Plasteel, movement speed, the REAL NUMBERS, and the broken dreams of the playerbase

People have been talking about how popular the pistols are, and I was thinking of seeing if I could get an actual sharp shooter build to work…

And I noticed that ALL the vet melee weapons, with the exception of the knife, are slow movers.

Sure the Powersword is bitched about because of its low mobility,

but for pure running, you don’t go any faster with a chainsword,

Powersword 0.26 at 79
Chainsword 0.26 at 79.

The sacred shovel which required the nerf of all other weapons in the game so it might stay viable is, you guess it, 0.27 at 80.

Tactical axe is moderately slow, 0.27 at 80 mob.
Catachan swords are the same, 0.22 at 74 mob.

Knife is mad fast, 0.89 at 80 mob.

Now, on the ranged side, it’s not as bad but it’s close. I have a
Columnus with +0.57, an
MG IV at 049,
Kant XII with 79 mob is 0.26
which drops you down to the same speed as most of available melees.
A plasma gun is going to take it the other way, -0.25 ish, and helbores are unlisted.

las pistol is as fast as a knife, at 0.89, (80 mob)
Revolver is still over average at 0.59 (80 mob.)

So, if you want to go fast as a vet, you have to take either a knife or a pistol. If you take both a fullsword and a not-tiny ranged, you’re going to be going from somewhere from 0.25 to negative 0.25.

Let’s move to Psyker, we’ll just do class weapons.
Force staff (any.) -0.20. (note the negative.) Thats on line with the plasma gun.
Force Sword (any) 0.27 at 80 mob. 0.09 at 60 mob.
Dualing sword 0.89 at 80 mob, so same as a knife.

Now, for the devs. THIS IS A PROBLEM.

Suppose you are a psyker, and you even bring a knife, and stop to open a crate hoping for some health, or stimms, or even some plasteel… (Plasteel being the game’s main bottleneck) And you look up and see the three zealots you dropped with… or their outlines… Well, it might look a little like this:

Imagine if the psyker had a force sword! The distance might be so great that you couldn’t even make out the dots.

(Yes, sprint related perks are on curios, not the point. The above is with them maxed out, and the locks get in the way of that anyway. )

AND to add insult to injury, the spawns are going to slow down the lone psyker even more. Quite a lot since he might have to deal with quite a lot by himself.

Now, let’s talk about plasteel, AKA the main reason to hunt around.

Plasteel is our main bottleneck in the game. IT’s freaking awful.
Now, you are aware all players hate your crafting system, and you still haven’t fixed it. The largest thread on the offical forums is the documentation of all the people complaining about this awful system you refuse to fix.

Let’s actually examine the plasteel bottleneck.

Average numbers for upgrading a weapon (over 360 base) are as follows.
Grey to Green 150 Plasteel.
Green to blue, 200
Blue to Purple 400p/125d
Purple to Orange 700/300

Rebless/refine 100/80 199/100

For a curio, the numbers are
Green to blue 160
310/99
530/230
Refine 144/72

So, what is the rate of plasteel acquisition? It might surprise you to learn it’s about 10P a minute, or 200p in a 20 minute run on medium. On Heresy it can jump a fair amount into the 350s, and more on damnation, but we need a number, so on malice an average run for average players is 20 minutes with a haul of 200-250 plasteel, and the people doing auric maelstrom damnation aren’t the people hurt the worse by this system.

So, to get one build set up, a player needs to first get a decent melee/ranged pair from RNG to start with, it may cost them 1450 plasteel to get it to orange, (IF it gets to orange,)
Double that for both weapons, and we’re at close to 3000. Now change two things, and we might well be at 3400 plasteel.

Add in the trinkets, the trinkets are 1k plasteel each before reroll and 1300 after.

So, our single build, if everything goes right, is 7,400 plasteel, or 123 hours of malice gameplay.

And who wants just one weapon for each slot, or runs only one toon?
If a player runs four toons that’s 500 hours to get one build on each, 620 if they run five.

This is WITHOUT fails and WITHOUT blessing hunts.

To get a blessing of a decent level, we need to run a weapon from green to blue, or sometimes higher. Some blessings seem to not appear at blue, though it’s hard to be sure. Some more specific builds get bricked at any step in the 1450 plasteel process, a process that requires 7.25 hours of plasteel gathering for an average player running malice JUST TO ROLL THE DICE.

The damnation players ARE making more, but even with their higher income there’s a lot of time going in to plasteel hunting.

7 hours just to roll the dice on a super rare blessing.

But, maybe you roll only to blue? That’s maybe one roll of the dice every 20-40 minutes, depending if you started at grey or green.

Remember, we have over 40 weapon types, with about 9 blessings a type. That’s 360 blessings to get just level 3 available for building on all types. At a guess I would imagine that a player will find they want to try
Force Sword
Force Staffx3
autogun
Lasgun
recon lasgun
Knife
Revolver
Ripper
Cleaver
Ogryn club
Shovel
Powersword
Chainsword
Evis
Thunderhammer

(No reason to stop there except have to somewhere)
And to start experimenting that’s over 130 blessings just to finish level 3. That’s 130 rolls of the dice at 20 minutes minimum to roll them. That’s 42 hours right there, IF you get a new blessing every time, which you most certainly do not.

That is hundreds of hours just farming blessings. Hundreds of hours to ATTEMPT a build. Hundreds of hours to come up with the parts for a build, and hundreds of hours WASTED.

Just to set up one build
500 hours.
To set up blessings for a handful of iconic weapons, with PERFECT LUCK and only rolling blue,
50 hours.
Rolling blue AND orange? 900 hours. (Again, with PERFECT luck.)

As things are now? Too much work to be disappointed again and again by the results of the system.

Many have left. Of those who remain, a ton of players aren’t even picking up plasteel that’s right in front of them. They don’t care anymore. They come in, play a bit, leave. That’s not the engagement you want. That’s not the level your game could be if you embraced the community of gamers and freedom.

(Seriously, some even suspect Fat Shark made crafting horrible on purpose to make people not want it so as to have an excuse to get rid of it. ‘wasn’t being used. can’t think why. We took it out completely.’)

Now, what you should do about it. First, do NOT nerf anything. Nerfs are bad.
But…

  1. EVERYONE in the game needs to run faster. EVERYONE. It’s bad thinking that anyone doesn’t need to run fast.
  2. You can mostly keep the same dodges, just separate run speed from weapon mobility entirely.
  3. DO NOT NERF ZEALOT. NOT NOT NOT.
  4. EVERYONE in the game needs to run faster. EVERYONE. It’s bad thinking that anyone doesn’t need to run fast.
  5. Allow insane speed runners separate lobbies. They don’t’ want to run with us, we don’t want to run with them, everyone is happy.
  6. Get rid of the locks so we can build sprint trinkets.
  7. Read the list again.
  8. Make it so chests are already open so you don’t waste time going to look, make them open when a player gets close so it doesn’t slow them down or the next player can snag whatever is in it, and for the LOVE OF THE EMPORER… Speed up chest interaction by 75%.
  9. Increase plasteel drop rate.
    10 increase plasteel spawn rate.
  10. make all plasteel glow bright orange and have it auto collect when you get withen 10 meters, even without opening a chest.
  11. Make all plasteel drops large and make all large drops worth 250 plasteel.
  12. Make all monsters and bosses drop 1k plasteel and 10k ordo dockets.
  13. Make everyone go faster so we can pick up the plasteel.
  14. Do not nerf zealot, buff everyone else.
  15. When a character is moderately behind the main body, give them a double speed /stamina no consume buff when moving in the direction of the party and make it kick in after 2 second of constant movement. I know you have the tech because there’s a similar perk in the vet tree.
  16. Do not nerf zealot.
  17. Reduce crafting cost.
  18. no locks.
  19. get rid of the locks.
  20. Let us refund our materials are downgrade an item to try again. Even if it’s only 75% of spend materials it would be a help as 380s with good distribution are rare.
  21. Let us ‘order’ a weapon like from brunt, but in green. We say what we want, and when the store rolls over they have ‘brought out the selection’ and everything in the store is a purgatus staff or tigris xv and we can pick one(s) with the distribution we want.
  22. Increase plasteel drops.
  23. Make us go faster.
  24. Make chests less painful to deal with.
  25. Make sprinting MUCH more efficient and also FASTER when one has not attacked or been attacked for 3 seconds, to allow better use of time between fights. DRG has a perk like this, run for 2 seconds and you go much faster.

EDIT TO ADD:
26. Short term, give us knife speed or greaterwhen we have blitz selected, and allow it to be selected when empty. (No grenades just means empty hands but fast speed.)
27. Make all swords and basic ranged a minimum of +0.65 from their current average of 0.25. That’s not as fast a a knife, but it’s fast enough not to feel slow, which they kind of do now. Force Staves should get a massive increase from their current negative to at least as fast as an autogun.

(You might note some repetition in there.)

Comon Fat Shark, I know Vermintide had us moving slow, but attention spans are less these days. Let ALL CLASSES GO FAST.

8 Likes

Vermintide was fast, they slowed everyone down in DT because of the sprint mechanic.

I’m currently getting annoyed by speed runners… yesterday I’ve had 485 plasteel Damnation run.
I’m reaching levels of RAGE, I thought, I was not capable of before…

3 Likes

I am surprised you didn’t bring up the slowdown Vet and Psyker get when they out of Stamina, while Zealot and Ogryn have like 10% or so slowdown when out of Stamina. Not to mention the extra damage for daring to sprint.

And now imagine the team actually… looked out for teammates. I know, i know… perish the thought.

I’d argue that i am not plasteel hunting on Damnation, but Ammo, Medkit and other resources that i am hunting for. But i am all for getting more Plasteel.

I disagree with this. The game gets an increasingly worse experience when all you do is rush. It just sucks on a gameplay level.

I think it should be the other way around. I think Vet and Psyker shouldn’t have the slowdown when out of Stamina, and the Zealot and Ogryn should have high sprint speed but also a the high slow down when out of stamina. This would mean Zealot and Ogryn can get high bursts of speed to gap close, but can’t constantly motor. While Vet and Psyker will loose Stamina quickly but can keep up with the backrow.

Why not?

Why repeat points? Doesn’t make them better or more compelling.

They already can have that, if they go to the Discord and form a Premade for this purpose.

Why would i keep “rerolling” my Trinket to make a sprint trinket, instead of just make a 2nd trinket for the purpose of going fast.

Poor arguments don’t get more compelling a 2nd time around.

Chests are closed so they can be in a state of quantum flux. That way the chest doesn’t get populated with no items as you enter it’s spawn range 2 stories below it… and then get beaten half to death in between when a Chaos Spawn spawns along with a Crusher horde. You’ll be damn happy the Chest was closed so the AI Director can spawn in a Med Kit or some Ammo. Instead of making that determination at the point where you didn’t need the items.

No. Just no. That is a horrible suggestion. What is this? Fortnight? Go play Fortnight for your neon glowing shhhh…

Heck no. While I agree with the total plasteel amount needing to be increased, what i do not agree with, is this obscene amount of plasteel. I am sorry, but drowning the playerbase in resources will only lead to a quicker demise of the playerbase. If you can have everything by playing a single match, then there is no reason to keep playing in 2 weeks time.

That would be insane when you get a Maelstrom with extra Monstrosities.

That is called Powercreep and it is about the most toxic thing for a game that ever exists. It only leads to escalating costs and HP requirements to keep some level of challenge/feeling of achievement.

As i said, there could be more Plasteel right now, and a way to convert Resources (including Dockets) into other Resources, but this is the wrong way to go about it.

I could see the appeal to be able to give Brunt a order, where it will keep buying green items of a certain rating or something of the type we specified, even when not logged in.

They are fine the way they are. Actually, i prefer them this way. I do not play this game to hoover plasteel as quickly as I can. I want the Chests to be able to dynamically react to what’s going on in the game.

5 Likes

Honestly, not a good idea.
High movement speed completely trivializes any enemies, because you can just run away from them, without engaging.

6 Likes

No, the current meta when rushing makes game easier is dumb. Cause you can skip those locations where it would be hard to fight, just by doing things that take no skill but some button spam. It kills level design.

In l4d rushing is a tactic you can use, but it’s very-very risky.

Having high action per minute gameplay is what makes this game good. Beating maelstrom in 30 minutes is dumb, it’s some millennials game design crap when session is just 10 minutes. Game feels more like some racing, rather then action sometimes.

4 Likes

All we need is:

  1. Let us remove locks:
    1st lock for 500 diamantine
    2nd lock for 1000 dimantine

  2. Let us buy blessings from Hadron’s catalogue:
    Lvl II blessings for 300 diamantine
    Lvl III blessings for 450 diamantine
    Lvl IV blessings for 600 diamantine

  3. Let us make one change of stats on our weapon for 500 diamantine
    (for example if we have 80 ammo and 65 mobility - let us change for 65 ammo and 80 mobility)

We do not need more resource drops

6 Likes

They removed that back in patch 13. Most of that stuff was normalised across classes.

Do we have up to date datamined values somewhere?

Whenever i am asking about this, i usually end up being linked the Gameslantern website and there they still list a x1 damage multiplier for sprinting, with exception of Zealot who get a x0,5 multiplier.

This is a good point, so many people have left that game related resources aren’t updated as they should be.

So many others have, just check the player count. And honestly, this is my post break return void shout.

Do you think so? Maybe, but my memory of it is slower, but maybe faster without sprint. With sprint it’s just weird, because people always spirt and do all kinds of things to keep their stamina up, like the constant sliding.

An excellent point, and one I missed, thank you. What I should (and soon will) do is to get a recording of relative movement speeds so we can have it right here to look at.

Teamwork OP, Devs please nerf teamwork.

This is a good point, but even so, it’s better to be able to get around in a timely fashion.

Sure it does, because if you don’t hammer them home they get lost in translation, as I’m sure you’ve noticed in your many years on the interwebz.

There is a small chance this was an exaggeration for effect… though the irritation inherent with the plasteel problem is most certainly real.

You would, that’s more of a comment on it’s hard to get +3 stamina trinkets and plasteel and locks, just adds to the overall injury of the system.

That’s actually kind of what the current system needs. A massive increase in plasteel gathering. Maybe every player gets a servo skull that does nothing but collect plasteel.

Also, let’s change the name of the game from ‘darktide’ to 'plasteel collection online." Because that’s what the game has become. PLASTEEL HUNTERS OF THE 41st Millennium!

I don’t think they are hard to get. I generally only check Brunt’s store when i am playing a character, which is about 3ish hours on 3 to 4 days of the week. And i have quite a lot +3 Stamina Trinkets spare in my inventory, and keep seeing them at least once per week.

17% Toughness and 21% Health curios seem to be much harder to come by.

I would not still play a game like that. While, as i said, i would agree to the increased need for Plasteel, i do not find that Plasteel has become the purpose of me playing. Or hindering me from playing. Matter of fact, over the course of the game i have quite a lot of items of >375 rating. I am not saying i am perfectly happy with all items i have, but Plasteel is certainly not the reason i am growing tired of the game.

1 Like

For some, that’s come to dominate the game entirely. I regret being one of them, but I admit I am.

When we come to a fork, I have to decide if I go with the team or the other way to get whatever plasteel might be down there. Every time. A side hall, does it have plasteel? How long will it take to get back? If I take this gun instead of that, will there be more plasteel? (Because move faster to collect the things others bypass.)

(I named most of my toons a variant on Ivanark as a way to speed up comms, and Ivanark was originally from another game’s name generator.)

Every choice made in the game comes back to making progress on builds and making progress on builds is (under this perfectly awful system,) dictated by plasteel and so every choice in the game is dictated by plasteel.

I’d really like to see the slowest we ever move being a columnus autogun speed, (maybe an exception for a plasma gun,) but we should be faster then +0.55 with an XII or a full sized sword. Maybe 0.75 would be good, and the knives and pistols could be +1.1, with less overall benefit to the zealots who have so many stamina benefits anyway.

And the speed runners make it worse by bypassing everything, which means those actually trying to work with the current system have all the work.

I’m coming to hate the game because of the plasteel problem, and I’m not alone. Many others blame the locks and the rng, and they are absolutely correct that the locks are the main problem making the plasteel bottle neck such an extreme headache. If we could actually deal with the locks, buy blessings for D, the game would be much much less horrible to deal with.

Playing this game has anyone still seriously working with this awful system in plasteel hell. Many don’t even try, many quit the game completely. And when I’ve been tortured enough I’ll go as well, but for now, it’s shouting into the void.

2 Likes

Yup
You summarized it right

When the people who white knight for the game are telling people not to play the game, you know the game is in REAL trouble.

2 Likes

Maybe

In such occasions I prefer to have controll in my hands and just forget about game for like 3 months.
Then, after I come back, it is updated and feels fresh and almost like in the first time.

Only been back about three weeks from about a 9-10 month break.

This is just what it means to play this game with this system.

Welp. Guess you need to wait for a big game changing update then.

I’m sorry it took this much to bring home the reasons why so many have been complaining about the systems in Darktide.

Hello. I want to share my thoughts and agree with some of the comments

I will start with the Veteran portion because that is what I main. People tell me in other posts that the Veteran is fine. We don’t need to change anything. I strongly disagree with this. If you look at any of the base stats for a Veteran and the way the skills work… It is really a mixed bag. It is not specialized in one thing. This causes it to be weaker than say a Zealot in melee

A great example to show this is the Stamina regeneration delay. It is 1.25 seconds on the Veteran. That hasn’t changed from what I can see by Google searches. This makes it SLOWER than the Ogryn at 1 second

What would make sense is to bring in specialties or sub classes. I tried suggesting a few in the past and was largely ignored. One of the many I shared was Brawler… A close range specialist (pistols, shotguns and melee). If that had good stamina/stamina regeneration and mobility, I could see that being beneficial

Tactical axe is indeed slow but also crazy strong. One thing that I think people forget when discussing builds or the weapons… Is that the Power Sword and Claw sword do so little damage to groups that you sit there for far too long trying to slice through everything. With something like the Rashad you don’t do that. One click is enough to destroy 2 or 3 enemies at a time

That brings me to agreeing with one of the comments up there… Going fast paced is not a good idea for this game. In my view, the people who bring a knife and try to out pace the team in randoms is a problem. This is because the slower moving people are forced to fend for themselves and there isn’t anything they can really do about it

Take Veteran for instance… Sure I can take the 5% move speed aura but then I don’t have the ammo sustain of Scavenger. This forces me to a decision… Do I go for long term effectiveness? Or do I try to appease the impatient people who can’t be bothered to spend 30 minutes on a mission?

That said though… I wouldn’t be opposed to a Veteran specialty that does allow for somewhat faster movement than what is currently available because I do struggle to keep up without sprinting (in certain group compositions)

All plasteel grinding should be done with bully club ogryn or TWBS zealot, imo. Either will never be caught with their pants down, and can hit tank a lot to survive if need be. I recommend bully club because it makes a mockery of giant mix groups of elites you wander into being the only one looting, ever. I basically only pick stuff up for the team at this point because I have like 150k plasteel (again). I don’t know why I bother when the chuckleheads are standing in the area lift spamming ‘go there’ while I have 3 big stashes in sight on my rounds.