Player feedback is important, but Devs should never change game design around feedback

Warhammer 40,000: Darktide Gameplay Feedback
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QoL changes are always welcome,

but demands like:

Game is too hard
There are not enough ammo
Psykers should be more tanky
Matchmaking should not match seasoned players with others

are ridiculous and flawed, and should never incorporated to updates. Players should adapt to the game design the devs are experienced, and FatShark is pretty successful in their ‘‘tide’’ series.

+Updates are usually full of content, people. Stop rushing devs to communicate/release an update. They will do it when it is ready. Man, they are still developing new features to VT2. Chill.

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This is my opinion on that matter.

They should communicate much more. If you dislike the community giving so much (mostly) negative feedback ask youself why they, better said we, do that.
Fatshark leaves us in the dark for the most part. We don’t know their plans, we don’t know their vision for Darktide.
The community can’t give feedback based on the information we get from fatshark, so some people picture the worst scenarios.
All the time there are MTX cosmetics leaked through their files, which are recolors most of the time, so everyone thinks they are greedy and lazy doing nothing but recolors. While they might work on a super mega huge update or crafting overhaul or even on a new archetype. Who knows?
You know what could deminish that for the most part?
A statement from Fatshark.

You know how the feedback could be more helpful and expedient for the game?
Communication, information and official polls.

It’s really odd that they seem to implement stuff into their updates/hotfixes that aren’t highly requested demands and seem to ignore the ones big parts of the community have.
But you can also only speculate about that, as they won’t explain their actions.

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It’s a balancing act. Some criticism are valid, some are just to vent and some are impossible to implement. But the moment we stop, we will end up with credit card terminal by the PC.

“GaMEs aS a sErVIce” - kark that man with a cactus… really.

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I bought DarkTide in Beta on my experiences in VT2. Which I bought I think about 2-3 years after release on a Steam sale, just after the Winds of whatever patch. I really liked it - a bit l4d2, but with that old Fighting Fantasy feel to it.

But my experience in DarkTide, while fun, will not encourage me to buy the ‘next’ Tide game at launch. I’m baked on DT. I’m not going to be around to see “the next great thing”. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve enjoyed it a lot, but it’s been a time of two halves. 12 months of meh - I’m putting up with this really til you fix it, and 6 months of actually “this is pretty solid” play time.

My experience as a heavy player since launch has seen these improvements:

1 - crash fixes. Because it crashed a lot.
2 - bug fixes. Because there have been a LOT of bugs. There still are (sound cues).
3 - improvements to fairly stupid UI choices: e.g. having to use a Roll-Until-Value mod
4 - a new player skill tree: which lets really be honest, is to fill the gap because they didn’t create any new player classes in 15 months after promising something quite different.
5 - a crafting ‘unlock’. Of two traits, in total. o_O.
6 - a few new maps. The new maps are good. But I think there are still, what, 12 maps in total? In TOTAL. And they’re all disjointed. And many are just reverse plays of others.
I think VT2 had 4 full mission arcs each with 3 maps in (+1 finale), but then the expansion packs opened another 13 that I got for about £4 in total?
7 - an event. I liked it. It was short though. Nothing like the Chaos Wastes.
8 - some new weapons, all exactly like the previous weapons but with different move patterns. :person_shrugging:

Which when you enumerate them feel a lot, but when you think that maybe these all should have been built in to launch, I dunno. Let’s just say, I don’t think I’ve seen anything that really changes that baseline experience. And considering I’ve put close to 1000 hours in, and sat on the armoury chrome plug in for around 300 rotations, I’ve still not seen some weapon blessings / combinations to try them out.

And then specifically to your point: we’ve heard NOTHING of note since they released the twins in October. Mate: you might have the patience to see what drops, but the player base has left. Gone. The game crawls along, but even these forums are dead.

In my interpretation, they’ve decided that they’ve got the money they can for this release, and have shut up shop.

I don’t feel badly done to. But there’s no way I’m coming back when I do step out in the next month.
I think FS are best making this P2P, opening the cosmetics shop for underpaid art grads, and winding down the operation.

(* typo edits)

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I think we’d agree in general, but how you worded it sounds like something I would disagree with.

If they have overwhelmingly negative feedback about something, then it is worth them considering options to improve whatever is being criticized. That’s how improvements based on feedback works.

It’s not a “hey here is a complaint! Let’s change some things and send it out!”

It’s a much more complex iteration based back and forth of changing small and large things internally with their test teams and listening to THEIR feedback as to what feels better

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We are their test teams.

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If there is a strong and overall pro player vision, an author behind the game, and devs can defend their vision with arguments than yes.

Not in case with Fatshark so, guess why there is no Q&A streams with lead game designers. Cause they can’t defend anti-player gacha, greedy mtx, etc.

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With no communication, every update is ‘the last update’, at least from a PR standpoint. We have no knowledge of their plans, no ability to tell if they plan to shutter the game or not.

Fatshark could fix this one of two ways.

  1. Actually include content in every single update, so that the ‘it’s so over’ crowd never really has anything to point to.
  2. Actually communicate their plans honestly, without lying to the playerbase.

Fatshark doesn’t want to do either of those, because Fatshark is run by people with paper-thin egos and a greedy pack of MBAs.

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Too many canaries dying in this coal mine…

We’re their Guard regiment… they’re the commissar… and we’re retreating.

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If they’re just random one-offs, sure, and such things typically don’t factor into design changes. If however, those complaints are high-profile, consistent, and sustained, they probably indicate an issue with the design that needs to be addressed.

This game’s fundamental value premise is selling people lifetime tickets to Virtual Warhammer world, and then selling them outfits to dress up in and cosplay as thereafter. If something is demonstrably and consistently detracting from that experience, it absolutely should be changed.

Likewise, while Fatshark was very successful with the Vermintide series, Darktide however has overall received substantially worse reviews and reception in general, mainly because it was released half-baked and there are issues and problems Fatshark demonstrably solved or did better in VT/VT2 and somehow didn’t carry over to DT.

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Hilariously you can already make them the tankiest tied with Ogryns. If you take all the Toughness related notes you can and equip that Force Sword with Deflector Blessing, you’ll be able to withstand almost anything.

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All I need is my Telekine Shield, so long as I take care not to bust :wink:

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Brother got humbled

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Player feedback around balance is important. It can help the devs maybe find something they overlooked, or maybe some design choices were better on paper than in actual implementation. There are some things you won’t ever think about until thousands of people play with it, and bring it to your attention.

The difference is not letting it be the only factor that can contribute to balance design.

For me a great example of this in action right now is the Thunder Hammer. I think almost everyone will agree that it is in a horrible state right now. However I don’t think that they should take the current community suggestions as the way to fix it. The community can address the problem, but not offer the best solution (in most cases).

This isn’t to say don’t offer a suggestion as to a way you think a weapon could be better or more fun to use. It’s fun (to me) to discuss conceptual weapon design etc, and it might be the best solution. But it should never become gospel for the devs to follow.

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The usual problem with feedback is that it’s hard to parse what changes will actually have a positive outcome. Normally feedback is vague or the implementation of said feedback in the form that it’s proffered is

Devs the world over are notorious for over-zealous adjustments – making massive changes to how various aspects of their games function, then just watch while the community squirms for weeks in a sorry state… alternatively, there are some developers out there who make incremental, small changes, but perform them relatively frequently. From what I recall LoL used to do this, then every once in a while come out with a massive overhaul to a champion. Guild Wars (the OG) would pop out incremental adjustments depending on the evolving meta; however, since it was an MMO that benefited from instanced play, they were able to make minute adjustments or huge changes depending on what was meta in PvE or PvP separately).

That’s the trade off, though. I’m fine with tweaks to the game, but honestly, Fatshark’s “everything’s a nail and we’re a Thunderhammer” approach doesn’t work here since they make massive changes and then don’t actually fix the problems that need fixing all while compounding existing issues or creating new ones. Oh, and instead of operating on a “several week” timeline, it’s basically quarterly.

Their hotfixes are laughable and full patches are disappointing at best and egregiously pointless at worst.

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Bad analogy because Darktide’s Thunder Hammer couldn’t break a glass pane.

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Everything’s a mob and… they’re an eviscerator? Kickback? Ripper?

it works just fine… it’s flavor on an idiom.

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Regarding this and the title…

Are you aware of the fact that bad games exist?

Just like with any other field, some devs are terrible at their job.
Sometimes it affects many aspects of the game, in other cases it only affects a few.

And just like with any other field, it is important to properly filter the feedback that they get.

Is someone just bitching and complaining about things, because they are having a bad day?
Is someone hating on things for bad reasons, or making unreasonable demands, because they are just an annoying person or have absolutely no clue what they are talking about?
Probably ignore that.

Is someone putting together some well thought through and well reasoned feedback?
Are they pointing out major issues with the game that could be fixed?
Maybe do not ignore that.

Is the majority of the playerbase complaining about the same aspect of the game, for the same reason, all the time since release (including players who have many positive things to say about the game)? Do many players leave for the same reason? Is there an aspect of the game that is terribly anti player, actively hinders the enjoyment of the game, and is completely opposite to what was advertised?
Definitely have a look at it and make sure that the problem is fixed.
That includes “game design” like a garbage crafting system.

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Man, I’m glad I invested in the torch and pitchfork industry.

So, who wants a torch, and who wants a pitchfork?

  • Torch!
  • Pitchfork!
0 voters

pitchfork
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I worked as a restaurant chef till 2020. Let us use your argument for a second:

A restaurant should never change its vision based on customer input. Demands include:

  • The dish has no flavor.
  • The menu is excessively expensive.
  • The service is awful.
  • Servers are nasty to the consumers.
  • The ordering process takes too long, and the staff always restricts us to only half of the menu options.

Are ridiculous and flawed, and should never be adopted.

This is such a terrible and naive take from you.

Game development studios do not receive a free pass simply because we enjoy gaming.

They are judged just like any other product, and the reality is that you, as a company, must either accept criticism from your players or they will leave. Cough Blizzard cough.

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