in Darktide is at least a Beta or Alpha level psyker. You can see this due to the mental instability of one personality and the number and ease with which Psypowers are displayed. A Beta or Alpha level psyker does NOT work as an Enforcer. That would be akin to having someone get their PHD in criminology by the age of 18 and then go work as a assistant deputy in a 15 people small town in Alaska. It is not happening. Psyker of such power levels will not get to be Enforcers in some backwater Planet. They would get to be Arbites or be recruited in any of the other much more prestigeous and deserving institutions. The Imperium wouldnât waste a Psyker of this power level on being in the local Governors private pet police department.
Letâs start with the fact that Gunlugger is once more just a Pen&Paper Bestiary Entry to give a set of stats to a ranged Pen&Paper enemy and they needed to name it a different way than just Ogryn B.
But mostly because there is no official source for them and they have 0 equipment that official Ogryns do not have available, or that arenât present in Darktide already.
The Gunlugger is entirely the creation by Fantasy Flight games for their RPG system, to give stats for their Bestiary Type entries. There is no first party resource for them, and even the description of the Gunlugger is basically just âthese type of Ogryns like the sound of their guns more than hitting things over the headâ.
While i agree that they could and should be brought in for the sake of Variety of Ogryn weapons, given the poor amount of weapon selection it has, i do not believe that this should be exclusive to a subclass⌠and none of these are traditional Ogryn weapons in the lore.
You will get a lot of people that are more lore purists than I am, who will complain about the Ogryn getting access to these weapons. But given the fact that we already have all Ogryn weapons in the game already and that we could need a few more for the sake of variety (and because i am tired of an Inquisitor being unable to hand out proper weapons so they have to run around with a pipe and a hexnut on it)⌠i wouldnât mind it at all.
Still, there is no âGunluggerâ weaponry, because there are no officially existing Gunlugger type of Ogryns. That was entirely a creation to pad out a Bestiary of a Pen&Paper system that is no longer in production.
And i am not a fan of Vermintideâs âloreâ, nor do i really care about that game (or rather both of them) or WH Fantasy in general (not since 3rd edition anyway). I do care about 40k and Darktide however, and iâd rather see it done properly than perpetuating nonsense. The situation is poor enough already.
Is not a creation for an Pen&Paper. Drachenfels has been part of the proper Warhammer Fantasy lore for a long time, its first âofficialâ mention was in the 1990 supplement Warhammer Compendium. It was brought in thanks to the novel of the same name as part of the Genevieve series the year prior. And while i usually do not count Novels as 1st Party lore (because that leads to issues of having to accept nonsense like the Dawn of War novels where Termagants are impervious to heavy bolter rounds), it was officially mentioned in a Codex in 7th edition along with the Necromancer who gave the Castle its name.
Deathworld Militarium Soldiers are no more melee focused than everyone else. Even Catachan are primarily a shooty type of army. They might be âstrongerâ than other soldiers, but they ainât melee focused. Just as example, in 8th edition having Catachan Soldiers would add 1 Str to their profile and 1 Leadership, but not change their Melee Stat. Thus making them only physically stronger, due to the demanding planet giving them a good workout.
And yes, i agree. It wouldnât make sense to have a Zealot be a discount Veteran. Just like it wouldnât make sense to have a Veteran be a discount Zealot. Which is precisely why i am arguing against Subclasses.
It would be much better for everyone involved if we got proper new Classes instead. They would add much more to the game. New Voice Line interactions, new cosmetics and visuals, and of course a new Class can be entirely built around new mechanics.
Pretty sure they have to be sentient in order to work. But i agree they are most likely not very sapient, but thats not so different from many Ogryn players that never let go of their weapon.
You can easily make a Gunservitor that has been left with more personality or has been given heretical implants (thus explaining why they are there) to make them more sapient/responsive. Not that they need to be sapient in the first place.
Nobody said anything that they need to do a stand-up routine in the middle of the mission. It is enough to have them give canned responses at appropriate times.
Instead of the Ogryn going âMetalface, what is your deal?â you can simple add a voice line âPredetermined Dataquerry point reached: Creator wishes to know Hadronâs true age. Will record for premission data collectionâ⌠or something along those lines. You can still give the robot destinct âpersonalitiesâ, they donât need to be sapient.
Every reason to make them a new archetype, otherwise they run around dressed like a preacher, spouting preacher lines. Instead of giving all the people that want the Vindicare, Evasor and Callistus Assassins dedicated personalities, cosmetics and voice lines.
Deathcult doesnât need to be zealots. All they need to be is loyal to the emperor and having a set of believes that removing certain people from the world will lead to a betterment of said world.
Letâs start with the fact that they would not get executed by the Admech, if the Inquisitor finds them first or if they had the backing of a noble house. Van Saar is a good example of a Noble house that is basically all Techheretics. It is a misrepresentation of the 40k Background to assume that the Imperium isnât just the Roman Empire where everyone can do whatever they want as long as the tithes are paid and they have the influence and power to stave off the influence of others. The Admech might not like a lot of people messing with technology and more often than not Admech will hunt down Techheretics, just like the Imperial Creed will hunt down heretics⌠but at the end of the day they are just factions within the empire and if the Inquisition finds a Techheretic which skill is deemed useful then the Admech can do F-all about it.
New Classes also provide the option for new intro sequences, and thus you can explain anything you want. You can have literally a shuttle land and some Inquisitorial Troopers debark leading the Techheretic on board with the words âthe inquisitor thought this individual will be usefulâ.
Also, if we argue like âOrganisation X would have just executed themâ then it also applies to the Commissar you wanted, as i pointed out earlier. Commissars wouldnât get to be âcriminalsâ either. They get sent to a backwater power, downgraded to the PDF, sent to a command a penal force or get executed. They would never be stripped of their rank and sent as ârejectâ. It is the same kind of argument. And i am fine with that. I am fine with never seeing a Commissar. I am also good on not seeing a Techheretic.
I however believe there is more utility and options in getting proper new classes than just derivates of existing ones via subclasses. And if we are already asking for something, why lowball it? Why being fine with a knock-off option? If it requires new mechanics and voice work⌠then why not go the full distance?
I didnât say i want Van Saar in the game, did I? I used Van Saar as an widely known example of existing possibilities when it comes to Archeotech. You could easily tie this in with the Techheretic.
1 Like
Whether or not you consider it cannon is not my problem, itâs that FS (And GW) accept it as cannon, and seeing as they are putting Gun Lugger in for the Ogryn, I would say that they are.
Not sure if there is need for a new sword type, but it could be a good skin for a Catachan knife or sword.
I never said it would be a Melee only class, just that it would be less focused on ranged than Sharpshooter.
Unless you make the speed up affect allies too, and doesnât has to slow everything to a crawl, just enough to be noticeable.
Well then go complain to Abnett and GW if you know that so well.
If you dislike Only War, itâs your choice, but itâs a valid source, always was, just like how VT2 took inspiration on the Rpg.
And they did give new weapons that the Ogryn in the TT didnât have before, like the Multilas and the Heavy Bolter (Also TT isnât everything)
You can be a lore purist all you want, but the various Rpg are valid lore sources unless it create conflict with books or codexes
Thatâs why classes shouldnât be done simply to fit a role but to lean on a lore theme (Even Rpg Lore). A Ranged Zealot wouldnât simply make it a Veteran Sharpshooter
Those are Officio Assassins, not Death Cult ones, and they would make no sense alongside the rejects.
Death Cult are a type of Zealot, itâs what they are.
As for the Tech Heretic, just bring a Tech Adept, and put in 3 classes that lean on 3 different themes from the Admech and everybody will be happy
Making an Archetype for 1 class every time would be unsustainable if you donât understand that itâs useless talks
1 Like
I would like a source for Fatshark accepting it as cannon (and no, a placeholder text on a datamined class is not a source for them accepting it as cannon), and i also want one that says Gamesworkshop accepts it as cannon.
Not only was it your response to my claiming there are no melee focused Imperial Soldiers thus suggesting that you consider the Commissar to be such (as it was your choice of counter to the claim) but also were we discussing Melee Focused Veterans at the point.
So yeah, you can try to shift the goalpost by adding the âonlyâ in there, but that doesnât change that nobody was talking about that, and the conversation has been about a Melee focused class. At which point it is not needed as we have the Zealot class to do that.
I mentioned that.
Dan Abnett and Matt Ward were only creative consultants, the story of this game and its background is entirely on Fatshark.
No, it isnât a valid source. Just like the existence of Malal is not a valid canon source. Despite the fact that GW writers keep putting easter eggs about the Sons of Malice into their codices. It is a fact that there is no 5th Great Chaos God called Malal anymore. Why is that relevant? Because Malal was also a creation of a Licensed Product. It, as well as other things such as the fact that there is a âBlood Ravensâ Space Marine Chapter in the official codex, but the Blood Angels still having their special relics and they havenât gone to some random Blood Ravens squad to be lost to Chaos⌠makes it very clear that the content of Licensed Products are not considered Canon.
Which is why Vermintideâs Plot also isnât canon, yet the existence of 5 unnamed Heroes saving the City is. And as such, it is very easy to look at this stuff and definitively say that until such a time that it actually gets included in an official Codex, it is not Lore, but simply information from a Licensed product without any information value beyond âneat curiosityâ.
Yes, the Tabletop is everything. It is what started this Universe, it is why the Universe exists and like it or not, it is the only unambiguously valid Lore that exists. Everything else is subservient to the official Gamesworkshop publications. That includes their daughter companies like Black Library and Forgeworld.
No, they are not. They are licensed Products and Gamesworkshop has a long history of ignoring every licensed addition to their lore for copyright reasons. Which is why, based on popular Licensed products, you will find acknowledgements that certain things existed, without getting any official details or support for it. Simply because Gamesworkshop recognizes that some people come to their game through licensed products and are fans of that 3rd party thing that would be disappointed if Gamesworkshop outright said ânone of that existsâ. Thus you get âeaster eggsâ and references, but that is the height of acknowledgement thus far. Unless you are the Tanith, which proves that you can get a product so popular it eventually gets added to the Codex with Models and everything. But they have been thus far the exception, not the rule.
Does not exist beyond what is already in the game. The best you could hope for would be a Confessor Sergeant, which is a Veteran who became a Preacher⌠in which case⌠just play your Veteran.
Nice how you cherry picked that, cutting off half the sentence. Also, allow me to correct my spelling mistake. It would be Callidus not Callistus. Callistus is something else. My bad.
My point was that people want to play as an Assassin. Proper Officio Assassinorum Assassins are way out of the scope of this game, but since the OA recruits from Deathcults you can very much make a Deathcult class that has aesthetics reminiscent of OA Agents, even if they would not be the real deal.
And, since you seem to like the FF Pen&Paper so much, this is also pretty much what the Assassin Class in the Fantasy Flight games is. Because they too understood that people want to play as OA Assassins, but that OA Assassins are way out of the scope of random newbies in an inquisitorial routine.
No, they are not. They are Fanatics but not Zealots. Zealot is the name given to members of the Frateris Militia. Deathcults worship through bloodshed. Among the officially existing Deathcult are for example the Faceless. They are basically a version of a lower tier Callidus.
One could say that they were heavily borrowed from Song of Fire and Iceâs Faceless Men, for who they are.
Long story short⌠Deathcults do not need to be Preachers. Zealots need to be.
Just make it a scout/pathfinder class; some ideas off the top of my head to make this work:
The vet archetype now is a pure DPS class that can also focus on buffing allies and debuffing enemies either through generating inane amounts of dakka for the team or being a grenadier.
-
Rework vet to no longer have camo and bio-optic targeting.
-
Make all of his weapons only have irons, including the las guns.
-
Give veteran a couple of new weapons, a autogun LMG, a lasgun LMG, a XM25-like grenade launcher with airburst prox nades, and rework one of the infantry autoguns to have an under barrel grenade launcher for its V attk.
-
Rework suppression mechanics so suppression immune enemies are now affected, although they still canât be suppressed, they now instead are debuffed by high suppression, like they take extra dmg or whatever.
-
Automatic fire weapons generate suppression as most weapons do now, semi-auto only generate suppression on kill. Rework suppression blessing to simply be a boost to the weapons suppression stat, if on a weapon only capable of suppression on kill, now its suppression on proximity like automatics instead.
-
Replacement feats for bio optic now instead boosts the teamâs weapon suppression stat in coherency, and reduces the suppression, reduce durability dmg from ranged teamates take when in coherency with the vet.
-
Replacement for camo gives the vet melee stagger and melee dmg resist on special kill for a set amount of time.
-
Buff covering fire again. Have it give temporary suppression immunity to allies affected, like the weapon blessings. Grenades now also apply covering fire buff.
-
Have bleed grenade feat give grenades extra suppression beyond its explosive radius.
-
Buff extra ammo iconic feat to give the vet a deeper ammo pool.
-
Nerf deadshot crit rate to 10 or 15% (from 25), but now has no stam cost on ADS, only on firing. Decrease stam cost by a further 5 to 10%.
-
Volley ability now give increased movement on ADS (up to parity when not in ADS) too, refreshes dodges and gives +1 when using ranged weapons. Lasts longer, has lower dmg.
Ratling as noted is a scout class that can either specialize as a ranged assasin (sniper) or pathfinder/scout with info support abilities and coherency buffs.
-
Ratling can parkour on climb points enemies use, allowing you to hang off of them briefly, or climbing up to places accessible only to enemies. Lightly highlighted to the ratling player.
-
All weapons accessible to the ratling, besides class uniques, are scoped or have holosights. But does not have access to heavy weapons like the bolter or plasma, or the new weapons suggested above.
-
higher base dodges, but only has access to light melee weapons, cannot use combat axes or chain weapons.
-
coherency aura gives weakspot dmg buff to the team, and dmg against enemies marked by the ratling with mid mouse button or bio optic. Can also manually mark up to 4 specials, and allows allies to mark up to 1 additional special.
-
Ratling gets camo as one of its iconic feats,
-
Other iconic feat gives the team a mini map. All enemies within the ratlingâs POV are show in alliesâ minimap when in coherency. Icons and colors distinguish between enemy types.
-
Team support feat section has three variants of bio optic targeting for the ratling, one highlights all non ogryn/mutant/bomber specials for everyone. Other highlights shooters plus regular specials as above. Third highlights only ogryns, bombers and mutants, and gives bonus melee dmg to allies in coherency. Maybe one of them also allows you to see where monstrosities (demonhosts included) will spawn
-
Ability and lvl 30 feats are the same as vet, but now also confer a fraction of the same advantages to allies within coherency on activation. Does not stack for vets, only stacks once for other ratlings.
-
Only can passively restore durability, but ranged attacks restore ally durability, basically has a slightly weaker covering fire feat as a iconic feat.
-
Blitz feat is a grappling hook that either stuns an enemy, allows you to briefly get ontop of an ally or allows you to pull yourself to a parkour point, has limited uses, replenished by nade boxes.
-
Volley equivalent works like vetâs, but bio optic feats decide what is marked instead. 1st lvl 30 feat instead of working like sustained fire, instead increases duration, and replenishes grappling hooks and allows you to hang off the roof for the duration of the skill. 2nd instead increases reload rate, and increases the penetration of your ranged weapon, certain weapons reach bolter and plasmagun level penetration of all cover. 3rd gives additional dmg, and degrades all marked enemy armor by 1 tier (eg. carapace>flak, etc.).
-
Have a feat that gives either nightvision or IR on ADS for yourself and friendlies on coherency.
1 Like
I didnt say the were actual rat ppl. I know they are the halfing like guys. They got them big hairy feet. The rat people are in vermintide.
If your imagination isnt that great then idk thats a you thing.
A lore perspective is a good argument to not add them. But i argued against âvet does thatâ bologna. On that note, id say its time the lore do something more with a Halfling type âraceâ add more flavor and fun. Ogryn is great, love them alot. Pyskers are tons of fun. Whats wrong with another fun thing?
Other commenters got real creative with ideas that make a Ratling fun and unique.
Climbing: allows them to go back up a point of no return for example.
Quick Eyes: allows them to tag multiple targets at once.
Swift Feet: moving through fire, sludge, whatever doesnt slow you down.
Roll With It: doesnt stagger when hit, bumped or pushed.
Bliz, Just A Bite: instead of a grenade, Ratlings have snacks, eating one giving them some health, toughness, and buffs them or anything else that would be cool.
Alt, Annoying Laugh: starts making a loud laugh and makes enemies flee the activation point for some seconds.
Theres so much fun to be had with such a thing.
So yes, people like you, i feel, act small brain by being so closed-minded and act like thereâre better in some way, because you can say no? Good for you.
(Sorry i took like a year to respond but im still in the same head space of Ratlings being something super fun and interesting to add.
Ive also been noticing alot of other things i thought to myself about being added to the game at the time of writing this. Almost like the game is still evolving and changing. 
Now theres sub types for each class, full new ideas and powers, that must get under your skin. Just sit back and enjoy the ride or feel free to get off.)
Small brain. Tons you could do with a unique people like Ratlings.
I already made a comment listing some ideas.
Dont be closed-minded. Its bumming me out.
I think Ratlings would be an amazing archetype.
I previously made a thread about my ideas:
Ideas that would in the most parts need either broad reworks or not even possible.
Climbing for example would be pretty pointless and just lead to maps needing to have even more player barriers to avoid making spots that the enemy canât path toward, or making spots that the Ratling player could dugout in.
Ratling donât introduce much, itâs the hard truth, and even Squats, which is something that Iâd quite like to see, probably arenât worth the hassle of making the maps work for the 3 PoV (Ratling/Squat, Human, Ogryn).
My post you replied to wasnât to prevent Ratling talks, but to explain that there is a much bigger difference between what a Zealot can introduce against what an Ogryn can, compared to what a Ratling can introduce against a Veteran.
Had you said Veteran vs Zealot then yes, Iâd have in some part have agreed, but not with the Ogryn (or the Psyker)
@Khorne_Dawg The person/comment I told you about when you mentioned Ratling as a Vet body type.