Once again scoreboard

Warhammer 40,000: Darktide Gameplay Feedback
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“Some”, likely a minority in both of our experiences. This is meaningless for the purposes of this discussion. Unless their impact on the rest of the playerbase is disproportionate (doubtful in this case) it makes no sense to let their behaviors dictate design choices (such as whether to adopt a scoreboard or not). Having your game design encourage or discourage prosocial behavior is a thing that actually works. Here’s a quote from a paper (linked below):

“The critical dimension that seems to determine whether violent games are associated with helping, prosocial behavior versus malevolent, antisocial behavior is the extent to which they are played cooperatively versus competitively. For example, players who play violent games that encourage cooperative play are more likely to exhibit helpful gaming behaviors online and offline than those who play nonviolent games. . .”

You do know that even if what you’re saying is the case, it still isn’t relevant to the argument right? Even then, this is ridiculous at face value IMO, since what you’re arguing in essence is that the majority of people are incapable of learning the game.

Got it. So your “argument” is that your personal experience reflects reality for the whole of the playerbase, and that every single player that bought and plays VT2 also bought and plays DT (what is context).

To be fair we’re both engaging in speculation, though this doesn’t mean there isn’t at least some circumstantial evidence to support my stance. See how a lot of people behave on here and the steam forums when airing their grievances and engaging with others, at least in the sense that you wouldn’t talk to other people like that IRL. Now nudge those people in the direction of being pro or anti social through the game’s systems, some may not change, sure, but what evidence we do have affirms that the ability of design affecting people’s pro- or anti-social behaviors is indeed possible to a significant extent. Therefore, the board encouraging competitive behavior can result in antisocial behavior.

I’m sorry for the condescension but I just don’t know how else to respond to your points, and if you can’t tell why . . . Let’s just agree to disagree and drop this.

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You are completely misrepresenting almost everything that i said.

It is not meaningless for the purpose of this discussion.
You said that competition can enable antisocial behavior.
My point is, that the few very anti social people will behave in an anti social way, no matter what. Same thing with those who are in a bad mood for a moment.
If there is no scoreboard that allows them to talk smack about someone’s actual performance stats, they can still tell their teammates how bad they are. Alternatively, they will find something else to talk smack about, or find an other way to express themselves.
I also say, that a scoreboard might make some people engage in a specific toxic behavior that they would not engage in otherwise, but at the same time a scoreboard will also remove some specific toxic behavior that would happen otherwise.

Yet the “anti scoreboard crowd” frequently makes the argument that having a scoreboard would cause toxic behavior, and want to make design choices based on the behavior of those people.

No.
What you say here has absolutely nothing to do with what i said.
I did not say that people are incapable of learning.
I said that people are incapable of objectively judging their own general performance (without the help of a scoreboard).

No.
That is not what i said.
But having a sample size of a few thousand is pretty good, i would say.

No.
At this point i have to ask: Are you trolling?

What is it recently, with people completely misrepresenting everything that someone says, when replying to them (even though they include citations that show what the person actually said)?

43

It seems to me, most people who throw word “team-play” around, don’t really understand it and use it instead of saying “my way”. Don’t know if that is your case.
So, to actualy discuss this, we must determine what is team-play in Darktide first. If we want to discuss this at all.

I’ll just throw this for now.

Performing team-play actions does not prevent you from being an efficient killer.
You want your team alive and well if you are actually competing. Alive teammates will decrease enemy pressure on you just by existing, they also might deal with enemy types that you bad against. Both of those things will allow you to focus more on your specialization, which helps you become an efficient killer.

Anti-social and anti-team-play behaviors might happen, but to prove competition to be their cause seems really hard to me. Because the range of possible reasons includes things like:
mistakes, unawareness, ignorance, confusion, etc., which seems far more likely to me.

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44

Well you see, your assumption is crashing about our prosaic reality. There is a scoreboard in different pve coop games - Left 4 Dead 2, Killing Floor 2, and even in Deep Rock Galactic. Aswell it is there in Vermintide 1 and 2. And it is not the scoreboard incentivize toxicity in any of this games, but being a deadweighter.

In case with Tide games it’s in design, there is no pure healers or pure tanks, it’s about the faster you kill things, the easier run goes. Well, in V1 there was some specialization with trinkets - people were choosing to focus their trinket loadout on bombs, healshare, consumables looting.

And another thing is people are not so stupid, noone expecting from certain careers to be good at work they are not supposed to do. I will be toxic towards vet that is focusing on poxwalkers with his shredder autopistol, while there are snipers pressing his team, i don’t need a scoreboard to understand he is an idiot. However i’m quite tolerant to non-expirienced but doing their best players.

Is there an ego-jerking element in scoreboard when it’s highlighting good players? Yes, and it’s a good thing it’s a kind of reward, and you can compare your stats with other players when you are playing careers they were. So you can ask yourself “damn how he is good with this weapon/career, i need to try a different approach”

That “oh what if someone will expirience toxicity cause of green circles and maybe will cry all day after that, so he will never come back again to the game” mentality should go, it’s a part of why so many games are crap today. Gaming standarts > soy feelings, sorry. First there will be no basic, gold-standart features cuase of “toxicity” (lies) then there will be no basic features cause of some another reason (lies again), then just because (truth), but pls pre-order our game.

I also wonder how console players will use mods without Fatshark official providing.

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45

Subjective intuition I guess… which would make everyone belong to the elite :wink:
You know, including timmy no thumbs who’s hardstuck in uprising but still better than his pet rock…

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Can we not be disingenious? Obviously these are not mutually exclusive, I wasn’t born yesterday. Obviously if you can’t do enough damage, you can’t contribute to the team, that much is obvious. But again, as it seems I’m stuck having to remind folks of in this convo, what is nuance? The same way these are not mutually exclusive, neither are they necessarily totally inclusive, just because you’re an “efficient killer” doesn’t necessarily mean you’re a good teammate either.

Here are some samples of situations I’ve seen where being an efficient killer gets in the way or conflicts with team play:

  • “Shoot Everything that Moves” vet, even if its a pox walker that the team’s zealot/ogryn is about to turn into red mist. Is flabbergasted later in the run when they refuse to mob clear for him during a special wave. Is irrelevant or deadweight for the rest of the run if not a god vet with situational awareness bordering on omniscience, and horde clear ability that could easily challenge a mediocre flamer zealot. Team eventually gets overrun or frequently mauled but survives the run.

  • Mutant or dog charges team, everyone focuses it, even people that were looking in the opposite direction, different threat takes advantage of the gaps in awareness, one or even multiple of the team’s horde clear specialized players is disabled or dropped. Team gets overrun or mauled but survives the run.

  • Chasing a trapper to melee it, instead of picking up the guy that just got netted, and you just ran past by. Rest of the team is tied up elsewhere. Gap in cover is exploited, team gets picked apart, and guy in net dies. Team is overrun or gets mauled but survives.

  • Team is facing a large push forward, 3 players are focusing that, barely, but holding, a third covers the rear as the usual trickle of mobs, flamers, and the occasional dog hits the rear. A special hitting the rear comes close enough for someone up front to notice, they instantly chase the dopamine hit and neglect their sector. Team is overrun or gets mauled but survives.

  • You get "That Guy"™ zealot or ogryn player, you know the type, you’ve seen the memes. Spends 75% of the match outside of coherency + 25m to 100m from the team, they survive, maybe even overperforms (rarely). Meanwhile the rest of the team is stuck on survival mode trying to deal with being essentially down 1 player the entire run. If they don’t have a godking psyker, a CSGO aimbot vet or another zealot or ogryn that actually cares to remember that this is a multiplayer game they eventually get overrun or constantly get mauled but survive. Then the ubermensch ogryn/zealot either manages to finish alone or dies in a corner surrounded by everything in the map. Either way everyone is miserable the entire time, except maybe "That Guy"™.

  • Team’s resident ubermensch goes off to chase a sniper or grenedier that the team’s vet or psyker would’ve dropped if they now weren’t stuck now dealing with a horde slowly accumulating around them as they try to keep said superman alive as they fail to notice every disabler that beelines for them but somehow never reaches him, curious. Once their mates are no longer able to maintain cover for "That Guy"™, he either gets dropped and the rest have to go and res or gets mauled but somehow survives.

  • Play shoot the blue highlights game, “dAmNiT pSyKeR, y u nO daMagE1!!11!” or “dAmNiT pSyKeR, y u nO cC1!!11!”.

  • 3 out of four rarely ever look back or check on each other. They’re doing well, sweep away everything that dares to stand before them. Fail to notice the team vet or psyker has been protecting their rear and flanks for most of the run, unsupported. If said vet or psyker isn’t John Wick, they eventually end up being gang rpd behind a dumpster by two mutants, a dog, and a trapper. Team is eventually overrun by a flank or rear push if they don’t rescue the dead guy on time.

Chasing efficiency is not the be all end all.

Last I’ll say on the topic as ya’ll don’t seem interested in considering any perspective on the matter other than your own.

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47

It dose mean you are a good teammate. But you can be better if you can be an efficient survivor as well.

you missed the part efficient before killer.

That first example is very weird. Why would zealot and ogryn refuse to mob-clear? Because they get upset that vet killed their poxwalker? And what do they even do then? Why vet is supposed to be flabbergasted by having to deal with horde and specials at the same time, and even on your own? That’s when the actual game starts.

what kind of gap in awareness is supposed to happen for you to die during slaughter of one special by 4 people. you close your ears? you forgot about horde behind you? Or is it taking so long, you ran out of dodges? And how are you suppose to know if that special is going to be dealt with by others if you up front?
Again, you missed the part “efficient”, it includes prioritising different targets in different situations.

Lol, how is that related to being an efficient killer? This is pure case of ignorance. You can’t outran trapper, do you know that? or you being disingenuous? Trappers also do not running away immediately after they trapped someone. you have enough time to release and then kill trapper in melee.

Saw it once in game

So one dude is surviving alone, but 3 of you struggle? how is that? Especially if we consider that, enemies can’t just ignore someone, they divided between all living players.

That is a bit closer to actual “Efficient killer” problem, that i hope someone can finaly bring up one day. But this case is overblow as usual.

You dont chase them, you don’t chase anything in this game, you just killing it on sight. Who are you playing with? do they know they have ranged weapons?
And how psyker and vet is unable to deal with sniper or bomber, but somehow able to cover a guy who is apperantly decided to chase sniper with a knife?
And where is “efficient killer” part gone again? Do i need to explain that chasing specials with melee is not realy efficient?

That is kinda true

They just afraid of gaps in awareness. Id assume they ignore multiple special sound cues from behind for the same reason. You just contradicted yourself 2 time already.

No one in your examples chased any efficiency. It all looks like new player mistakes.

And yes being efficient is to try your best to be all and all. In dark tide and vermintide that efficiency consist of 2 things - killing and surviving.
Efficient killer is to prevent bad things.
Efficient Survivor is to deal with bad thing, when they happen.
Merge those two, add a team-play and that will be the gameplay.

If you know how to survive, you know how to team-play.
I consider survival as necessary part of “Efficient killer”, because you can’t kill if you are dead.

That works both ways.
All i was doing is considering your perspective. I just didn’t find much reason to agree.

48

I hope i can finally shut up now. That’s why i hate scoreboard discussion resurrections.

49

Have to disagree here.
I had a run with an ogryn yesterday (relay station), who did not do anything else except killing and surviving.

The guy was Ogryn with Grenadier Gauntlet, which is probably the best objective-carry-setup in the game, did not carry power cells for the first objective (although this is the ogryn job) and did not attack the pimples on the final objective to open up the eyes.
The guy could have easily ran around with power cells in the first objective and popped the 3 pimples + eye within 3 seconds by himself, shooting them with the GG.
Yet the ogryn was ALWAYS out of position, usually far away from the team and focusing all of his attention on completely pointless things.
When he accidentally was with the team, the guy did not use his ult or the GG to stagger and damage crushers, but ran around them to keep focusing down the already burning trashmobs.

The guy had the most kills at the end, because he kept focusing down the hordes i was already burning with my staff, ran backwards through the map when ever a horde came from behind, ignored objectives and kept farming kills in locations where it was worthless to the team.

Guy was always so far away from where he should be, that enemies still came from that direction to attack those who played the objective.
When one guy is far away fighing, someone else sees it and wants to fight too, so a second and maybe a third player joins the fight in the bs position. The group gets stretched out and a lot of time is wasted.

Although the guy had the most kills at the end, the run would have legitimately gone better if the guy had been a bot instead.
Guy had the portrait frame for „1500 matches completed“ and still played so badly.

I do not blame the scoreboard though.
Because a lot of people simply play very badly and without any awareness or thought.
What the ogryn showed, was simply lore accurate brainless behavior: „me see enemy, me go kill“.

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50

Now that is much better example.
Have to agree i was wrong there, and mite somewhere else as well.
I am assuming alot of stuff, in attempt to not drown everything in text.
So i assumed that if you know how to teamplay, then you do teamplay. Apparently not always the case.

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