Nurgloth fight needs addressal

When designing maps, particularly ones in a quickplay pool, there should be a general consistency in difficulty as players go through them. There will be rises and falls throughout the map via scenarios like “terror events”, which are fine. However, when you run into scenarios like the latest map, Enchanter’s Lair, the spike is too sharp and great and creates a series of problems. Namely, players don’t have fun because they go through an entire map only to consistently fail at the very end.

The majority of the map is a typical playthrough but once you hit the boss, it begins to escalate at a sharper and sharper pace as you proceed through his phases. Problems faced with the boss:

  • The flies that come out are very fast and are done in pairs. They disable the player for very long periods of time. They can be chained against a player. They have flawless heat seeking that will follow you no matter how you move. They should be given an additional weakness so players can more reasonably counter them. Examples would be:

    • Getting hit by any source of damage releases you from the flies(so you take a hit from an enemy but are released afterwards, rather than being guaranteed death).

    • Can’t be chained into fly after fly.

    • Can be dodged if timed just right.

    • Shorten the duration of the disable to something like 5 seconds.

This is unnecessary in Halescourge because Burblespue’s flies aren’t nearly as fast and don’t come in pairs. The fight in general on Halescourge isn’t as intense.

  • Like every major Lord Fatshark designs, there are endless enemies spawning as you fight. It’s periodic at first but in the last phase there is no break. It’s an endless stream of enemies and that takes away from the boss and makes it unenjoyable for the general player because instead of experiencing a “boss fight” you’re experiencing “horde simulator arena”.

    • If the developers are insistent on having endless hordes, there should always be a lull in the storm. That is to say, there should be moments where there are few or no horde enemies at all. This is really only a problem during the last phase when he’s chasing players; particularly if it’s last man standing.
  • The final phase where he chases players.

    • Hordes never end.

    • Allies revive in the fire rings. The fire rings have extremely short detonation timers. Because of this, it is inevitable that the reviving player and/or the revived player will be hit by the fire rings.

    • His chasing sweeps of his weapon can’t be dodged. He will always send the player flying on his third swing. This causes the player to be forced to drop their block and take hits on the flight. It is also highly likely that they’ll be sent into the fire rings at some point. The problem is the lack of counterplay. He can’t be staggered or otherwise stopped when he’s in this mode. He also can’t be dodged. This means last man standing can’t revive allies without being knocked back by him or being hit by a fire ring. Only dashes or stealth can allow a last man standing to revive, which should not be the case. Because he will not change from this form until he is killed, it also means the last man standing can’t outlast him either to try and get revives. The oppression makes it unreasonable to try and get hits on him as well.

Vermintide isn’t the same as a game like Doom Eternal, where it can crescendo levels into a climatic and over-the-top finale that’s extremely difficult. Vermintide has to have consistency from level to level because of what’s expected from players as an experience. Players should also be able to run through quickplays with moderate consistency in their success rate. If they can’t and they come across an experience like this, the map will become the new “skippergate” and players will suicide in the start to skip it all together. That should not ever happen. If players begin doing this for a level, it means there is something wrong with the level that needs to be promptly addressed.

P.S. It’s also important to note that Nurgloth is indeed Berserker and Chaos, but not Monster.

Monster Property:

Chaos Property:

Berserker Property:

If you’re wondering why the Chaos property has 2 less body shot damage for being 1% less, I think it had something to do with Nurgloth taking slightly more damage due to “stagger” (he was bugging out a bit in some of my runs and simply sitting there indefinitely). I don’t fully know. One such bug is this endless fly madness that hopefully no one else has experienced:


@OenKrad ur post is dead accurate in all. but i think in order to fix this boss is just to remove fire ring on final phase
final phase FIRE RING pros and cons list
this is just me who will share my pros and cons about FIRE RING on final phase.


  1. lets start with critical one most of careers CANT safe revive. tbh i dont get it how did this pass the testing? who is testing ur game on cata Fatshark…???
  2. some time u get lunch in space. bug-glitch out
  3. the damage is absurd
  4. players most of the time get hit by last swing of the boss and end up in fire ring surrounded by horde, enemies start attack in jump animation so all u can do is hold block, but ur block is already broken 99% u end up dead 1% u have ult. ready and get some space.
  5. im sure there is more


  1. horde die on it
  2. just remove it…

this is my experience on cata only


I can’t say I agree with this. I’ve already expressed what I think about this in another thread, but I don’t think that that all maps have to have such an arbitrary balance. It’s fine if one map is a bit harder than the others. You also, in my opinion, overestimate how hard the map is. Just from my own experience I can say that I’ve done this mission several times on Legend QP, with random people and killed him just fine with no specialized boss killers and only like 1 person dying. Just me as crossbow RV, longbow WS, s&s FK and then I think like a Zealot. Of course, this is just my experience.

I dunno man, the flies are absolutely not a problem. There are 4 pillars for you to hide behind, they come in pretty slow if you’re at the southern wall opposite the boss and you can hit the flies as they come in with your melee or ranged weapon to destroy them in one hit. You can do this as you’re fighting enemies too. The only possible way that the flies are any significant threat is if the entire team is on opposite sides of the map, and even then you can use a ranged weapon to free them. Definitely not a problem in my opinion, and I haven’t heard anyone complain about this first phase.

Personal opinion, but I don’t agree. It’s not that big of a horde in Legend, and during these hordes the boss is not aggressive and isn’t actively killing you in melee or anything. You’re pretty free to focus on the hordes while the boss mainly just acts as support for his minions. Seems fine to me. And when the fire rings come in he kills them all himself too.

It’s not really a horde during the end. Raiders and fanatics come individually, one by one from all sides which actually makes it a lot more fun and skill based, since you have to react to enemies from all sides, blocking, dodging and killing while covering your and your teammates backs. One person can kite the boss just fine, and the boss can switch targets which gives the previous kiter room to breath and recouperate.

If you’re the last standing person during the 3rd phase then yeah, you’re done for (unless you have invisibility). I don’t really see a problem with this. But if there’s 2 or 3 people left then you can comfortably go and revive just as the fire rings detonate, and both of you can make it out before another charges up.

This is the only one that I can agree with. He shouldn’t really send you flying like that, especially since he can ping-pong you between himself and the fire rings, and you can take damage from his minions while in the air too. Either remove the stagger effect or make it dodgeable.

Why not? Why do all the levels have to be perfectly consistent with each other? Why not have an actual challenging boss fight with more intricate boss mechanics? Why does Enchanters Lair have to be just as easy/hard as Into the Nest or Screaming Bell? Honestly this might be a hot take, but I don’t care what player expectations are, to the point that I think it’s good that certain maps break player expectations.

I don’t care. If people are really that desperate for an easier vault or level, then just let them. My opinion, but I personally couldn’t care less if people suicide because they get this map. Let them. And again, I think you’re overestimating the boss fight. If you stick together and do well, then the boss will die, you don’t even need any specialized boss killers (not in Legend at least, and even in Cataclysm I won with Bolt BW being our best monster DPS).


I’m just gonna add this here:

Okay, let’s start with the biggest problem of this post and also some part of the community. Speaking of the poison of this sentence:

Absolutely no. There is no reason such an arbitary rule should exist. And if people insist on it existing already then kill it off as merciless as possible. No good can ever come from such a rule, especially not for a weak reason like:

If you limit the whole spectrum of over 20 maps to be different mushs of brown in terms of difficulty then

  • you rob the developers and level designer of creative freedom as they have to ensure every time that the event has to be “balanced” which is an awkward term to begin with in a game which has 15 different classes and a multitude of different events. In the long run this will lead to less new and creative events because they are outside of player expectation and might end to hard without chances to “balance” them. The result will be developers sticking to “proven” events making the overall game losing uniqueness
  • you rob the player of the chance to grow as player because they know that they just have to add some whine on the forum and the challenge will be removed. This is not helpful. People skipping maps because they are to hard is 100 % a mentality issue and has nothing to do with level/event design or development.

It would be far better to re-condition playership and make them understand and accept that different levels have different difficulty and this being a good thing. In general there are different ways this could be achieved without changing the actual levels or events (the following list is an “or” function):

  • Get completely rid of quickplay bonus and re-condition people to chose their games through lobby browser so they can chose their map difficulty
  • Let quickplay bonus change with the map. If you play an easy map you get the 0.5 like now, if you play a hard map you get up to 2 or 3, if you top the top the chest bar you will get a second chest.
  • The whole chest bar gets a multiplier depending on the level
  • Harder maps give two chests like Deeds

All of this would give players a more “appropriate” risk/reward and re-condition them to easily accept different map difficulties. But again, this is not even necessary because life/world/gaming doesn’t work like this. I have harder and easier days on work but you know what? I still get the same pay independent from this (ignoring special circumstances like overtime etc …). There is no reason that all levels should be mushed to succumb to arbitary rules.

To the actual encounter:

The flies themselves are not that problematic, even if you split in pairs of twos, you usually can counter them quite easy. The only scenarion where they became is problematic is if you get the CW wave because they block moving quite more then a normal horde or maulers. If there has to be any change to this I would opt for

But phase 1 and 2 are really not something which needs adressal. At all.

Phase 3 is more difficulty and looking out for each other becomes more troublesome. But still even there major changes are not necessary. The enemies spawning are only horde and can provide health, it also makes the presence of crowd controllers more viable instead of the scenario in all other boss fights where it would be a better choice to bring more dps. So don’t touch the horde. The only problem arises from Nurgloth’s attack which makes you flying and the fire ring doing the same. If there should be a change here, then it should be for the fire ring:

  • Let the fire ring “warning” be shown longer for one or even two seconds. This gives enough time to move safely out of the zone. Nobody is using the ring in that phase to kill mobs, so there is no loss.
  • Also, make the fire ring also a bit less frequent
  • Reduce the knockback of Nurgloth

But they fight can stay as it is. It is better just to re-condition the community not to succumb to idiotic arbitary rules.


These are the kind of changes I can actually get behind, tbh.
The flies can be extremely bs, taking damage freeing you from the flies is practically essential, because if you get hit by them as last man standing, you just die. I’ve had that happen to me and it’s just terrible.

Worse, I had the flies disable me as last man standing while respawning someone, while in stealth.
The flies disabled me while in stealth.
I was incredibly pissed. And I had a full bar of health, and it meant nothing because I just got nuked while disabled and there was nothing I could do. Taking damage should end the disabling. I completely agree with that.

Other than that, I agree that there should be a bit more pause in the waves of enemies that come in the third phase, but only that. A small pause to allow some breathing room, there should still be endless waves of enemies.


this line is pointless. tell me then what is the point of modded realm? u dont grow ur skill in QP u go in modded realm

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I think the fight is completely fine until the final phase where he starts to melee while also doing his ring-burst with endless spawns.

Literally had a case where i was tanking him with my back to a pillar for like 5 minutes straight but all my teammates were busy clearing adds so no one was hitting the boss.

And i still had a pile of mobs ontop my shield along with the boss.

We were stuck like that until someone snuck a hit in and the boss switched aggro leading into mayhem which resulted in us dying.

I have 4 possible changes any of which i think might make it manageable.

  1. Remove his knockback on melee attacks.
  2. Remove orange rings when he is in the final phase
  3. Nerf the rings in the third phase by removing their knockback&revive interruption and reduce activation speed but up the damage in turn.

If this is done then he can even have those random patterns back i think which would make the fight spicy but not overly so.

  1. Remove or notably reduce the minion spawns.

These are what i think would be good but regardless of what actually gets through i truly believe that something has to be done for now it is bad.


There is your false premise, Difficulty settings exist to make the challenge uniform.

Honest opinion… I do not agree with most of the complaints about Nurgloth.

Does he have too much health or unfair damage reductions?
No. I wish other lords had that too. The fact that some lords can be brought down in less than 5 seconds is something that still baffles me.

Are the homing flies a problem?
No. The flies can be killed even with melee. It helps a lot if you have one player who purely focusses on killing the flies, and one player defending that player from getting hit in the back by adds.

Are there too many adds?
I don’t have issues with the amount of adds as long as the game doesn’t thow too many elites/specials in it. Which is not the case here.

Is the final phase an issue?
This is the one thing I agree with. The issue is the combination of the quick exploding fire rings and the huge knockback of his scythe. This gives the following problems:

  • Getting knocked all the way on the side of the area causes you to take unavoidable damage from the fire rings. Which can be half of your health on cata. Even if you have the time of getting out of the ring your path might get blocked by the adds.

  • When you’re the last man standing there it’s almost impossible to get teammates up (unless you have invisibility) because they spawn in the ring area and the boss doesn’t stop hitting you for a single moment.

Possible solutions:

  • More time before the fire ring explodes in the third phase.
  • Remove the knockback attack or reduce it’s frequency.

The point of the modded realm is obviously mods O.o These can range from stuff which is violating WHF Lore to stuff which changes gameplay elements in a stark way or even minor changes which just don’t add to developer vision. More challenge can be one of this but is by no means the primary goal of it.

Point of quickplay if it stays like this is to give diversity and a bonus for loot in exchange for him being “unprepared” for what is to come. As such he has to rise up to the challenge if a map comes which he isn’t best suited for.
Or if it is specific elements of a map that they deem as “too hard”. Let the element in the grow and give players the chance to grow. Nor remove it.

So this line is perfectly fine and on point.

Is the fight more difficult than other Lord fights, and the map harder than other quickplay maps? Yes, no doubt.

Is it an iron rule that all maps should be of comparable difficulty? I think there’s some debate here. On one hand, when you quickplay to farm chests, or quickplay on the highest difficulty that you can just handle, such a difficulty spike is frustrating. Can’t deny that. But: As a Cata player, this map was amazing fun! I didn’t mind it is more difficult than other maps. In fact, I liked that about this one! The fight was properly epic. I know that not everybody feels that way though. And I’m at the point where loot doesn’t really matter much anymore, so win or lose isn’t a big difference for me anymore. But for many other people that’s not true, and it would be selfish of me to have them subject to something that’s fun to me but frustrating to them.

So here we have a problem: The disparity in difficulty is at the same time a negative to some, while it’s a positive for others. How to solve this? Make it easier, and I’m bummed. Keep it difficult, and other people get shafted. So here’s my suggestion: Why not nerf the fight (some good suggestions here by the way!) to be in line with other Lord fights on Legend and lower difficulties ONLY. But keep it as-is on Cata. Then people quickplaying are treated fairly, while people looking for an epic fight can still have that. Everybody happy!

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ofc and improve ur skills so when u say ROB the players well yes ur line makes no sense

Are you saying that official realm should only ever be for casual players? Why shouldn’t the official realm have difficult fights and scenarios as well? The game is meant to be challenging, after all, it’s not exactly a casual game.


Kinda join the events issues of this topic :

Yeah the difficulty ramp up is way too high, I’ve had a couple of fairly good QP teams breeze through the start of the map with no incaps but consistently get wiped in the 3rd phase of the boss were he starts chasing you. Balance is off for sure, and revives are nearly impossible.


Totally agree. It’s important to remember that regardless how much it has to be hard, you can take some unfair and unavoidable damage… wich is always a bad thing.

About the problems to be berserker and a spike of difficulty, I already talked on the other thread. It’s another bad thing.

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Well honestly i mostly disagree with the op here. I’ve personally now done the map like 5 times on cata and only wiped once (the very first time i did it).
The flier mechanic is absolutely arbitrary if you just position properly where you can see the flys coming from a far away (not right under the boss). You can even use the pillars to totally nullify the effect. The boss also seems to be targeting only 1 player throughout this phase of the fight which makes avoiding it even easier. (Not 100% sold on that but just feels like it)

The only 2 parts i kind of agree with the encounter is that i feel like he has slightly too much health for my liking (could just be cata thing) and the fact that you can easily get pushed to the edges in the final phase because of the knock-back effect. It either needs to be totally removed or the attack needs to be something you can dodge. (its still currently totally possible to avoid 100% of the knock back if your team is on point with clear but that will be rare in pug games for a while)


Haven’t beaten him in Cata for now (I’ve only tried him 3 times tho).
Well our team was a bit quirky. We didn’t have any thought behind composition and teamplay and harmony was what you can usually expect from a bundle of strangers.

A bit disappointing how little my Greataxe does to him… :frowning:
Maybe a bit too tanky for my taste.
The huge ton of Maulers which usually troubles us can be dealt with better team composition, I think.

How is this supposed to help anyone? You’re just putting out on the table that you don’t care about anyone else other than how you want things to be.

People like yourself, Adelion, Smegmar, making callous comments is unproductive. Firstly, the general goal should be to reach as broad of an audience as possible. That’s just business. Secondly, it’s important to address problematic humps like this. Do you remember Convocation of Decay before they nerfed it? It was absolutely ridiculous. Goodluck ever doing the challenge for it on Cataclysm back then. Yet there were several people selfishly advocating it stay the same to boost their ego. That was despite them knowing it was overtuned.

So what does reaching a broad audience mean in this sense? Quickplay is the most played game mode and always has been. So I elaborated on why it’s important to have consistency through levels; specifically those in the quickplay pool.

Misconstruing the points to reinforce elitism helps no one. The worse the game performs, the likelier chance we won’t see this game persist. No one cares about how good or bad you are. People care about enjoying themselves on a game they paid for.

Comments like:

are perfect examples of people who completely glossed over any of the points made. It’s illogical to switch from a higher difficulty to a lower one for a single map because that map is overtuned somewhere. For maps in a quickplay pool, having relative difficulty is important. Otherwise if players constantly go from playing a really easy map, to an okay map, to a ridiculous map, all in the same quickplay pool with the same difficulty, it means one or more maps are poorly designed and need to be adjusted.

Calling other people’s words poison or belittling others doesn’t make you right.

Balance is a part of any game’s life. Some things need tuning up. Other needs tuning down. Others just need quality of life adjustments or rearranging.

Quickplay is an important part of this game. It helps get people in a game fast and efficiently. No hassle. Asking for people to be reconditioned for such a reason is illogical because the primary measure of difficulty should be the Difficulty Settings. Recruit, Veteran, Champion, Legend, Cataclysm. Adding unnecessary hassle by making each map too easy or too hard with some in between merely creates frustration and begs the question of: Why do difficulty settings even exist?

No one wants to have to constantly adjust difficulty settings depending on the map they play. They want to hit one button, be in a game, and get to the action. You don’t need to worry about robbing developers of creative freedom because this is merely part of their job. Balancing the game and achieving a fun and unique experience. They’ve done it before and they’ll do it again. Adjusting this map is no different. Obviously having a challenge is important, but it should be within reason for each given parameter(such as difficulty or being in a quickplay pool).