Nerf arbiter

[Rvl]

I mean, I never asked you to retort my post either, but here you were with your cheeky link, as if I don’t know what power creep is? Funny how it works only one way.

So reverted nerfs of weapons/abilities and stuff like reworked Bolt Pistol is not enough for you to see which point I’m trying to make? How is it not “verifiable”, again?

making your own assumptions about what people are saying or doing

Such as? Which “assumptions” did I make which are not truthful? I’m only saying what I observed both here and in-game.

Are you saying 99% of people don’t use Duelling Sword/PG/Frags on their Vets in Havoc 40 as the “most commonly accepted best Vet build”? Are you saying people didn’t defend stuff like smoke grenades or marksman’s keystone here on forums? Are you saying people didn’t ask for every core feature of Arbites to be nerfed?

What is the problem with my post, outside of me having a different opinion on the balance?

[Ralendil]

@Rvl

Some people on this forum are hyper fixated on the balance things of the game, to them this game just doesn’t exist outside of lining up a bunch of enemies and getting a big score on the scoreboard. I personally enjoy the game beyond that

Tbh, I feel the game unbalanced
But PG was never balanced, DS never nerfed, Relic blade is surely somewhat a little too strong, the psykers deal too much damages compared with others (surely one build…), ogryn melee is better than the zealot…
Now everybody ask that arbiters are nerfed… But my feeling is that Fatshark does not want to balance the game anymore.
So, I play it less and less… especially without the promised solo game mode.

But, I repeat it… this thread is full of exageration. No, Arbites are not super heroes… sorry. Several talents (and one particular weapon) need to be nerfed, but the truth is that a lot of things in the game should be tuned down.

[Rvl]

Meta is pointless in this game, because Darktide is a PVE game about hopping on and playing 5 different loadouts each match to experience different types of gameplay, anyone not playing the game like that and just spamming one broken loadout or one class is just robbing themselves out of fun.

For some of the meta weapons to change in a meaningful way it would require complete overhauls. Even if you nerf Inferno or Trauma staff, they will still be better staves due to how they interract with enemy density of a horde shooter. Same thing with every armor piercing weapon, they are just intrinsically better than melees with low armor rend like Heavy Sword or Catachan, the only way to balance is to fine tune each weapon so that every weapon can be useful against certain enemies and weak against others, but we just don’t have enough unique enemy types and behaviours for Fatshark to achieve that realistically, and with the game torn between three underdeveloped gamemodes.

There will never be a true balance for a game with 20+ unique weapons which all compete between each other, there’s a reason best FPS games could only do around 8 weapons at most, and even they were balanced by LEVEL DESIGN by placing certain ammo types or enemies… I repeat, LEVEL DESIGN is what balanced those games, not WEAPON BALANCING by itself…

There’s no observable reality where Catachan will be a good weapon in this game anymore, due to how it becomes weaker the more (armored) enemies attack you at once, and with the damage it deals even on crit parry. No matter how skilled you are, this weapon is a flavour pick for people to induldge into Catachan Jungle Fighter parry fantasy. Hellbore less so, but even Hellbore is borderline unfit for the gameplay of Darktide with all the tunnel visioning into a scope and enemies spawning behind you with barely any notion, while all its “awful”-ness is offset by how much damage it does and by mere existance of ExeStance.

In Dark Souls you can get one sword, but it will never be bis no matter how broken you make it, because there will be at least a couple certain enemies or bosses that exploit certain things about this weapon and your playstyle. And that’s why souls are one of the best designed games, because the variety is not enforced, it’s encouraged by different types of challenges.

Same with Helldivers which has 3 enemy factions with different strengths and weaknesses which create 3 separate metas for each faction, thus creating more VARIETY.

Darktide doesn’t encourage players to experiment enough and doesn’t present a good variety of challenges, and it should be the prime focus of the devs, not the cyclical meta nerfs that will later down the line will be reverted anyways like bolter, flamer etc.

[GMG_Pie]

Vet is a victim of his skill tree having no direction and being poorly designed, which is evidenced by patch 13 Vet not even having any keystones. Also Vet is not remotely close to a bad class. Hell, smoke grenade spam is used by a bunch of people clearing Havoc 40. Worst class by comparison does not mean bad.

The “topic of the day” changes because every update keeps escalating player power. Initial Havoc meta was spamming gold toughness as the literal only threat was getting shot to death by supremely over-tuned shooters. Then Havoc 2.0 nerfed shooters and players got Perilous Combustion buff, Ogryn, and Arbites. 3 out of 4 non-Vet classes are better at ranged spam than the soldier character. All they need to do is just lower some of the numbers on the over performers and that’s it. Stuff like Arbites or DS4 would still be played the same exact way if their damage output gets nerfed.

[Harridas]

@Rvl

making your own assumptions about what people are saying or doing

Such as? Which “assumptions” did I make which are not truthful? I’m only saying what I observed both here and in-game.

Okay

@Rvl

You want to turn them into another Vet 2.0 where the class loses its identity and gets railroaded into a few specific playstyles.

@Rvl

People here just don’t play anything outside Darktide/Vermintide, they think Darktide is the game that has invented the concept of meta builds which are stronger on average.

@Rvl

Nerfing stuff like DS is just a short-term solution that will bring the next best weapon in line, aka the knife or rashad, or something else, so that people here on the forums can beat a new horse to death.

@Rvl

Most people here think they know anything about the balance in this game, when in fact, they know nothing, because they’re stuck in their own bubble of pre-conceived views on how the game needs to be played.

@Rvl

The problem is that forum talk about balance is superficial, and is mostly driven by popular collective opinions, rather than desire to achieve actual balance. Whatever is the “topic of day” is being regurtitated non-stop. And many people here, despite their expertise, still lack nuance in understanding the classes they want to nerf (my Vet PG example). Yesterdays “Golden Toughness spammer” is todays “Vets needs help т_т”. Most people here never cared when people asked for smoke grenade buffs or marksman keystone, both severely underused for a reason.

@Rvl

If you want to hate meta-chasers, you should probably hate forum players instead, because they are the ones who optimized the fun out of the game and absolutely ridiculed people for not playing the game “the correct way”, while crucifying anyone who brings stuff like wound curios, despite it never being all that serious.

By the way, do you know about Frontier Z and the Magnet Spike?

[Rvl]

Cringe, so now somehow quoting my entire post is your “gotcha” moment, despite how some of these takes are absolutely 100% valid, especially with how dramatic people are on the forums about the balance in this game?

You want to turn them into another Vet 2.0 where the class loses its identity and gets railroaded into a few specific playstyles.

And many people here, despite their expertise, still lack nuance in understanding the classes they want to nerf (my Vet PG example).

Yes, these takes are surely factually incorrect. Get a grip and maybe play outside of your premade in Havoc, so you can see that 90% of quickplay Vets in both auric and havoc fall under that problem by the way the class is balanced right now.

Most people still think Frag Grenades are best in Havoc, despite every new modifier severely nerfing them, on top of overhyping Plasma Gun which is a second fiddle to Bolter in Havoc

Nerfing stuff like DS is just a short-term solution that will bring the next best weapon in line, aka the knife or rashad, or something else, so that people here on the forums can beat a new horse to death.

Most people here think they know anything about the balance in this game, when in fact, they know nothing, because they’re stuck in their own bubble of pre-conceived views on how the game needs to be played.

Exactly what’s been happening since the release of this game, with multiple examples provided by me in the earlier post, on top of things like people here defending awful early version of Bolt Pistol only for the weapon to get a buff one patch later, but “it’s a high-skill weapon”, right?

Yes, clearly, I’m so wrong here. I came up with that on the spot. Never happened.

***

Anyways, I’m done with this stupidity

I guess you just want to sit here with your forum buddies and upvote each others correct posts, claiming any different opinion is an incorrect one, wallowing in your confirmation bias of fake “evidences” and “perfect” knowledge of both the game and game design as whole

[Rvl]

Legends tell that if a weapon or an ability is brought into Havoc, which is a team effort, it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a viable, perfectly designed weapon or an ability. I’ve won 40 games with people who had Chainaxe, and I’ve won with people using smoke grenades, but it doesn’t make these tools good, it just makes them barely passable and shows the team as a whole was good enough AND the run lucky enough not to feature any BS moments.

Some time ago I saw the run of some content creator where they had 2 Ogryns and a Vet with smoke grenades, and yeah… I guess it’s a playstyle in the game! Of course, 2 Ogryns being one of the best team comps in Havoc does help, but I guess smoke grenades did something there too, despite by chosing them Vet is trading like 30% of their total firepower for a weaker version of Psykers shield that doesn’t give full protection against channeling gunners or any additional buffs.

But even if you say they have a decent usage in havoc– when people would rather hide from the gunners and let them stack, instead of actually killing them– they are so beyond useless in auric that sliding into gunners to stop them from shooting is more safe and consistent than trying to perfectly place the smoke so that it covers every angle and your team still has vision of the encroaching enemies.

Stuff like Arbites or DS4 would still be played the same exact way if their damage output gets nerfed.

And how exactly does that address the underlying problem of weapon variety, which everyone here seems to allude to?

So DS4 will take 2 hits more to kill all the same enemies, which will put it at the same level of perfomance as knife probably, and this solves what exactly?

This pushes back the conversation a year back, when it was “nerf knife & ds more”.

In Havoc all Vets will use power sword mk6 as the next best melee (that’s already arguably better for horde clear than ds4, especially against the orange modifier), the majority of zealots will now use knife or DS4 just for crit fishing, and many psykers already prefer using force swords over DS4, because they want their force push and enhanced block.

***

I thought nerfing Arbites goes way beyond their DPS, is it not? People like Mr. Harridas clearly want to see the dog get nerfed, which is the main attraction of the class. All of his vids are focused on dog builds, and dog’s usefulness comes from its ability to disable or stunlock the most dangerous enemies in the game with almost no cooldown, rather than pure DPS, most of which comes from blitz usage. Even if the dog killed slightly less specials or dealt less damage, the same challenge runs of dog only builds would still be possible. Unless of course you just completely butcher the main thing about the class, turning the dog into a “1 free special kill every 20 seconds” type of ability.

[Harridas]

@Rvl

All of his vids are focused on dog builds

No.

And another instance of you making things up.

[Rvl]

Damn, you got me. Totally forgot to check your entire youtube history and instead only accounted for 2 videos which you yourself posted in the recent discussions when discussing the class.

It’s cool how you can ignore the entire context of my posts and just rebuke takes that you personally dislike, but you expect me to remember that you posted that one video which didn’t feature a dog build, while other videos which you used to prove your point had exactly them.

It’s not like the previous discussion of Arbites in KhorneDog’s thread were wholly revolving around the dog being the strongest thing they have, especially when there’s more than one in the same lobby, and the dog being the only thing that made your “evidence” possible in the first place.

For someone so focused on facts and you seem to have trouble keeping up with the discussion.

[GMG_Pie]

I have heard anecdotes of players on the Asia server demanding smoke grenade players so it must be meta somewhere. Getting shot is one of the few dangers of Havoc so I can see it.

Lowering damage output would solve the issue of Auric and Havoc getting bulldozed by a single player. Weapon variety is bad because stuff like chain weapons are badly designed. They feel like clubs unless you press the button that forces you to commit to a single attack. They still eat your stamina bar if you dodge out of activated attacks because the balance philosophy of this game is all over the place. I imagine several people had a hand in it and most of them are gone at this point. We could splash some of that power around a bit. Chain weapons, Achlys Combat Axe, and Infantry Lasguns suffer the most from being designed for a different game or just badly designed in general and there is no excuse for them to go this long without changes.

Also a nerf to uncanny would hit ds4 and knife hey look at that bad design vanquished two birds one stone more variety

Dog has way way too much going for it at this point. Stunlocks, aoe damage, afk a boss to death, clear elite hordes on its own, get out of poxhound mutie chaos spawn free card; the dog is wack and who knows what to target first on it.

@Rvl

This pushes back the conversation a year back

Power Creep - TV Tropes

Two year anniversary of Patch 13 is coming up real soon.

[Index]

@Rvl

anyone not playing the game like that

bold statement, since i don’t feel “robbed”

i don’t give a flying fk about numbers, talents etc.

got my char, got my loadout and this is quake with 40k theme, period.

all this fluff around how to kill a.i enemies in different ways, only one i care about is “my way” and once I found that playstyle I try to improve upon it instead of hopping between dozen semi efficient stuff for the sake of “diversity “

strange how after almost 32 years now I can still enjoy the same doom maps like its my first playthrough.

granted on a new-ish gzdoom source port but without any external additions besides vertical aim.

same for darktide, I like the setting i like the style and i play for personal improvement.

and that means for me “don’t fear the man that practised a thousand kicks, fear the man that practised one kick a thousand times”.

besides people whining about the class can suck my fat ogryn , played the big man since beta when he was considered , took him through early havoc 1.0 when he still was considered , play a non meta full health build that carries the day so far everytime and thats what matters to me.

him now overbuffed is a thing to address no doubt but the hell I won’t change my playstyle cause of the “flavor of the day”.

been enjoying him for 2+ years and will play the same way in 2 years+ as I’ll play doom quake and duke3d since decades.

how am I “robbed” of anything?

[Rvl]

You misinterpret my post. I was talking about meta builds, referring to people who play one class with one broken build, not Ogryn specifically. The whole point is to say, if people can only play Arbites or DS4 loadout for any reason, it’s their loss.

If you don’t feel robbed then good for you. Though any game with multiple selectable characters shines more when you play different characters so that you can appreciate and understand gameplay of each class on a deeper level. In multiplayer games you play different characters to understand their weaknesses and how they’re gonna play against you, in PVE games it helps to understand how classes interract and how they can help each other.

In Darktide you can see the difference between Ogryns and Zealots who play Vet/Psyker, and those who don’t. Those who don’t will never turn around to check on their teammates or push enemies away from them. Unless of course Ogryn likes to switch to ranged weapon every 2 minutes, because nobody is killing that Dreg Gunner on the balcony that pins the entire team.

Same goes for Psyker who never plays melee characters. They place the shield dome ONLY on top of themselves, and never on top of the frontliners who are holding the horde ahead of them. Good Psykers who play other classes will use the shield to help the team progress and not camp the same spot for ages.

[Rvl]

@GMG_Pie

Lowering damage output would solve the issue of Auric and Havoc getting bulldozed by a single player.

Which of those Havoc games that I had are “bulldozed by a single player”? Even in auric it only happens when there’s 3 noobs, more often than not it’s at least 2 decent players, if not more.

[GMG_Pie]

I love that one dude calling me out for ignoring the content of posts and then all of my posts get ignored.

Not sure what posting some screenshots would have to do with my point about damage being too high. A couple nights ago I decided to try bubble purg for giggles and hit an over 2 mil damage game on my least played class. I saw a 3 mil damage game from a macroing psyker and that was pretty messed up too.

Like is it really too much to ask for less aoe damage and for melee elite enemies to be allowed to exist in current year?

[Pirx]

That’s correct, one has to know what issues other classes have and react to accordingly

[Index]

@Rvl

helps to understand how classes interract

oh I did dissect the limits of each character in order to gauge what and whatnot to expect of its abilities in a certain situation.

though abilities of the character and those of a player are two different things

played em as well to a certain extend to field test my observations

(though never psyker cause fk that lame-ass harry potter chicken leg stuff, anything below 30 inch biceps aint manly, period)

but the only “herzblut” goes to one character and one only cause muscle memory, playstyle an’ all I firmly believe in rather be the master of one instead the jack of all trades.

and so far I’ve seen a nice linear improvement from the early days of damnation—>HISTG—>maelstrom—>havoc 40

plus on the one hand expecting randoms to fk up and on the other respecting the time of those who don’t, the former needs a carry while the later deserves professional courtesy of keeping up/along or whatever the pace is set to.

that I can only guarantee on the one char I know inside out

[Rvl]

@GMG_Pie

I’m not ignoring it.

I’m just baffled by your statement of how people solo breeze through Havoc. This couldn’t be more far from truth in random H40 lobbies that I play. One has to wonder who you’re playing with and how you’re consistently getting top horde clear, top elite kills, top specials/disablers and top boss damage all at the same time, while your team is doing nothing and you also win?

I mean, once in a blue moon you get a game like that where you have all orange stats, but claiming that one player did all of it on their own? Let’s be real here for a second…

The games where I “bulldoze through Havoc” are the games which I lose. Because that means everyone else just shoots in the air.

Also a nerf to uncanny would hit ds4 and knife hey look at that bad design vanquished two birds one stone more variety

While that would seemingly fix some of the issues, crit is almost the same as rending in this game. Meaning this only hurts Veteran running DS4 in the end, who doesn’t have access to easy crits which penetrate armor like Zealot and to a lesser extent Scrier’s Gaze Psyker. Zealot with double crit blessings will keep killing the same enemies they did previously with uncanny, except now it’s slightly less consistent.

So we want to knife to be just a speedrunning tool by cutting down on its lethality? Knife has poor horde clear, without uncanny it won’t have damage against armored elites, what good is it gonna be for then? A tool to reposition and maybe duel bosses if we’re generous, due to good dodges? Ah, and also just being a defensive option of Zealot for more crits on bleeding enemies to activate damage reduction from the talents and cooldown reduction for Chorus.

In Havoc knife already loses some points of viability, because you don’t dive enemies there the same way you do in normal games. People certainly don’t use it for damage there if they want to deal damage.

Chain weapons, Achlys Combat Axe, and Infantry Lasguns suffer the most from being designed for a different game or just badly designed in general and there is no excuse for them to go this long without changes.

I’ll be happy if any of those weapons get sensible changes, I’m not arguing that.

They still eat your stamina bar if you dodge out of activated attacks because the balance philosophy of this game is all over the place.

People on the forums defended Eviscerator’s specials, saying the weapon is in a good place, and people should “just dodge out of it, if you can’t finish the special”. I mean… Yes? Feels like an oversight that it spends stamina this way?

[GMG_Pie]

I think the points I was trying to make about the bulldozing thing are getting muddled so I’ll just share my experience: Auric is unplayable and Havoc 40 pubs are all I play and winrates are very high. I’ll be exicted to fight a wall of crushers and oops the rumbler ogryn is behind me nevermind. Aoe damage is just lame and allows for one person to completely neuter every difficulty spike.

It’s only a handful of builds that need tuning down. Like if I decide to play dog cop, I will make the rest of my team irrelevant as I have a ton of true solo experience and am now playing a wackass class.

The whole point with rebalancing is to move power around and lower it in places. Like knife can get better horde clear in exchange for lowering sprint speed and single target damage. As it stands, Arbites and DS4 make no compromises and are able to do everything. Do we really need the cop to not only be the tankiest class in the game but also have access to extreme melee and ranged damage? Arbites Maul basically has Uncanny Strike built into it and is a second DS4. Increased weapon variety is a good thing but how can you achieve that when the top options invalidate the others at every niche they could possibly try and have?

Like there are so many issue with this game and flawed design to the core with basically no hope in sight for even a bandaid. Seeing one of my favorite games ever get worse with every patch is demoralizing.

[Svyat020]

You said what has to be said

[Svyat020]

@Rvl

Anyways, I’m done with this stupidity

I guess you just want to sit here with your forum buddies and upvote each others correct posts, claiming any different opinion is an incorrect one, wallowing in your confirmation bias of fake “evidences” and “perfect” knowledge of both the game and game design as whole

Welcome to the club, buddy