Neeever noticed about cause i dont play sharp as contact, but, ok here, HERE, ther s something intresting to tweak !
And maybe absolutly not the message i wanna give
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Well,
a) I donât think any balance should be done around games where thereâs just 4 of class X in the game. I mean, that would be like saying Ogryns need lasguns and bolters because you need better long-range dmg if there are 4 Ogryns in the game.
b) I am not saying that SS needs to be useless in melee just like Zealot shouldnât be useless at range. Not only can you have different team compositions, as you said, but also you will be in situations where you simply have to go full melee or full ranged, and I am glad that this is the design idea from FS: Everyone can do range and melee to some degree.
c) In your example, 4 vets would, not bomb, not nuke, but do a damn exterminatus to a horde with the amount of bombs they carry.
Really?
Thatâs just bizarre, why did they think the ranged specialist who should be playing from cover needs this and not the melee specialist?
FS should just come out and admit that they love the veteran more than every other class.
Yeah it could do the job with bombs, specially if you are builded for, if not ⌠i keep my bomb for real critical moments
Sorry vet isnt invulnerable like zealot 
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Lets not talk about having 4 grenades + grenade regen. I personally think itâs the best grenade too. With regen I think they should have 2 imo.
I personnaly think itâs zealot 1 cause the stun is very long you can desengage take flamer burn everything, or revive your mates in peace.
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TBF Zealot gets theirs back in other regards as seen in this table
Being borderline damage immune while sliding is a hell of a drug.
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Grenade stun them long enough to do revives + they kill them instead. Stun is a close 2nd though. I just think getting 4 of them + regen is just a bit too much and has little to do with Zealots grenade.
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Yeah, but you all are again discussing grenades and âSS vs Zealotâ and the topic is Powersword balance.
Now I donât want to be contentious. But the power sword is fine as it is. In damnation. Nerfing it for people playing Malice and killing the entire weapon for the good difficulties doesnât seem to be the play.
The power Sword trades literally every scrap of stagger for damage. If you want to kill itâs damage then it needs a return in stagger.
The thunder hammer with good rolls can one shot bulwarks and reapers with a single activation without using your F. It is the single strong boss dps melee weapon in this game (as long as weâre not comparing numbers for an immobile boss in a vaccum). As for the rest of this.
Letâs contrast this to the Crusher which lives on the opposite end of the spectrum but is present on a melee oriented class.
The crusher will stagger and suppress literally anything in that scaling radius around you and itâs a very large radius. Nearly the same space as a grenade and it can keep ANYTHING in this radius staggered
For example:
Doing an assassination? Nothing save specials is going to interrupt you stomping him into dust. Boss spawns next to a bunch of Ogryns? Crush and stagger (the ogryns that is) them into submission and kill them with literal 100% complete safety provided you know how to dodge the bosses attacks point blank. Yes including nurgles slug. As well as this being strong itâs attatched to a Zealot. Who by proximity to these groups is rapidly replenishing toughness forever. Itâs trade off is lower overall damage but in exchange you get unlimited upwards safety.
Vet doesnât have this. The weapon does great damage but has no stagger. Youâre not staggering a crusher with that thing ever. And you get no benefits to being in melee. Itâs more of something you accept for ammo conservation or horde killing. Itâs a versatile weapon like Kruberâs halberd with less reach and nearly the same drawback in nonexistent stagger. With an extra step (that being activating the weapon) necessary to get your damage. Itâs a fantastic horde clearing weapon with the small caveat that itâs a bit dicey to use in a pinch in damnation due to the activation time. If a pack of ragers drop on your face you donât get the Zealots ability to shurug off a few hits with minimum toughness and health loss and then cave the entire packs head in while keeping them CCâd forever. Activating it under pressure as Vet who has no DR for melee combat is risky.
That risk balances the weapon.
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Itâs what i suggested befor the first brutal nerf
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Yeah so can you people stop this? Its like every single argument can now be drowned out with âmalice playersâ âZealot mainsâ.
Which is why the entire rest of the post is used to state examples, comparisons, and applications necessary to defend my position. And the entire reason I made that disclaimer is because difficulty DOES matter because outgoing damage needed to kill an enemy is higher, the higher difficulty you play.
People being sensitive to mentions of difficulty at all is why I specifically made that disclaimer that Iâm not trying to throw shade. What else could you possibly want? Iâm sorry.
Yeah and i appriciate that but i donât honestly understand why even include the first part. Most people posting here are probably playing heresy+ anyways.
You know what they say about assume
Yeah this was actually polled back in v2 days, youâd be suprised how little people care about balancing stuff on lower difficulties.
Eitherway this tangent is totally offtopic so i stop now.
I think in all games, balancing is mainly done around high-level play, and it is, for me, understood that this and most, if not all, discussions about balance are coming from this understanding.
The very fact that you are comparing melee weapons from a melee-focused class and a range-focus class is telling a lot.
Veteran is a range specialist and has a clear advantages in range combat. If crushers and powerswords were perfectly balanced as weapons, it would still be a game imbalance because the range specialist gets the powersword.
However, I would disagree that crushers (or TH) are on the same level as powerswords.
Yes, you are right, you donât get stagger and you reminded me about one thing I havenât seen discussed:
The PS is not nearly imbalanced (if at all) vs single targets where that charged mega-cleave is not an issue. It is precisely imbalanced in âhordeâ and âsmall group of specialsâ scenarios, where both melee classes should shine to make up for their lack of range options.
One issue is that the powersword charged attack has cleave - something neither TH nor Eviscerator have. The other is that you get more (2?) heavy swings with the charge.
As Iâve already said, I wouldnât mind if Ogrynâs and Zealots melee weapons were buffed to be better, but there is a clear imbalance right now.
How is this telling? In this game, every class has to contend with melee combat. Vet like the aforementioned Kruber got the halberd. Every class that wasnât Bardin (until DLC anyways) got the so called Versatile weapons that could do everything decently well but had some weaknesses and the reason (I believe) Bardin was an outlier was because of his access to Slayer. A melee oriented class that took two weapons to compliment each other.
Why would you disagree that crusher isnât the same level as powersword? You have unlimited elite stagger on a large radius. If there are 2 Bulwkars, 4 maulers, 2 crushers, and an unlimited number of pox walkers, you stunlock 100% of them with a 100% uptime in a VERY large radius.
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Yes, and also ranged combat.
However, since it is clear that it wasnât a design idea to make every class EQUALLY good at both ranged and melee, this is where the imbalance comes from. You canât have a range class be best at range combat and the EQUALLY good at melee as melee classes (who are not as good at ranged combat).
Again, you are comparing melee performance between a class that is specifically geared to stagger enemies in melee to a range specialist class. What options does Ogryn have in range combat with multiple shooter groups and/or snipers? Shield! Thatâs right, shield and nothing else. Sure, Ogryns also have some range options but what do you think would happen if instead of comparing melee, like we do in this thread, we start comparing range performance between Ogryn and SS. How would that comparison look?
I have a sense that you are too reliant on VT2 balance. VT2 has range combat as an afterthought so you have to give great melee options to all classes. In DT range is at least half of the combat and is especially important and difficult in Heresy+.
This thread is great if you want to read more about it: Symptoms & Solutions: Why ignoring everything great about your combat is the best way to play it, and how to fix it
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