Because it’s literally the only thing you get for doing completing missions (well, you get some shillings now too I guess …), and taking tomes and grims for a higher risk with higher rewards is like … the most prominent gameplay element. Seriously, tomes and grims are an ever-present part of every single map! That’s why everyone talks about it all the time, it’s a constantly reinforced aspect of the game.
If this is not what the game is about why were chests before Lohner’s was introduced almost the only thing given to the player for completing challenges and maps?
As for off-topic, no I don’t agree. I think people suiciding because the boss is too hard is a SYMPTOM of the overarching problem of loot. Is the issue, at heart, not that people want it to be easier so they can more easily farm reds?
The fact that you don’t care about loot is completely inconsequential to the playerbase at large. When I introduced my friends to these games, both VT1 and VT2, there was a continuous problem of having to keep grinding for better loot.
And no, you just simply can not blame the players for reaching this conclusion. The players are never to blame when this is the natural train of thought by just organically playing the damn game. We like to pretend that so much of the gameplay loop doesn’t revolve around the loot grind, but it’s simply not the case, intentional or not.
I’m not blaming the players, I’m just saying that if that’s what they want to do, then let them. I don’t care myself.
What loot is there to get even? What is there to get, what is there to achieve in terms of loot?
And what better loot would that be? You reach power level 300 items in like 60 hours. Oranges are all you need. What else is there to get? Reds?
Because that’s the only thing the game COULD give them. Otherwise you’d be completing challenges for absolutely no reason, this way at least the daily quests gave something, even if it’s completely pointless to be honest.
I agree with you that loot is not the prime motivator, and that (challenging) gameplay is. I also think that nerfing challenging maps down just because they’re harder than others creates blandness and is not fun for a lot of us as well.
But you can’t be that much without empathy? Some people are already playing at the highest difficulty they can handle at this moment, and the difficulty spike for them must be frustrating. Some people don’t have all the gear yet or they like collecting red illusions, and wiping at the end of a map feels like a waste for them, especially because the difference in reward between a win and a loss is so big. Their complaints about the difficulty spike this map poses is understandable and legit, just as much as our opinion that the difficulty of this map is enjoyable to us and we’d be sad to see it nerfed is valid.
The solution that would please everybody is to nerf the map down to the same difficulty as other maps for Legend and lower only. That way, players like us are happy to still have our challenge if we want, while farmers and people progressing through the difficulties are spared frustration. Everybody wins. Can’t see anybody disagreeing with that.
I agree, I just personally don’t feel like it needs to be nerfed by any significant amount even for the average Legend players cause I think that the difficulty of the boss is a bit overblown. Overall though, it’s just not my ‘fight’ so to speak. I won’t either for or against it. I agree it sucks that some people feel the need to suicide at the start of the map, but I think that’s an overreaction from them. If those players get enough support for change, then so be it, but it’s not for me to judge or decide (well, nothing really is)
Ok guys, it’s time for a reboot.
Also and mainly for my fault, this thread is changed from Nurgloth thread to an Huntsman one.
Let’s do some clarity (last time I talk about Huntsman here).
I never said that Bow Huntsman is useless;
I never said that bosses killer is the only Huntsman’s niche;
I meant that Huntsman’s damage is “average” but still too low to be a bosses killer… wich is, even if not the entire one, a good part of his niche. So, stealing it, it’s not a good thing.
I know someone doesn’t agree. Everyone has his opinion. Let’s stop it here and let’s start talking about Nurgloth.
Berserker tier can be truly discriminatory towards certain weapons/careers;
A berserker Lord (but this a larger problem, like the linked thread says) can be confusing for those players (the majority) that don’t use mods, forums, etc etc;
Berserker tier makes Nurgloth much much much harder than the other maps… someone could like it, but it’s a balance problem;
Roleplay is damaged. Maybe it’s a subjective point, but if I set my career to kill huge targets (I feel natural to put bosses and Lords under the same tier), or simply if I imagine myself as bosses slayer, it’s pretty sad if I can’t use the 100% of my build vs Lords just because some players don’t want to see a Lord killed in few second… when, as said, to be a Lords killer doesn’t mean that you have to one-hit kill them and there are other ways to make Lords tougher;
the game is more “RNG” if I can’t focus myself as bosses killer but I can just pray to meet the boss with the correct tier. Afterall if I play as specials killer I can deal with every special. If I play as crowd control I can deal with every horde.
Chage it doesn’t add more variety… just more RNG. It’s an extremism, I know, but it’s like you were playing 2h Hammer Slayer and suddenly an horde could become immune to your stagger because… How boring! Finally an horde that isn’t trivialized by a crowd control career. Into a competitive game I must have the control.
If some players love berserker Nurgloth it’s only because that tier makes the Lord tough… BUT, like some players show, a berserker Lord can bring some problems (read above).
Since there are thousand ways to make Lords tougher (IF Fatshark really has to do it), we can just pick another way and make everyone happy.
I wrote “IF Fatshark really has to do it” because, make the Lords tougher, it’s not a change without consequences:
and if will they be too hard and boring without a bosses killer career?
moreover Lords maps are just normal maps… maps chosen randomly from a pool of maps with the same reward. Maps must be balanced each other. We can’t have another SKIPPERgate (and already people are quitting from Nurgloth).
The underlaying problem, is the very existance of “boss killer careers”. That creates an unsolvable inabilty to balance stuff. You either balance the fight around those careers and it’s too crazy when you didn’t bring them, or you balance the fight around the pther careers and it becomes too easy when they’re around.
Instead of bickering about changing Nurgloth so Huntsman can fulfill his supposed boss killer role, there rather shouldn’t be boss killers at the level that currently exist anymore, and this, and many other, problems are solved. You can still have classes that trade DPS for defense or such, but the disparity in effect on mosters / bosses just shouldn’t be that big.
Nurgloth’s damage resistances somehow created this exact phenomenom, at least for his bossfight, so I’m entirely content with leaving him as-is.
Which is also what I’ve been saying since the beginning.
The boss-killers like Shade & BH being so effective against bosses is honestly fine when thinking of the mini bosses (Rat ogre, Stormfiend, Bile Troll, Chaos Spawn, Minotaur), because just like Waystalker can press F to quickly deal with specials, you could think of Shade & BH as pressing F to quickly deal with a miniboss.
It just becomes ridiculous with Lords, because Lords are supposed to be the finale of the map, and pressing F to quickly deal with the finale of the map is when things get stupid, fast.
So if all Lords could be like Nurgloth, where being a boss-killer doesn’t immediately end the fight, where the DPS can come from all members of the party so that you don’t need a specific composition to beat a specific map, then it’d be perfect.
While I personally feel like the boss fight is a great example of how all bosses should be, your suggestion of reducing the difficulty for only recruit to legend has reminded me of an interesting concept. When discussing good examples of difficulty levels, killing floor is often mentioned as difficulty increasing done right as new enemy attack patterns are unlocked as you reach higher difficulties.
Nurgloth seems like a step towards this concept and it would have been interesting to see this happen. To give an example of him unlocking abilities as the difficulty increased:
Recruit: he can no longer send out bug swarms and the final phase loses both adds spawning and aoe attack. Might be worth considering throwing in an occasional CW into the mix but nothing over the top.
Veteran: bring back the bugs and further tweak the adds spawn rates
Legend: bring back either adds or aoe attack in phase 3.
Cata: bring back both adds and aoe attack.
As it’s been mentioned, fixing the “boss killers” is a better way of addressing the triviality of most bosses, but it would be good to get opinions on the idea of adding attacks to increase difficulty.
For easier clarification:
You mean lords should be treated exclusively. Not like, for example, monster-type.
Have their own category or no category and thus shouldn’t be vulnerable to one shot builds.
If that’s the case, I support that.
Bosses should be tricky and should take time. Oneshot solutions are boring.
I would even go as far and make instant killing Minibosses impossible.
Make them easier for certain classes to kill is OK. But because of a certain build minibosses should never be trivial.
I don’t know if that’s possible in Cata, but definetly in Legend.
Removing him from the quickplay list would indeed prevent difficulty spikes for quickplay, but since I made that suggestion I’ve realized that would be needlessly restricting content. That’s why my new suggested solution would be to nerf the difficulty for every difficulty except for Cata. That way the challenge is still there for those who want it, but it doesn’t cause frustration for quickplayers anymore.
I guess because in the past huntsman was probably the number 1 cheese to delete every boss in the game(Just google old huntsman 1 shot videos if you have no idea) and ever since those days there has been this idea floating around that he should be able to pretty much delete everything.
I’m personally still waiting for the possibility to allow players to maybe set 2-3 maps they don’t want to quickplay into. Would be easy way to allow people to slight effect what kind of difficulty they want out from their maps while not doing any major changes to the maps itself.
But this an extremism. For example Huntsman inflicts a good damage vs the other Lords. It can fulfill his niche of bosses killer without one-hit kill them.
The problem your exposed it’s the consequence of the current balance (who may like it or not, but this is off topic), NOT the consequence of the bosses killer role.
Removing that role you are just reducing the variety and the player’s power of choice (someone could say “it’s a necessary sacrifice” but, as written, there are other ways to reach the same goal).
Moreover, as written, Nurgloth must not be berserker not only for Huntsman and bosses killer role speech… I wrote many other reasons.
Honestly I haven’t problems seeing a Shade that destroyes a Lord, it’s her job (just PERSONAL OPINION)… but IF Fatshark has to change this situation, a very simple solution would be add a cap. For example: with one hit you can cut off at most the 15% of the boss’ hp.
p.s moreover, those careers that are considered bosses killers, can fulfill that role because they are just elites killers… it would be very hard reducing their power vs bosses but NOT vs elites.
… there would be more incredible spikes of difficulty into QP maps.
Moreover Nurgloth can inflict some unavoidable damage. Wich is always a bad thing.
But at this point you should rework them too. They should not be able to spawn in tight places. They should slow down the number of specials spawned…
But Cata deserves a balance too.
It’s NOT my case. I think that Huntsman has the bosses killer role too because I see his talents, his style, his weapons…
And anyway I play since d1. At the start Huntsman has been incredibly over power. Then Fatshark nerfed him and he became balanced. Then there has been a bugged patch that made him over power once again. When Fatshark nerfed him again, they have been too heavy: they overnerfed him.
There were a lot of players that wanted bring him at the phase after the first nerf… when he was balanced and when none complained him. It never happened.
So Huntsman has a story as “very bosses killer” (in addition to the “OP phases”, I mean).
I would love more of that. But by that point they should really put that chest back at the start of a map so I can change my loadout to fit the map I got into with Quick Play.
I don’t see anyone complaining that Shade infiltrate damage against Nurgloth is abysmal when she’s stronger against bosses than most careers albeit not as much as pre-wom. Capping damage done in a single hit affects some careers (shade, WS PS and BH DS) but not the strongest nurgloth killer, bluntsman which does consistent multi hit damage.
Unavoidable damage is not something that works in a game like this compared to an MMORPG because there’s not a consistent/reliable way to recover health given the situation. Temp health might slightly help but getting bursted down without counter play (knockback into mobs/fire) means incohesive mechanics and that should be looked at.