Pyromancers running Resourceful Sharpshooter is borderline overpowered and kills fun for others

In my opinion a single sienna with beam staff isn’t really a problem.
As long as not the entire horde comes throug one small corridor there is still enough to do for the rest of the team.
If you have an IB with flamethrower and a sienna with any staff then it can get really boring.
If i run into a team setup like this i normaly search for a new lobby.

@CommanderJ

I don’t think rushing forward is the solution.
There are so many things that can go wrong. You can ruin the entire run only because you rushed forward.

  • You can trigger new elites.
  • Youre team might not be able to helb you if you get grabbed by a special.
  • You might get separated by Poisen or a stormcaster.
  • You might not be able to save youre teamates because youre to far away or you are to busy with the horde.
  • Youre Sienna might stop shooting because she doesn’t get a free firing line and you lose the chocepoint because you get overwhelmed by the horde now.
  • You might push out of a good position.
  • etc

If you can’t enjoy playing with a ranged focused group than a bether solution in my opinion is to search for a new lobby, instead of potentially ruining the run for everybody. Thats how i do it at least.

Positioning in this game is a skill that is incredibly important. Your milage may vary, but when I talk about jumping into the front of the horde to shred it, I talk about doing it when it is safe to do so. I come across certain pugs/teams that play incredibly careful, turtling up for every little horde and enemy, and takes forever to finish a map because they’re just so slow and trigger horde upon horde because they’re slow.

In my opinion, being good at legend means knowing how to balance speed with safeness. Position is always key, but being good at position doesn’t mean you always find a safe place to turtle up. Most of the maps are full of areas where it is just as safe to fight forward through the horde, as it is to turtle up.
When you know where the pat spawns etc are, then you also know where you should turtle up and wait the horde out.

Getting surrounded in this game is pretty much a choice - you chose not to move to a better location (if we ignore certain BS ambushes, but most ambushes are easy to deal with.) In the same way, I feel that having a ranged meta or letting the ranged take all the kills, is a choice.

Now, it may very well be possible that many players require the ranged to take most of the kills, because they lack the skill/awareness to safely plow through a horde, either because they can’t safely deal with elites, specials or know where pats might be. That’s not a fault of the game, that’s a fault of the player.

In terms of pure killing power, it makes all kinds of sense that it is easier to carry with certain ranged careers, because they can kill most things before they come into contact with unskilled melee. That being said, there are plenty of melee careers that can carry very hard, but they often carry in a different way - by soloing content and getting the others back up once things have already gone very wrong.

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40% to chaos and infantry will one shot any sized horde density of the chaos fanatics with the maxed alternative fire of conflagration staff. 30% will not based on mod realm testing w conflagration. Just a little addendum to your 20% infantry comment!

Already opened a bug report:
http://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/beam-staff-target-switching/24248

It’s granting that much CDR without Resourceful Sharpshooter

Also using a CD reduction build, but not a bug. Just ridiculously strong:

Try Beam with Heat Sink, and play a private Legend map. Spam drag the beam left and right on everything (through the bots). You can pretty much solo a map. Easiest solo I’ve done yet because of how fast the ult comes up and how little overcharge you have. Might make a video.

Pretty much kills this thread.

Sienna along with all ranged careers are not OP, it’s melee that needs a buff. Nerf Sienna into the ground, and she’s forced to melee with her god awful melee weapons. Then you will be back here complaining how she’s a detriment to your team, and you’re tired of rezzing her.

@OP Trust me, I mainly play melee and I understand your frustration with ranged. Just do what I do, and force them to move with you. If they want to shoot me in the back, so be it, but I’m NOT going to play the “camp with the ranged” game. Sorry.

It really is a case of, if you let it happen then it’s your fault. I rarely have quick-play games where they’re playing the camping game, and if I do I either leave or face the horde head-on. And not protect the blind Sienna/BH.

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I’d agree that quite a few melee weapons would feel a lot better with a little more cleave/stagger and/or a little bit more damage. It might also be an idea to look at certain melee careers to make them more interesting to play, but that’s really an aside and not about strict balance per se.

A little bit less of the awfulness that is silent packmasters and instant assassins would help melee out a lot as well.

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Ugh, and pack-masters that completely ignore the enemy stacking limit.

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yeah that’s just so much fun! :slight_smile:

This is so true. I’ve had games on ranged careers where sometimes the players will stop an look at me, and I can just imagine them saying “aren’t you going to kill those elites over there?” and won’t move until everything we see is dead, then next area.

Best to just move on when that happens, or (if not on Sienna, because OMG sienna melee so bad) I just go full on melee with Keri or Saltz instead of dealing with things at range, kinda nudging/forcing the others to get into the melee as well.

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Yup, same here. Friendly fire is so minimal with Sienna, I just let her shoot my temp health. But a BH/Huntsman crit can sting a little.

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But FS said they removed crit procs on first tick! :anguished:

I guess only on literally the first tick after firing.

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What difficulty were you playing on? I have never had a pyro remove all threats, ever. At best they cut the size of the hoard down to something more manageable during really busy moments.

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I’m with you… I tried the CDR build myself to see what all the hubbub was about, and I’m not impressed with it. It feels way to EZ Cheese mode spamming burning heads, but they aren’t even that reliable, and when s*** really hits the fan I have to switch to better tactics or else RIP. plus all it takes is one burning head deciding to go murder some ambient clan rats instead of the CW right in front of you (which happens a lot) and then buh-bye, in the end relying only on CDR and burning head is a recipe for getting killed.

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I don’t have any issues involving Pyro or playing Legend that need answered at the moment. I think on Legend and Champion, you will find really good party members, and really terrible party members. Similarly, you will easily win a lot of games on Champion and Legend without much of a struggle, and other times lose 3+ matches in a row due to what feels like cheap-shot RNG or poor responses to hostile spawns by the party. Playing on Legend certainly doesn’t ensure you get allies who are paying attention or playing cohesively as a team. I often get the impression I’m playing with people that queued Legend by mistake based on how they react when things start heating up.

For me, what decides the success of Legend runs, more than anything else, is the awareness and positioning of the 4 party members. Simply checking 360 degrees around yourself every few seconds, and being aware of your positioning in relation to the other 3 party members, is going to make or break runs most of the time. It’s entirely necessary when RNG feels it’s appropriate to spawn 1-3 disabler specials out of thin air, mere meters from the party. If you’re playing Legend, just operate as if you’re always seconds from behind hit in the back, especially playing as pyro/beam staff sienna.

With this build, I think of her as mobile artillery, in that she can devastate a lot of whats in front of her before it ever comes into range of being a threat, at the risk of needing to eliminate nearby threats before you can safely do so. It’s a risk-reward play style where even a moment of not paying attention while casting could result in a pink rat poking you twice in the back, resulting in going down on Legend. Someone can make the point that “now everyone has to protect sienna, sigh”, and while it is nice to have someone watching her back, it’s ultimately Sienna’s responsibility to cast the beam wisely and remain aware of her surroundings, and not doing so makes her a detriment to the team. No amount of CC, damage, or flaming skulls from sienna is worth repeatedly going down because they can’t pay attention to their own surroundings.

You can use beam/resourceful sharpshooter pyro in Legend, do 10k+ damage, and still get outdamaged and outkilled by other players, so even though it is very good, other classes can compete. No build will ensure success every Legend run. But I think this ties in to the point you make about broken classes becoming essential; they won’t ensure Legend success, but if you don’t bring them to the table, it seriously undermines your Legend runs. Should the firemage be able to solo a horde of pink rats? Probably not. But then it can be argued no class should be able to stun lock a boss, or single-handedly take out half its HP in seconds.

If you nerf out this pyro build, there are still other cheeses available, and if you fix/balance them all, Legend either needs tweaked down in difficulty, or Legend rewards need boosted, because if you do anything to make Legend harder, it’s just going to make the veteran item grind that is the end-game more tedious than it already is.

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I remember months ago a certain post that recommended Resourceful over Heatsink and everyone was like “NO NONO YOU NEED lower overcharge!” “But I just use ult to ditch my overcharge and Resourceful gives me more ults” “NoNONOO ur ult is already fast enough u must have HEAT SINK and nothing else”

months later

“Resourceful is overpowered! plz nerf!”

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Made the video. Check the melee kills at the end too.

This is with Heat Sink.

(no macro)

… and?

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This is without heatsink, without resourceful combatant, and without Beam staff.

What’s your point?

That’s also a 30 minute run on a 13 minute map. Were you…bolstering numbers…accidentally, of course?

Oh I see now, all bots just to make sure there were no other players able to steal damage and kills. Unless you’re suggesting beam sienna is the only one that can solo legend…?

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It shows how quickly the cooldown comes up even without Resourceful Sharpshooter, by dragging cross hair to target switch quickly. Also shows how Heat Sink can spike down your Overcharge from the same technique.

Hope this helps people see why it’s so strong. Instead of counting on just words alone.

Yeah, and it also shows it takes you forever to kill anything with that build, as you’re basically just staggering enemies instead of killing them to get your ultimate up, resulting in a very, very slow game.

It’s cheesy, yes, but I don’t see it being as efficient as other builds, certainly not more skill-reliant builds.

Crits decrease cooldowns on ultimates, and thus weapons with many hits per second have higher critrates. Working as intended imo.

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