"Ranged" Classes' Ammo Sustainability

How do you view the current ability of each “ranged” class to sustain their shooting? Do you think they need to be rebalanced between each other, or does one function as an outlier in being too much, or not enough?

Got curious about what people’s thoughts are when I started to watch a Big Dom video about the Vraks IAG where he said only Scum makes it viable in Havoc due to excessive ammo consumption. It is kinda crazy imo how the talents compare with Scum’s Gunslinger, Desperado, and Pickpocket vs. Skit’s Restoration Pod & Vet’s Survivalist & Shocktrooper.

Veteran

  • Too Much
  • Slightly Too Much
  • Appropriate
  • Slightly Too Little
  • Too Little
0 voters

Hive Scum

  • Too Much
  • Slightly Too Much
  • Appropriate
  • Slightly Too Little
  • Too Little
0 voters

Skitarius

  • Too Much
  • Slightly Too Much
  • Appropriate
  • Slightly Too Little
  • Too Little
0 voters

Veteran: The issue is that in specific kinds of weapons it’s overtuned (lasguns because of Shocktrooper), others are semi ok (shotguns, revolver, plasmagun due to how they benefit from their “1 shot 1 kill nature”, meaning survivalist can keep up), and the rest are kinda poopoo regarding ammo sustain (automatic weapons)

Hive Scum: The only reason why anyone would Say “too much” it’s because how degenerate the Needle pistol is. I’ll keep repeating this, MAKE RAMPAGE NOT ABLE TO GET PICKPOCKET PLEASE I’M TIRED OF RAMPAGE NEEDLEGUN PICKPOCKET (and also reduce Needlegun max ammo to 30 reserve to encourage other ranged options with stimm crate)

Skitarii: Ammo wise it’s fine, Arc rifle is degenerate as a weapon however

this is 100% related to the weapons not really the class

weapons like iag and revolver simply cannot compete with the ammo efficiency of their counterparts

the fact that many ammo regen mechanics do not round up means that youll have to wait 30s to get 1 revolver shot on skitarii. kill me. meanwhile you will get 5 of arc rifle in that same time. cool and balanced. the phosphor pistol has like 25% more ammo than the revolver… for some reason.

lasweapons on vet are just infinite ammo, plasma has as many shots as revolver does and regens more through pickups for… some reason.

hive scum can pickpocket 20% of needle pistol ammo which does approximately 2.98372 million damage cumulatively, or you can pickpocket 20% for your iag and kill like 3 maulers. the choice is yours!!!

or play psyker and unlimited ammo flamethrower.

ranged in this game is kinda forked like that, you either have the sauce or you really really dont

Just need to change the low damage and low ammo ranged weapons, by fixing either. Non-DLC.

Would be nice to get a Shock Trooper equivalent for other guns too (same location). Probs not as strong though.

Skitarius is just too much with w/e the zapzapzap spam gun is.

Hive Scum, depends on how good the guns are as to whether or not it matters.

DLC class specific guns always seem better, for some strange reason. Our scientists are working hard on the answer.

Scum not consuming ammo while Desperado is active isnt fair for others; either make others same way or make Despaerado work like others.

Vet deserves to have some more ammo outside of las builds, like, additional 10-15% or just make the 25% talent give 35% instead. Exe Stance takes more effort to play than ranged Hive Scum, PBB Ogryn and Psyker, which all have better ammo economy or straight up infinite ammo WHILE ALSO having a greater damage potential. Also I would like to mention Arby’s dog build where the dog gets free kills without needing to spend any ammo. On auric dog + ranged build with Arby shotgun is stronger than Plasma Gun, while being way safer to play due to Castigator’s Stance and all the dog’s help.

Some of Vets ranged talents are super situational. While I understand that it’s for the balance sake and to force some variety, what ends up happening is that people don’t use them at all.

Killzone, Keep Your Heads Down, Opening Salvo, Covert Operative are all skippable talents, I’ll take +15% melee damage tax node over any of them EASILY.

Marksman punishes you for using Exe Stance for way too long, instead of rewarding the more skilled play of prolonging the cooldown continuosly (the talent should be, “any weakspot hits get 20% more strength for 10 seconds after using the ability or as long as your ability is active”). But you’re forced to take Marksman on some weapons like normal lasguns or Headhunter’s to have a chance at more instakill headshots. Without +mutant perk and some of the Vet’s damage talents, some guns might not even kill a flamer on headshot without a crit, which is ludicrous (!!!).

Lock and Load exists only for Double Barrel to give it +1 more shot, but the only double barrel build people play on Vet requires you to use Weapon Specialist for the guaranteed Manstopper crit, which means going in the other direction of the skill tree. So basically another dead talent node for most builds. I tried making it work with Agripinaa Revolver, but you’re better off taking anything else.

At the same time Skitarii’s 10% more ammo aura sucks. All the weapons I’ve tested benefit way more from additional rending and cleave aura way more, since they work both for melee and ranged weapons, and also by playing Combat Doctrines you can achieve nice penetration on multiple ballistic weapons.

Even if I play Skitarii + Vet comp on my team, I’d rather have the rending aura to improve killing Crushers and Maulers with melee weapon on Vet, which saves a lot of ammo in the long run, especially since I don’t use Duelling Sword or Knife every game like some Vets.

Shotguns are a meme overall, even more ammo won’t help them. I use the fire shotgun to solo objectives on maps with tentacles, but you can do it with Bolt Pistol/Bolter marks that have larger AOE explosions (1 hit - instantly clears the tentacle).

Surprised to see people voting Vet as Appropriate / Slightly Too Little.

To me, Survivalist is probably the third most overpowered thing in the game after infinite cleave and yellow toughness. Everything is just so much easier if you have ammo.

Why would a class initially designed to be an anti-special/anti-shooter marskman have identical ammo gain to multiple classes who have easier time in melee, both surviving and dealing with multiple targets with nothing but melee weapon? And how can it be the 3rd most OP thing with Pickpocket existing which literary gives infinite ammo to the class that ignores ranged damage and has infinite stamina/mobility for kiting?

Pickpocket requires a melee kill and only takes effect when you’re already low on ammo.

Survivalist is working all the time for the entire team.

I personally ranked Hive Scum as “Appropriate” considering the Pickpocket nerf from its original OP state and the fact I rarely see Desperado Scum in high Havoc, but I could be convinced Pickpocket is still OP. My main thought is just too much ammo/ranged = too easy in high Havoc.

Survivalist is OP because it gives Zealots flamer ammo and Ogryns rumbler nades

Not because of what it gives to the vet alone

And back when they did round up a single dog got you a rumbler grenade via survivalist. Which also sucked balls.

Survivalist has also been in the game since day 1. It’s has been pretty thoroughly nerfed and balanced around over the past 4 years. It’s down to where it’s more of a nice perk to having a vet in the team instead of any sort of essential component. Even in havoc.

Meanwhile, gold toughness only catches mild, second order nerfs and infinite cleave is continually encouraged. So I don’t see how survivalist comes anywhere even close to being as bad as those two are. Even just within the realm of ammo balance issues I don’t see survivalist being particularly high on the list.

yeah which is another huge flaw in the balancing of these weapons, 34 rumbler shots vs 65 revolver shots hmmmmmmmmmmm

the worst thing for ranged is that they dont even have movesets or anything to redeem them, they just need to meet the damage per % ammo threshold and if you dont byebye!

havoc just makes this worse ofc, its amazing how that mode just aggravates every existing balance issue