Plasma Gun - Rework proposal

Good day,
I think the Plasma Gun, an iconic weapon besides the Bolter or the Lasgun, needs a rework. It just does not perform in a practical way as it could and I am sure these issues I see with it can effectively be resolved.

I will therefore first state what changes I propose, followed by an explanation and my reasoning for them.

Plasma Gun

  • Action
    – Special Action - Switch between Standard and Supercharge Mode
    – Primary Action - Hip-fire
    – Secondary Action - ADS

  • Heat
    – Standard: one shot max. 12%
    – Supercharge: one shot min. 45%

  • Damage (based on Diff III)
    – Standard: one-shot “Rager” (bodyshot)
    – Supercharge: one-shot Crusher (bodyshot)

  • Heat dissipation
    – Standard: Delay 1,5 sec - Cooling 12%/second
    – Supercharge: Delay 4 sec - Cooling 20%/second

  • Emergency-Overpressure Vent
    – Auto vent >=90% heat, cool down to 40%
    – Shooting disabled until cooled (at least <=70%)
    – weapon can not be swapped until at least heat <=70%
    – no damage to user
    – Switching between modes disabled until <=40%

  • Animation:
    – remove resetting of the Emergency-Vent at the end of the reload (1. I do not think it is needed but even if then 2. do this reset while the cask is changed)

Mode of operation:
The weapon would overall operate more like other weapons, but mainly as it works now. The first key difference would be that the Special action would no longer mess with the vent (like in real life, overpressure vents are HANDS OFF), but change between “Standard” and “Supercharge” mode.

  • Standard would be the like the primary mode there is now
  • Supercharge would be like the “charged shot” there is now

Difference:

  • Standard would have ADS functionality on secondary action
  • Supercharge would have hip-fire functionality on primary action

This would give the player, regardless of mode, the ability do make “aimed, accurate” shots, while still being able to shoot in close quarters (without ADS).
Also the supercharge mode would charge faster as of now (see further down for reasoning), but gets a bigger delay while dissipating heat.

To bring the weapon more in line with other powerhouses like the bolter, the damage or at least penetration, would increase greatly to one-shot most specials/elites with the standard shot and one-shot e.g. the Ogryns while in supercharge mode.

Regarding other weapons, like the Bolter and Flamer, but also if taken instances from other sources like games, e.g. Dawn of War, Fire Warrior, Space Marine, or the Table Top itself, this damage change would make it overall more viable without messing with the main task:

  • Outstanding punishment against heavy targets

To define/ balance this, normal shots would generate less heat as of now, so that there is still the possibility to overheat, but less likely (so the weapon can, like in other sources, used more freely).
In contrast to this, the supercharge feature would, like the “charged shot” now, fire a bigger, hotter and more dangerous plasma bolt with the drawback that it creates at least 45% heat (just the charging, holding it creates additional heat) and needs some moments to charge.

Consequently the “passive heat venting” would be changed to 12% in standard mode, so that after a short delay additional shoots could be fired (and not like now, where the guns is useless for quite some time or at least for as long as a reload takes).
For the supercharge mode the delay would be longer, but a bit faster, so that it would be possible to fire several supercharge shots, so long as there is enough opportunity for it.

Still, especially in the supercharge mode, the delay and heat build-up would make the weapon likely to explode, if one does not take care. This is one element to balance the weapon (and the supercharge mode).

The other element to balance the power is the emergency-overpressure vent.

Unlike now, this would work automatically if the weapon reaches at least 90% heat and cools it down to 40%.
During this time additional shots are not possible, furthermore it is not possible to put the weapon away until sufficiently cooled (at least <=70%).
Because the veteran has experience and keeps the hands off the vent, there is no damage any more, but to switch between the modes the weapon needs to reaches an operational level again <=40%.

To offset the removed damage and because a catastrophic explosion being avoided, the emergency vent cools only with 10%/sec.

  • Clarification: If the last shot takes the weapon heat OVER 100% it will explode. The vent is no invulnerability mechanism.

Since we already put our hands off the vent and because, like in real life, vents function on their own -there are no hands involved or needed while operating the machine normally (it would be too dangerous)- they are also staying off during the reload.
Meaning the reload will be faster, but still take quite some time.

Reasoning:
As already hinted at, the main point for the proposed changes are other games which show/ use plasma guns/ plasma weapons. Main contestants were for me:

  • Dawn of War (RTS game)
  • Fire Warrior (FPS game)
  • Space Marine (TPS game)

Also I compared the current Plasma Gun with other iconic W40k weapons we have in DT:

  • Bolter
  • Flamer
  • Lasgun

Bolter, because it is the jack-of-all-trades weapon with almost no weakness and as many strengths. Flamer, because it is the Preachers special and while not as versatile as the Bolter with even more raw power.
Lasgun, because she is a reliable and effective weapon, doing all things equally good, without being outstanding. The Lasgun IS outstanding, to be sure, but not as a bolter or flamer.

Last but not least I compared the mentioned weapons(and some more) with the data of the tabletop game and began to work on the proposal.

Used Data (from the Datasheets):
Following Data is coded as
[weapon name], [firing mode], [number of shots], [power of shot/ strength], [armour penetration], [damage/ wounds]

  • Lasgun, NA, 1, 3, 0, 1
  • Boltgun, NA, 1, 4, 0, 1
  • Heavy Bolter, NA, 3, 5, -1, 2
  • Plasma Gun, Standard, 1, 7, -3, 1
  • Plasma Gun, Supercharge, 1, 8, -3, 2
  • Plasma Caliver, Standard, 2, 7, -3, 1
  • Plasma Caliver, Supercharge, 2, 8, -3, 2
  • Meltagun, NA, 1, 8, -4, up to 6

What I gathered from all the Data was that Bolter and Plasma Gun should be much more comparable with the KEY DIFFERENCE, that Bolter is a beast against every-and-anything while the Plasma Gun brings extreme power and armour penetration to the fight.

This is also one reason for the faster charge up time I propose for shots in supercharge mode. Another piece of information for this is from the description of the plasma gun:

While one can conclude from that, that a charged shot also uses more ammo, I see it as a base for the longer delay until the heat dissipation starts.

Closing note:
With all the proposed changes I am confident, that this rework could be done, which would make the Plasma gun much stronger, without being imbalanced, while also demand skill of the user and bringing enjoyment when using it at the same time.

Thanks for reading.
Stay safe and praise the Omnissiah.
Cheers

TL;DR:
Make the Plasma Gun a heavy and armour obliterator while increasing the versatility a bit. Add supercharge mode/ rework charged shots and change heat/ heat dissipation accordingly.

5 Likes

Get a Plasma Gun with good Thermal Resistance and it functions great. TBH I even enjoyed those without it.

So many arguments i will not counter cause i agree with what you say.

Just wanna say that i found for a long time bolter so fare better than the plasma gun, and today, i’m not so sure of that, plasmagun is really very powerfull and well played with the good team and good teamplay it does a BIG difference.
It is certainly NOT a versatil weapon like bolter, autogun, and lazgun.
And yep for me the real problem is that it’s too hot too fast, and reload is so long.
Reload is so long, but you can use the plasma gun in an immediat action after switching, so … it s a big advantage top, idk.

But pretty sure it should be a bit tweak yeah.

2 Likes

I think I get what you mean, also it is just “my proposal”. Of course with a good team and good rolls it can be great, but… Bolter does that without anything ;D

The data I gathered disagrees with that.

I enjoy it too, but seeing other Veterans and myself, the Plasma Gun has a much lower “screentime” than the Bolter and overall even more drawbacks.
Data from other games and the lore contradict that.

Still, I think the gun itself is great, I second this.

1 Like

The Bolter being a jack of all trades weapon will always keep it popular, although I think both it and the Plasma Gun have a higher skill ceiling than most of the other guns. Since the Plasma Gun is more “heavy” it will naturally see less screen time. In the right hands it’s very effective at sniping and deleting priority targets.

If Fatshark adds a Vanguard style difficulty where all the enemy types are a category stronger I think we’ll see a lot more use of the Plasma Gun, but since there’s only a handful of elites on a map (outside of Damnation) most people sleep on it.

3 Likes

But you cant 1shot heavy ogrym with the bolter.

I totally agree that plasma need a little up about overheat or refresh/load timer, but not so much.
Also we must think that it already can be tweak with the craft

But with one mag or even less (especially with support of the team), meaning killing additionally the one odd Rager besides, while the Plasma Gun can not even kill it with Charged Shots (before it over heats) - and even if it kills it, it becomes useless for some time, the Bolter already killing the next one and several elites.

With my proposed rework it would bring it more in line with the bolter, without making it op or remove the skill-level needed to deploy it.

1 Like

you cant oneshot an chaos ogryn with a plasma rifle either… bolter is even faster in killing them then plasma rifle.

1 Like

Plasma absolutely chunks boss health. More so if you have Unyielding perks on it, hit weak spots and have talents to back it up.

3 Likes

I think plasma doesn’t need such aggressive changes.

The left click should function identically to the lucius hellborne lasguns, if you click, it immediately fires off a weaker shot, or you can hold left click to charge.

If left click handled all firing, they could allow right click to aim down sight which I feel the plasma gun really needs to zoom a little for long distance targets.

Special would stay as venting, but should only damage you if you vent at 80% or higher, this gun should test a player’s ability to not panic fire and manage resources well.

I also feel like plasma guns should have a little more ammo bc you only get 1 ranged weapon so it feels bad letting your team kill ranged mobs so you can save ammo for threats.

It takes you out of gameplay occasionally and I feel the plasma gun should be about managing heat, ammo in magazine, and not missing bc you generate more heat and get closer to that 5 year reload.

Overheating was a mechanic in vermintide, but in that game you didn’t need to worry about a long reload time and hurting while venting was only a thing if you put heat to max. Don’t make ammo limited for a weapon that already juggles a lot.

1 Like

While I liked the mode form the lore and wanted to keep the gun “complex”, I like your ideas a lot!
Especially the point with the Lucius sound very efficient and fitting (because it is already in the game).

With a higher threshold even the venting would be acceptable I guess, mh.
Regarding the ammo I am not sure, on one hand I think it generates to much heat overall, but ammo is also a problem! But more ammo alone, would still mean much venting.
If the venting would be quite faster (especially if done manually!) and more consistent (at least my gun cools faster if I let it be) I too would opt for bigger ammo bags!

The only change i think the plasma gun really needs is a bit more damage.

One that that really, really makes me seethe about the plasma gun is that it doesn’t 1hit shooters in damnation if you hit them in the arm/hand. It doesn’t sound like a big issue at first, but when they are aiming at you or in your general direction, the way they hold their gun puts their arm right over center mass. I hate having to either go for stomach shots or head shots with a gun that should 1hit.

Maybe I need a better gun, but mine has decently high dmg and stopping power. Maybe with ideal stats it works, idk.

Also, venting should vent at the same rate regardless of whether i vent from 100% or from 10%. I want to be able to vent a little bit of heat after each shot quickly to keep up firepower in prolonged firefights.

That, or just remove the vent damage. Psyker doesn’t take self-damage to vent after a brain pop, and brain pop actually does more damage than an uncharged plasma gun shot.

Bolter does approx. (slightly lower) the same damage with higher fire rate, even in secondary fire mode, without the need to vent after 5 shots. So much about “chunking boss health”. Point is that every Perk/Blessing and talent can be applied to every other weapon as well, so this is no argument which gives the plasma rifle any further advantage.

Dont get me wrong, i love the plasma rifle, its the initial reason why i started a veteran, but there is no reason to use the Veteran Only Class Weapon because it just lacks behind the bolter in every single aspect, a weapon which can be used by every other class!

Charged shot is totally worthless giving 2x damage for 2,5x generated heat without any further advantage. If it at least would give a really significant damage increase for the generated heat… like a aoe burst for horde clearing or similar.

the reload/venting times are the second drawback, in the same time i fire 5 shots, or 2 charged shots (which need 2secs to charge up) and cool down the weapon, i emptied 2 full bolter mags on a boss, for approx the same dmg per shot, 30 shots vs 5… the dps gap can be calculated quite easily.

finally: in a game without regular heals inplementing a weapon that damages its user is just ridiculous. Psyker bursts when reaching 100 warp,plasma rifle blows up when shot with 100 heat, so far so good, im ok with it, but i get my ass burned when venting the rifle, which makes it even more useless, especially when considering that venting 10 heat takes as long as venting 100 heat, so it makes no sense to cool down after every shot.

Conclusion:
Here we have given the most useless ranged weapon the the designated ranged weapon specialist while giving him the most powerful melee weapon at the same time. It would made me laugh if it were not that sad…

1 Like

I agree with most of what you wrote, it needs some love.
One big correction though, charged plasma shot is almost 4x dmg of single bolter shot. There are no specials/elites in the game that survives 2 charged shots(T5) if you can aim. An exception may be a bulwark, due to shield but the same can be said for bolter. And Mutant needs 3 shots due to healthpool.
Bolter:


Plasma:

Plasma indeed overheats too fast, would be nice to get about 2 more charged shots with it.
Bolter is also much worse against Carapace armor and Infested (but that is not an issue).

1 Like

2550 damage in a single shot.

Yes you can perform 1shot in t5 on heavy armored ogryms, you need, the right plasma gun n build, anyway we all agree it needs a tweak

1 Like

Thanks for your post.
I like your two pics, especially since they show the issue is see with the plasma gun:

Bolter: five shots -5x 389 = 1945- against Flak Armour
which is more Damage than one charged shot of the plasma gun.
Also faster, without issues (charge time/ opportunity), without heat.
-without the 20% against Flak it is still 1620, just 11 damage short-

Bolter: six shots -6x 365 = 2190- against Unyielding
which is again more Damage than the plasma gun, again with less issues (and could done even as hip-fire, because 6 shots = 3 bursts)

Only Carapace Armour gives the Bolter a Headache, but still this is no issue, because 6 bursts = 12 shots, make even more damage once again.

All the while only shooting at the body. If shot on the weakspot Bolter is even stronger!

So the Bolter delivers against anything more damage

  • in less time
  • no opportunity issues (no charge time, no charge cancel because of one hit)
  • no heat issues
  • while ammo / weapon management efficient
  • no crazy long reload (crazy as in that the vent could reset itself while the cask is changed at least)
  • with AOE stagger

than the Plasma Gun.

The Plasma Gun really needs greatly increased damage/ a rework, because alone fire rate/ need to charge/ heat/… limit its usefulness overall already massively.

I am sure with good Perks and Blessings it can be a beast in some niche, but a Bolter will still be a good choice, even with bad rolls.
I am certain the Plasma Gun needs way more power against heavy targets and at least some localised stagger or heat-effect/damage against trash mobs.

2 Likes

For sure, also since Plasma is only on Vet, a class with traits that can greatly reduce any drawbacks of bolter… it is what it is.

1 Like

LIke you proposal, i just wanna see the plasma not unsing Ammo and only using Heat mechanic. Also shooting from the hip i normally dont like it too much, but onthe Plasma it just feels right man. I like the idead of venting, but i also like the Venting Animations, especially the last part when it drills back.
Its super cool iMO ^^
ALso dont forget, W30k/40k not all makes sense all the time. They did some good research on lots of things before and when they wrote Books. You cant have it all right. The Venting on the Bottom made sense back there and we want Lore apporpiate thing right. This is what they do and we went back to Middle Ages in Warhammer with Scifi Technology. There was a Reason Volkite was the very best and was handed to a lot of normal Humans in the Solar Auxilia.
So Plasma is not Perfect bit its a step back probably from Volkite. But its Good enough for the 1st and the Lion so its good enough for me ^^

and NOW

SHHHH…t t… FF… UP
Plasma Caliver… ooohh man in cant wait for Mechanicum, havent seen this Sheet :scream: :confounded: :persevere: :astonished: :partying_face: :partying_face: :partying_face:

Didn’t bother reading the post; the Plasmagun works fine now.