See, I don’t have an issue with that either. I like carrying and feel good when I do, haha. So whoever wants to be in there is okay by me. I don’t like losing either, but that’s usually an issue that’s on me, not the person who goes in expecting to be carried.
I don’t think paywalling a difficulty necessarily keeps people wanting to be carried out. It just keeps the people who want to play Cata and maybe can’t afford to, from doing so.
I would also prefer to open cata for free but something that could also work is a stand alone offer for cata for everyone who isnt interested WOM´s other content.
And lets be honest, cata is still pretty easy, im 100% sure everyone who puts a bit of effort into improving will get to the point where he can burst through cata. I would also be ok with FS just releasing Cata3Dw as a new highest difficulty and make cata free for all.
I know it’s probably not a great solution for some people, but maybe they could just steal an idea from some of their contemporaries and scale the difficulty based on the number of players and avoid incorporating bots for the most part(maybe if you’re solo you could have a dedicated bot helper?).
You wouldn’t have to change anything regarding what’s free and what’s paid DLC or whatever and it lets people play whenever they want. I’d have liked this kind of thing when I was still playing - my group of friends has almost always been just the three of us so we’d have to drag a bot or rando through no matter what. I imagine it’d just be changes to special spawn rates and the number of enemies and elites within hordes, etc. Not to downplay the work involved, but this potentially future-proofs the game as well when it inevitably stops receiving support.
As an aside, it’s weird periodically coming back to the game and feeling how irrelevant the other difficulties are. It is a little silly that the only real challenge mode is behind a paywall.
I suspect you are in such a miniscule %age of the gaming population here, and props to you for having that patience. I think currently people who are in Cata have paid to be there, know what they’re in there for and largely understand you can’t just rock up and get face-dragged through it and will actively seek the guidance and support @Palesz mentioned. Opening it to everyone will completely change the calibre, attitude and toxicity levels of Cata as there are huge swathes of people who simply don’t care about your opinion and consider themselves awesome anyhow. Drink the healing, drop off ledges , trigger bosses, lob a bomb at a patrol and miss, die and blame you. Or drop. Or all of the above.
There are people playing Legend who don’t even know blocking is 360 degrees, and they will sully cata for the few who do play it. I can really appreciate the frustration of not having any PUGs to join, but it should tell people that those who are currently playing Cata, probably belong there as they’ve paid for it. Not everyone belongs there.
@Iceolator You may find Cata a breeze, but the majority of games are still Champion and Veteran. To counter my own arguments, I suppose if the majority aren’t even playing Legend they’re not going to play Cata so it won’t matter if it’s free, but the point is the only player base you’re going to attract players from is Legend, and those who really want cata are already there.
I don’t mind new players, but I can see your point as well.
Players who seem more like a hindrance to your party can be annoying. But remember back when you were that guy/girl. I remember me rising up to legend. I sucked for a while. Now Legend seems like cake!
It was worse with Cata. I was joining Cata VERY late, didn’t even really try it out, because I simply thought I was still not good enough. I tried perfecting my Legend runs, until I finally gave myself a push. And then I didn’t suck as bad as my first Legend runs. (It was still horrific of course)
What surprised me most is that I never got flamed.
And I don’t really think players will stick that very long around in Cata if they suck THAT bad.
They’ll probably get back to Legend and will try Cata again later?
What about rising the requirements for running Cata-games, to make sure the players have experience?
Right now it’s killing all Lords on Legend if I remember correctly.
What about a number of Legends runs have to be won?
All heroes on lvl 35?
But putting a difficulty behind a paywall, just seems very strange to me.
You are not ready for cata in 50-60 h of gaming and thats already enough to throw some cash at FS for doing such game that you dedicate enough hours to be good enough to play it.
With the paywall, you must understand, that WoM was all about the weaves. But they did that while disregarding everything players asked for 1,5 years.
Once we entered the beta, it took like 2 weeks until they realized, that it’s going to be their biggest fail yet. So they had to add more stuff to it to justify the price and give it content that might actually be desired. Thus we got the rest of the package.
There is no objective treshhold for Cata.
Optimally you’d have to take a test about the deeper mechanics of the game, like pacing, positioning, various triggers, how the AI director works. But this is not possible in a game.
I’d put it behind hours played, somewhere around 300-500 . But even this is unrealistic.
So we’re stuck with no real loot, to make it optional and not make people feel entitled to be able to play it.
Arrg. Funny. I forgot Weaves were actually a part of the DLC.
Your argument would make sense.
If I remember correctly I started Cata at roughly 300 hours? Maybe even later at 400, because I waited so long. …
Many players will probably get shooed away if they see 300 hours. Playing a game that long takes dedication.
Difficult topic.
No, thanks. The other day I QPd into a party of two guys - one with 86h played and the other had like 140+. At the moment I had around 1000h in game, and my Sienna is lvl 1 because I’m not a completionist and I don’t enjoy that particular character. We had a blast on Cata that day.
I think the lack of tangible reward in and of itself is enough to tip the reward/frustration scale towards not playing cata from most players that are considered toxic or just not “gud”. So no, plz don’t make us pass an exam to play a certain difficulty.
As for paywalling it - I’m kind of ambivalent. Or should I say that I care very little about this stuff. I don’t think there will be lobbies and lobbies full of cata players that one can actually enjoy playing in if the difficulty was open to everyone. Its came to pass that way and I don’t think FS will change that now.
Fun fact. Forum says you replied to OP post but Perteks decided to quote and reply to you 
Totally agree. I think it’s good fun to challenge other people to reach new difficulty threshold, especially if you have one or two more players that you can somewhat rely on. Mostly, if the person doesn’t give up, they start pulling their weight real soon.
On the other hand. You wont do anyone favors if they’re not open for spontaneous advise, no matter how well meant it is. Also, in my experience there are plenty of people giving really bad advice as well, unfortunately. If a new player were to take that advice they’d do everyone a disfavor. I’ve also had quite a few players playing the blame game because they think they have a superior understanding of the game mechanics. So, all sorts out there.
For me, personally, if I am in over my head and is paired with better players I try to follow their lead. If I’m in an opposite situation I try to steer my team with voice or simple social wheel commands. I also use the social wheel to call people “Monster!” a lot, but that’s a different story.
That’s really not for you to decide. Just like you should never kick someone for not having reached a specific level. It could be a very skilled player pushing itself hard or it could be a smurf account. Doesn’t really matter. There are at least a few people actively playing that never even touched legend after a few hundred hours, and despite the time they put in they’d certainly not be Cata ready because of it. For an example see the post quoted below.
Same for thats really not for you to decide that cata should be free 
funfact forum got me msg about reply
Don’t get me wrong, I have nothing against your message and I haven’t problems to deal with Cata… but we can’t continue to feed certain myths.
Seeing lobbies in game, only the 5% of the community plays Cata. And only the 1-2% of that 5% can carry themself… and only the 0,1-0,3% can carry the entire team (and there are certain situations, if you are playing solo, where even the strongest player of Vermintide in the entire world dies).
Obvly, lobbies that I see apart, I haven’t any objective facts… just my experience.
Anyway, about Cata3, it’s fun but it can’t be an official part of the game… the mere increase of numbers (damage, hp) it’s never a good way to balance a difficulty.
I’m not sure what you mean, as I haven’t weighed in on the matter. If you really want my opinion on it I can try to get back to you about it. 
Where are you getting these numbers to make these claims? I think only FS has player stats on who plays what. Especially on who can carry and who doesn’t? (Edit: on you making carrying claims, not FS having carrying stats)
Re: Cata3, why isn’t it? I’ve been pretty shocked that pubs will go into a cata3 game and play it until it crashes. The reaction tends to be “woah. Again!” For sure, it’s not for everyone, but what is and is not a “good” way to make a more difficult game mode is super subjective. Twins increases numbers by a fair margin by attrition (I think that’s the word I’m looking for here), and it’s generally accepted as the more preferred mutator.
It’s easy to sit and go, “people can’t do this,” but FS I think deliberately builds a game that, given time and effort, everyone can achieve.
Its soul23 he never have any real data he just go with whatever he wants without any facts ;D
Not that they aren’t working together. 4 people work together fine. My point was more that the playstyle with 2 people 2 bots is different to 4 people, and therefore makes the game more difficult. It’s mainly because of the clunkiness of the bots.
I was going to suggest this, but I’m pretty sure something like this already exists, but for playing with 1 person no bots, 2 people no bots, etc etc.
Not sure if it applies to 1 person 3 bots, so it may still be a good idea, considering you have to do 75% of the total damage and that severely limits what builds you can play.
E.g. FK can struggle to keep up, while Merc or Shade can easily solo maps with little help from the bots (if you’re playing the cheesier builds ofc
@Exanimia I said it clearly… I was just writing my personal experience. But the lobbies are pretty objective, I see that only a very small minority plays Cata.
Then, I don’t know… maybe we play different games. Maybe you are super-lucky. Maybe I’m super-unlucky. But say that the majority of Cata players knows how to play Cata… it seems to me just false.
About Cata3, it would be enough also see how players have reacted to weaves and their crazy damage output… anyway I don’t agree. Tastes count without doubts, but there are some rules about how increase a difficulty. In a game where enemies can spawn at our back and attack us without any sound, it’s not pretty fair be one-shotted. Just to do an example.
Or again: imagine Specials with an incredible amount of HP… this destroys every balance around specials killer careers.
It’s important avoid that the difficulty becomes artificial or random… I mean, boost numbers is fine until a certain point. With Cata they reached a very good compromise (most careers die with two hits; overhead attacks almost one-kill tank careers too, there are precise breakpoints and in most cases you need an headshot)… but going on this way it’s just a lazy solution that, sure, could be fun for few players, but it creates problems like meat wall/bullet sponge enemies or the other ones written obove… just to do a couple of examples.
Oh, hi polite Perteks! I see you continue your work with your motivated and kind comments… don’t give up: this forum needs your contribution.
Just to be clear, that’s not a c3 problem, that’s a damage scaling problem on how upper weaves work. C3 doesn’t 1-shot you. +x% scaling of damage on TOP of Cata 3 does. (FS took steps to fix this in S2 and they play much better) C3 is plenty doable with effort and wholly survivable. Even on c3 with 650 hp, if you use the right breakpoints you can kill most things in 2-shots (1 if headshot). FS designed c3 for weaves with above 650 hero power, so generally it feels like regular Cata.
I think you’re just having awful luck tbh. I’ve had good success in pubs and most are proficient. A wipe doesn’t mean a team doesn’t know how to play, that’s just part of pubbing. People made that argument in Legend, too.
Overall, I’m not a fan of arguments that gatekeep difficulties because people believe players don’t “deserve” to be there, but unless someone explicitly states they want carries of whatever reason, you just don’t know their reasoning and I’d rather give the benefit of the doubt. And navigating tough situations in game makes it exciting and is a good teaching tool (for others and myself) as well.
About C3 we just have a different opinion… Without doubts it can be fun, but it’s based too much on “increasing numbers” to be part of the official game (even seeing only the simple situation you described where a specials killer career can’t bodyshot a special, considering how much they can be unfair/bugged, even at Legend, and considering you could have only one second to hit it since it could be hidden between a meat wall of enemies with boosted HP… C3 can’t be considered “canon”… but opinions, I guess). Indeed Fatshark already said it, Cata is the final difficulty.
Don’t get me wrong, I wasn’t talking about “victory or defeat”… but how players play. There can be a good team that loses just for bad luck… or there can be a victory where X player carried the team… or maybe where AI director has been kind.
I don’t know if I have understood your words but… I never said that someone doesn’t deserve X mod/difficulty.
Can you further explain this to me? I’m not sure I understand. Are you saying you want special killers to be able to body shot all specials in one shot in difficulties above legend?