Now I highly doubt if FS will implement this talent in the Veteran’s tree (knowing how much they love them) but hopefully it gets taken in advice.
The talent name and effects are as follow;
No Pain, No Glory
“You get a 50% damage reduction but you cannot have any toughness. 20% of all toughness gained is converted into health.”
There are various things to clarify about it,
-You still have toughness and any max increments to it (curious, talents, etc) but its always set to 0.
-Any toughness you gain is converted into health in a 1/5 ratio. For example; if you have a maximum toughness of 140 points and you use a combat ability which fully restores your toughness it will heal you back 28 points of hp (140 / 5 = 28). This means that the more toughness you have, the greater the regeneration.
-Taking half the usual damage means you can frontline in a pinch, but eventually you must retreat to recover.
So; you just want your “favourite” character to be better?
Pain sacrifice = a zealot thing by outline. You might want it on the vet, but that’s not in keeping with the game. Saying zealots are fine is just like me saying Veterans are fine. Which they are, btw.
“I’d like my veteran to be less squishy” is not a balanced argument. Saying you want to be less squishy while simultaneously saying you’d like to exchange one damage bar for another just makes it sound like you die a lot. Be more detailed. Why is toughness no good for you? Why do you feel like extra health would be?
You’ve not addressed how health<>toughness balancing would work when you’ve got 50% grimoire corruption for example. Corruption doesn’t affect toughness; but it does health. So how do you want your mechanic to work when you’ve 50% corruption?
Even ignoring the fact that there’s not really a role this talent would fill outside of seemingly being a crutch, I think the bigger problem here is that having no toughness would suck a lot.
Lots of negative effects are nullified by toughness, including but not limited to:
Slowdown from enemy ranged hits
Knockback from shooters and gunners
A significant portion of melee damage
Corruption damage from pox hounds
Any and all damage from poxbursters (only on gold toughness, which you cannot have with this talent)
Any and all damage from snipers (only on gold toughness)
Self-damage from venting Plasma Gun
All in all, it seems like this talent trades mobility and surviving large amounts of burst damage in exchange for semi-invulnerability, assuming you can keep Veteran’s toughness leech talents up - but you won’t be able to keep them up if you’re getting hit, which completely nullifies the point of this talent. It just makes your character objectively worse by not having a critical defensive layer the game is designed around.
Just adding - we’re not piling on you here mate. All ideas are subjectively welcome. I personally just think it needs a bit of fleshing out, with the “problem” you would like addressing being the principle objective.
I don’t think many players see the vet as squishy tbh, so just outlining what that looks like for you might be a good start.
Indeed! Veteran is a very durable class, at least in regards to ranged combat, and can freely contest with whole squadrons of gunners and win easily. They have the highest base toughness of any class and lots of ways to keep that toughness up lets them take a bunch of ranged hits without losing health.
Confirmed Kill is one of the most powerful talents in the game because there’s no limit to the amount of stacks you can get, and if you’re doing your job of dropping specials and elites from afar with your powerful ranged tools, you’re gonna have at least 3 stacks most of the time in a heated firefight, meaning you’re now effectively immune to ranged damage and can keep everything shut down.
It gets more crazy when you consider the Born Leader talent - maybe also consider taking Exhilarating Takedown as well, and now you’re a constant source of lots of toughness for your team to give them an edge without having to rely on melee kills or passive regen. Plus all this toughness damage reduction from the tree, and you’re able to take a LOT of hits.
If you have all this, and you’re still taking enough damage to go down constantly, then there’s something wrong with your gameplay - analyze what you are doing, what you could be doing better, and where to place yourself. Veteran is a solid melee frontliner and doesn’t necessarily need to be shooting all the time, and really you shouldn’t! Shoot too much and now you’re out of ammo to kill things at long range with.
I never said that I had a “favourite” character, this is pretty much a suggestion in order to make veterans less squishy than they already are, but everybody sees it as they want.
This is irrelevant
There are various attacks that pierce through toughness entirely (you know which ones) and to sum up, all attacks have multipliers to even cut through it with ease, which latter case does not apply to health.
If you know how resistances and immunities work, you will see that damage reduction affects how much corruption you suffer from attacks aswell grims, corruption is not percentage sided (lucky us). Furthermore, corruption is very easy to get rid of, if you have the talent improved supplies, you can use a healpack and clean yourself, or a zealot with the Beacon of Purity. Anything else you have doubts?
I’ll ignore this. Theming isn’t part of my thoughts here.
Every attack that ignores toughness can be nullified through gold toughness or an easy-to-time dodge. Crusher overheads, snipers, poxbursters, it’s all survivable with enough skill. You know how the joke with ULTRAKILL is that you can parry anything? In this game you can dodge anything.
Grimoires constantly apply corruption until the target value is reached, curio perks just reduce that target value. You cannot cure grimoire corruption permanently, it just comes back. Grimoires are a good way to gimp a party using Field Improvisation because they’ll just eat up the health pack and not actually recover any health.
While bolstered toughness (yellow bar) can block attacks that are meant to deal health damage, they still nonetheless break down your toughness and leave you exposed for further hits. Reading your previous answer, I confess not putting much thought in stuns and slowdowns without toughness, but if needed the talent itself could grant some or total immunity to them.
Pretty much the reason why nobody picks grims at all infact. The rewards are not worth enough, neither are the risks.
Aye, but I think that’s a fair price to pay for not avoiding the attack. Not taking health damage at all is a really powerful thing for gold toughness to do - plus, it’s still pretty easy to refill your toughness after taking the hit. I frequently use overtoughness shout whenever I’m in a tight spot and a poxburster or sniper is about to hit me, always saves my bacon and I don’t take much health damage after the fact.
An unfortunate truth. If only there were some kind of previous game Fatshark developed where the optional collectibles were worth picking up due to improving level rewards.
I really do think the idea of exchanging toughness for a bunch of health tanking is a really fun idea, though, and would fit splendidly on some kind of Martyrdom Zealot, like @Jonboy mentioned. They already have Thy Wrath be Swift to remove stuns from the equation when they don’t have any toughness.
Also, something we forgot to mention, but how would toughness damage reduction work? Would it just not be a thing?
Unless these agent modifiers were to affect both resources I suppose tdr would not be a thing for this talent. Same thing for the talents Iron Will and Close Order Drill.
Yea trial and error is all I can say.
This could be a thing, like the Stoic perk deck from Payday 2, switching armor over health
That is fair enough, and I apologize that came across that way. My comment wasn’t actually meant to be salty but I can see that might be read that way! Genuinely, that wasn’t meant as a dig.
~
I’m interested how this idea develops. I’m not sure you can just say “Warhammer40k lore be damned, here’s what I want”, because ultimately that’s the game. Zealots are the pain>power avatars, not vets.
That said, I’m still not really sure what issue you’re trying to solve with this. Is it that with enough health packs you’re immortal? I have to admit I don’t get it. If you get hit, you should take damage. No? Why the vet, specifically?
I don’t main-avatar the veteran - though I am at about level 190 with it. I don’t think I’ve ever thought; gee, this guy is squishy. Maybe with the Psyker? But the vet has plenty of base tankiness, and particularly with the new tree (patch 13) special ability , I’d argue, where you’ve got +50 overshield on a 30second rolling basis on top of all the other mechanics. You’re SUPPOSED to take chip damage over the level btw; just manage it 'til you get to the next check point med terminal; if you’re a really good player then fine, you don’t, but that top up is built in to 3 points in every level.
Hand on heart; it does feel a bit like an inverse Martyrdom on the zealot?
Every character has a profession and they do what they are best at. I don’t want to modify the rules of any franchise (since they don’t belong to me) but there’s always the freedom to bring something fresh from the oven. If they are fine with that I suppose
In my previous reply with @CobaltNinja, I had mentioned that Veterans could switch their toughness to enhance their health and with enough health you should survive hits that would normally have downed you, enemy overheads basically
I don’t get what you’re trying to say with “enough health packs you’re immortal” since they practically run out and can’t keep you at top form forever.
Lastly, why the Vet out of the three? Well I just want to see them more of a berserker type of profession that can survive continuous amounts of damage instead of having to stay in the backlines using ranged weaponry. They have the talents to be efficient at close quarter combat but they lack survivability.
I also don’t main much the veteran, since I don’t find fun having to use guns to reliably take down foes that I can simply duel over with melees. The thing is that the stamina mechanic is awful, compared on how it works in Vermintide 2, dodging or jumping halts the regen and thus leave you very limited in options. I think a lot of people have already said something regarding to it.
And its okay if you tank a hit that would have normally dealt corruption or health damage with bolstered toughness, there’s no much mystery behind it, unless you question Fatshark’s logic.
What I think they’re trying to say is that this kind of talent would intrude on the role the Zealot is trying to fill. Each class has a general archetype, and then specific niches within that archetype based on their grenade/aura/active setup.
A berzerking-type veteran would intrude a little bit on the role of left tree Zealot, the one about running directly into ranged enemies’ faces so they have to stop shooting. The Zealot’s tree is overall better suited to that kind of role.
You absolutely can still play an aggressive Veteran, though. My natural playstyle tends to push forward if possible. You don’t have to play Vet as a backliner - really, they work well in any position.
I see the Ogryn as the most invading class, having almost a mix of all the trees, but there’s always a catch.
Ogryn also has that very same role with his left tree. So its not very original at this point.
You can, but not in the same way as other professions, your toughness regeneration is very limited, you have to kill to ensure get some toughness back, pray that you can last long enough to trigger voice of command or infiltrate, and most talents are proc’ed on weakspots which can be complicated to achieve in mid horde or being targeted by a monstrosity
But yeah, at the end of the day while Borderlands 2 Gunslinger + The Rough Rider is amusing, I’m not sure how well it works over here. The interaction between toughness and health is to integral to the game as a whole, and dropping toughness creates a whole host of issues that even limited health regen doesn’t really fix. And assuming they ARE fixed and you just permanently have all the toughness benefits all the time but with health, then that’s just kinda silly and removes a balance nod from veteran entirely.
I say, improve ones dodge game, and something as highly specific as this will not feel nearly as needed.
Genuinely, that wasn’t meant as a dig.
