Toughness Values

Right now Veteran, the best class in the game by a country mile, has the highest toughness value of 200.

Everyone else has 100. Veteran also has very good toughness regeneration feats at level 5.

Why is the ranged specialist class more resilient than Zealot, while also outputting more damage and having comparable or even better horde clear thanks to the power sword?

I propose that Veteran’s toughness be reduced to 150, Ogryn’s toughness bumped to 150, and Zealot’s bumped to 200.

Additionally bleed through damage should not down players. This will enable zealot to play at 1hp .

Id also remove toughness regen from coherency so a zealot/ogryn splitting from their team to keep a horde back and create space for an objective arent completely reliant on toughness from feats.

Psyker having 100 toughness should be balanced by the Psyker being very powerful. Which it isnt, but that is a discussion for another topic.

Please share your thoughts!

1 Like

Honestly, I don’t think that’s the problem. I think the biggest issue right now is that toughness just sucks at absorbing damage, and the only reason vets are so tanky is because of their regen talents. Toughness has a “shield gate”, meaning if you have any amount of toughness left over (even as little as 1), you will basically “block” the damage from the next attack (minus chip damage from melee attacks). There’s some weird calculation for chip damage based on health percentage, but either way, the problem is consistency, not amount. If we had better ways of producing our toughness generation, it wouldn’t be an issue.

Amount does matter because toughness increasing curios and toughness regen abilities are all based off your maximum toughness instead of being flat values.

With the appropriate feat, vet can regen 60% of his toughness on casting volley fire. By default that is 120 toughness. Since they nerfed zealot, Zealot only restores 50% instead of 100% of his toughness. Casting his skill returns 50 toughness.

See the problem?

Veteran has a lvl5 feat to restore toughness while far away from enemies, and Zealot has one to regen while near enemies. Their % values are the same, but because of base toughness zealot has halved effectiveness in comparison.

The base toughness values absolutely do matter. Unless they change toughness regen to be flat instead of % based max toughness is super important.

1 Like

If you go back and read what I said, I was talking more about the consistency of toughness uptime than the values. While % values will obviously better affect a larger pool, I was saying that I don’t think the size of the pool is what the problem is. That, and when one of your traits is to just regen while away from enemies, then it makes complete sense as to why the vet would be “more survivable”, because they’re doing their best to stay away from enemies to get that regen bonus.

I read what you said, and I disagreed. The base toughness values are the most important thing to iron out, before anything else. Veteran having twice the toughness over everyone else makes him much tankier than everyone else.

Except that toughness breaks near-immediately when you’re in a proper fight, get touched by fire, or if you take sustained ranged fire, thus making health the more important of the two stats considering if that reaches zero, you’re dead. A higher toughness value won’t mean much at the current amount of damage reduction it provides. If anything they need to remove chip damage and make 1 point of toughness the equivalent of 3/4s of a point of health, or even 1:1, then the values currently listed would make more sense. There are a lot bigger issues to work out that aren’t just “make number bigger”, because that won’t solve the core issues of the mechanic as it stands.

I think your health getting damage through toughness is a pretty bad mechanic, should probably remove that tbh. Just make toughness work like armour in payday 2 where the enemies can’t damage your health directly without breaking your armour first (unless they’re a sniper).

1 Like

Yeah, that could work too. Either way, the chip damage is the biggest issue right now.

Toughness breaks twice as fast in gunfights if tou have half of it. Aka everyone else but veteran.

Toughness also soaks more melee chip damage the more of it you have. Toughness is easier to repair than HP. Toughness is super duper super important.

Im not sure why youre trying to say toughness shouldnt be increased on the other classes and health is more important. Toughness also doesnt chip into health from gunfire.

Veteran is literally more tanky than any other class because he has a massive pool of constantly regenerating THP.

It’s not as simple as “Make number bigger” it is balancing the numbers so that classes feel better to play. Veteran, the ranged class takes much more melee damage than Ogryn and Zealot can over the course of a match. That is literally backwards.

I stand by my post and completely disagree with you.

Toughness is less important because it’s easy to regenerate, and your health pool, when damaged, is gone permanently until you get healing, and that’s not even bringing corruption into the equation. And I’m pointing out the fundamental flaw of chip damage as that is one of the prevailing issues with the toughness system right now. I was also pointing out that you saying Veteran is tankier than the other classes comes from the fact that a veteran prefers to fight at range and not in melee, so it tends to not deal with chip damage as much as the other classes.

My example of gunfire against the toughness was on how fast it breaks, I never said that gunfire caused chip damage.

Don’t mistake me pointing these issues out as me saying that toughness is not an important aspect of the game. I’m simply saying that compared to a finite resource, it is less important, even if only by just a bit. In fact, one of the most important skills in the -Tide games is dodging. So the more you’re able to dodge and avoid chip damage, the more you can utilize your toughness for ranged damage soaking. Which is important! But you need to keep in mind which class you are playing and why that class is tankier in one way or another. Do keep in mind that the other classes have a higher HP pool in exchange for their lower toughness. Except Psyker, because squishy mage or something.

Toughness protects your health pool and veteran loses less of it. It’s not even just because he’s “ranged”.

The amount of chip you take is proportional to how much toughness you have. You take much more chip if you have less toughness. And when your toughness breaks, your health takes full damage. This is even more important vs gunfire that doesnt chip at all.

Toughness is more important than health up until the point health reaches 0.

Id lkle toughness to also prevent you from being downed. Health stays at 1 until toughness is broken. Toughness also doesnt get corrupted which makes it even better!

Bro, toughness matters a TON. Veteran’s toughness value being higher than Zealot and Ogryn makes 0 sense. Ogryn is huge and is always getting shot at, Zealot rushes in and inevitably will be shot. Veteran sits in the back and is the tankiest by a country mile. My buddy ate a crusher overhead with veteran and it didnt even break his toughness.

More toughness > more hp

I…yeah, I agree? I said as much in the last post. I just don’t think it matter more than health considering when you’re in the fray, because if you run out of toughness and keep getting hit, then you need toughness regeneration, not more toughness. A larger pool will mean nothing if you continue to get hit.

Larger pool = more regen.

5% per second with 100 is 5/sec

With 200, 10/sec.

Also has more room to soak hits and continue to regen which is less hp damage over time, even melee chip will be greatly reduced.

Afaik melee chip is based off of your total toughness remaining. With all of it being done to hp at 0 toughness.

You need the size and the regen especially if it isnt flat regen and is instead based off your pool of toughness.

See, it makes more sense when you put it into numbers like that.

But even so, I don’t think the larger pools are going to be as helpful as you think with toughness in its current state. As I stated before, it just does not have the same value as health. A single hit on toughness can do upwards of half of the bar (30-50), when the attack itself may only take away 15-20HP (this is just an example). The values are skewed, and until toughness gets tweaked to be similar to health, it’s not going to be as effective on melee classes.

It will be effective on melee classes. The damage you take to health is directly proportional to toughness % remaining. Minimum 10% bleed through.

At 50% toughness, half will bleed through to hp. At 90% toughness, 10% will.
At 100% toughness, 10% will.

Toughness also prevents you from being stunned by ranged fire which is very important when closing the gap to deal with heretical gunners in melee combat.

Toughness is actually even more important on Zealot and Ogryn for this reason, along with all the others ive listed. Toughness is way more important than HP.

Except that melee chip damage is a terrible mechanic that is actively detrimental to a zealot who is encouraged to play at low HP values for an increase to damage. Dying because of chip damage through your fake temp-HP is a terrible thing to deal with, and it actively discourages you to play zealot the way it was designed.

Also, the stun-removal happens with even a single point of toughness, but yes, toughness is good for ranged attacks.

That is an entirely different discussion to have. In my opinion bleed through is fine. The only issue is it being able to down you. If it didn’t down you an Zealot had higher toughness he would be pretty much perfect.

Fits thematically too. Unshakeable faith in the emperor leads to high toughness. Taking melee damage lowers his HP which triggers his passive. When he finally hits 0hp after his toughness breaks he becomes invulnerable allowing his toughness to regen by being near enemies without fear of dying.

The Zealot low hp melee playstyle would actually work with just these two changes.

Increased toughness to 200, from 100.
Melee bleedthrough damage cannot kill you.

Bear in mind this also means the toughness returned on using his career skill is returned to 100 as well, and the regeneration from being near enemies doubled.

I’ll have to hard disagree on the bleedthrough. I and many others do not like this mechanic at all, as even if you were able to maintain a level of toughness through a fight, a single hit means you are punished no matter what. This isn’t a good feeling at all, and it simply causes issues, even if it is good flavoring.

However, we can keep going back and forth on this discussion forever at this point. I’ve made my statements and you’ve made yours, but until something is actually stated by a dev or an update is released, it doesn’t matter too much.

Also, please do note, I wouldn’t mind a number increase. I just don’t think it will solve the issues with toughness as a mechanic, hence my statement earlier of “make number bigger” not mattering.

Either way we do agree that bleedthrough needs a change. I wouldn’t miss it if it was removed but at the very least it shouldnt kill players.

You have a nice day bro.

1 Like

Surprisingly because of bleed-through damage, veteran isn’t the best…
If you take 50 points of toughness but 10 still go through your shield, you are still in a worst spot than the zealot.

This is why I am starting to suspect fatshark of having introduced bleed-through on purpose…
And yes I hate it. But I hate taking 200+points of sniper damage even more so.