Necklace property rebalancing ideas and feedback

Its seems Fatshark is busy with technical issues but I want to provide feedback and discussion for when they do get back to rebalancing.


So in my experience everyone pretty much uses 2 of 3 necklace properties: health + stamina or block cost reduction. The damage reductions options are too low to be useful compared to health (for effective hp) and the block angle is not as directly numerically impactful as block cost reduction or stamina.

The goal of this post is to think about how to bring more property options into the meta.

Current Necklace property options:

  • 1-2 Stam
  • 10-30% Block cost reduction
  • 10-30% Block/push angle
  • 10-20% Health
  • 5-10% Dmg reduction vs Chaos
  • 5-10% Dmg reduction vs Skaven
  • 5-10% Dmg reduction vs Area

My main concern is the last 4 options here.

Note: all numbers are suggestions and open to debate

Proposed rebalanced properties:

  • 5-10% Health or flat +10-20 hp (so squishy careers still get good value)
  • 10-20% Dmg reduction vs Chaos
  • 10-20% Dmg reduction vs Skaven
  • 15-30% Dmg reduction vs Area

The guiding principle I used is: the more widely applicable the property, the lower its value should be, and visa versa.

One could stop here, just changing these numbers and that would be meaningful but we could also add more. I suggest adding dmg reduction options in line with the power vs ____ options of weapons and charms:

  • 10-20% Dmg reduction vs Infantry (applies to marauders and below thus not raiders/maulers or specials)
  • 15-30% Dmg reduction vs Armor
  • 20-40% Dmg reduction vs Berserkers
  • 20-40% Dmg reduction vs Monsters

The point of this method is to be clear about what the dmg reduction applys to.

Another way to achieve that is to mirror the scoreboard entries somewhat:

  • 10-20% Dmg reduction vs Infantry (same as above)
  • 15-30% Dmg reduction vs Elites
  • 20-40% Dmg reduction vs Specials
  • 20-40% Dmg reduction vs Monsters

As far as the block/push angle: I suggest changing/adding one or multiple of the following:

  • 45-90 deg block angle (so you get good value on weapons that need it)
  • 15-30% Push strength (akin to and stackable with the opportunist trait)
  • 15-30% Push speed (possibly applies to pushstab attack speed as well)

Or go for something bold and add:

  • 10-20% Dodge distance
  • 1-2 Effective dodge count

I know these last two are out there cause they mess with mobility balance, but I feel they could be good options and should be considered especially as one would have to sacrifice hp or block tankiness.

In conclusion most of the necklace properties are overshadowed and I feel that with even just some numerical rebalancing more options could be realistically viable.

7 Likes

I definitely agree that health percentage should be nerfed back. It is, in every situation, better than damage reduction. Ten percent health would be fine; it still brings squishies out of the zone of being one-shot from full health by an overhead. Helps with the tankiness issues of big chonky classes a lot. Even just making it a flat 20 health would be better, I think.

I wouldn’t want to break up the damage reduction into all those extra categories . . . If anything, just a 10% flat damage reduction would be fine - if they also set a cap for damage reduction. That way some characters can’t get even tankier than they already are; just have a note “your character already has maximum damage reduction”. It could be tweaked by career or raised for ults like Taunt.

I like the effective dodge count idea, because that’s at least something you’d want to change up between weapons. I don’t think extra dodge distance is a good idea, though. Handmaiden will just dodge straight to the escape portal if she gets much more dodge range.

Not specifically necklace-related, but on the subject of properties; a thought I’ve had is giving diminishing returns to stats like Crit. Players can still stack it, but it starts giving less and less. Just have a tooltip to note it to players, and a screen to show their actual stats . . .

3 Likes

I don’t think just changing the numbers will do much, though replacing +HP% with +HP would balance that stat across a range of classes.

Like you said, the effects of ‘damage reduction vs’ are too narrow when the alternatives are universally useful. You could have a 50% damage reduction vs Skaven, but it would still be inferior to +2 stam because +2 stam works when you’re fighting Chaos, and Chaos enemies make up half of everything you fight. Vs infantry/armour/elite/monster would be the same, I think.

Dear god, no. Not unless dodge count/range was nerfed across the board first.

The way to make defensive attributes (and careers, and skills, and talents, and weapons - what you’re talking about isn’t just about one set of bad stat types for one type of gear) attractive is to nerf the mobility meta. People need a reason to invest in defense and right now there isn’t one.

I’d also be concerned about adding more stat options while the rerolling system works the way it does. It can already take a LONG time to roll the stats you want, and this will increase when you add more different stats you can roll in.

2 Likes

We need several things rebalanced. Like: nerf to swift slaying (from 20 to 10% attack speed increase,or some less round number, like 12% - it would still be good enough for many classes but not overwhelimngly good) so crit chance is not the best thing ever for ech and every melee fighter in game, new melee traits activated on headshot or on charged attack, cure resistance rebalance - f.e. everyone can get to “+33% curse resist” health value, but everything over “no curse resist” level becomes temp HP, so curse resist still makes sense, but you can be just fine if you get your THP generation right.

1 Like

Dude the op crit procing traits have been rebalanced and parry is a very strong trait given you understand how to use it.
Gimping that down to 10% would be a joke. Why even bother with it when you can just swap the crit chances with it and use a much better trait on your weapon instead? Given you think 10% attack speed is still even worth it at that point.

1 Like

On the topic
I do think that there is quite the issue with many properties, the combinations possible on items as well as traits.

  • There are a lot of uninteresting ones like:
    Headshots regenerate stamina of team

  • Good ideas completely mutilated:
    Saving an ally rewards temp hp, Trait grants stronger pushes

  • Outshining the alternatives in almost all circumstances:
    33% Curse resist, 20% health

  • Extreme combination bonus:
    Crit proccing traits (especially with the Elf’s melee)

1 Like

i like what you’re saying, but i feel like nothing should be nerfed, just other stuff should be buffed to equalize things out more and make more viable options than just “everyone always runs the same thing because it’s basically BIS”? Sidegrades, not upgrades Dawri. That’s what i like.

2 Likes

Everything is already viable. If you want to play an IB with a hammer and shield and build to be an unkillable crowd control monster, you can do that and succeed at any difficulty. It’s just not as easy or reliable as the current dominant strategy of maximising mobility and raw killing power.

Power creep is something I think we should be avoiding. There are already a lot of players out there who think Legend is too easy.

3 Likes

I haven’t had to block and overhead strike in weeks. Parry is only useful when you intentionally decide to go blocking for fun - in other words, it’s just absolutely useless. 10% attack speed means 10% more offensive output, and often it’s worth way more than 10% more damage, since many weapons 1-shot their intended targets anyway and additional damage is sikply overkill (most horde scenarios). Crit builds right now are simply mandatory due to swift slaying being several times better than everything else, and parry has similiar level of utility as heroic intervention, that is - almost none.
Resourceful combatannt is a part of a Kerilion’s waystalker build, but generally that’s it, on almost any other character it’s just better to strike 20% faster. Having one trait Nd 1 property (crit chance) vastly outperforming everything else really limits people’s choice. Just like current +20% HP on necklace and +33% curse resist on trinket.

1 Like

So your point is that you think it should be nerfed because of the lack of alternatives?
I agree that there is a lack in interesting traits but I do not think that Swift Slaying is too strong because of it’s 20%. I might agree that there is a reasonable point to shorten the duration or something else but one has to keep in mind that it has to stay better than plain 10% attack speed otherwise you can just swap to that.

You compare Parry to Heroic intervention here really?
So what do you actually want?
You say it’s build diversity but your solution will make Swift Slaying obsolete and unpickable.

10% attack speed is still an awesome boost to performance, just not overwhelmingly so. The game is way too easy already, and SS builds are further trivialising the game by making players kill stuff 20% faster. Shorter duration will just further increase the need to stack crit chance, right now 15% is kind of enough, with lower duration one will either have to add more crit if he can, switch to faster weapons or use those with higher base crit chance.
If we want to keep the ridiculous 20% output increase, we would have to buff other traits to equally mind-blowing levels.
Parry is on the same level as heroic intervention, actually its worse, cause I often pick people up during hordes, and I never feel the need for a free block anyway, even if overhead breaks my block, I can just dodge away, and with SS I’m dispatching the danger much, much faster, which means I’m super-rarely in dangerous situations - the game got so easy that I’m pulling every patrol I encounter. And there again - due to swift slaying I’m not getting overwhelmed, so I don’t need parry anyway, and when I need it, it’s often too late to do anything and the team is getting wiped anyway.
Parry was good before dodge got buffed through the roof. With 2h axe as dorf I could handle 3 CWs and some marauders/fanatic attacking me in confined spaces and survive, to pick the team up. Nowadays I would just smash them to bits with 1h axe and not even break a sweat. So what’s the point of parry?

YES BUT AGAIN you need to be better than that or you can get it with gear guaranteed 100% of the time and you get a free trait slot as well.

Yes

Well you just dismissed one alternative way to balance it. Why are you fixed on the idea that only reducing the % down will be able to balance it?

Also I don’t think 1/5 attack speed is on “mind-blowing level” but the ability to keep this trait up 100% of the time seems to me like the unintended part. Remember there was berserk in V1 that only had a chance to proc on kill. We could move the trigger to critical kills for example if that is desirable and people that do not like random attack speed bonuses are free to spec into permanent attack speed. OR we could do it like with Resourceful Combatant meaning SS could not be refreshed while it is active.

But to be honest I rater see the other traits, properties and the combinations interesting before we take a deeper look at if SS is too strong or if something else will overperform at that point.

Sure buddy. moving on…

I see you have 2 problems here:
1h axe being basically better than 2h axe in almost all situations and the dodge time window change that made the game easy mode therefore SS needs a nerf?

In case you object: Don’t compare a weapon that is immobile with a mobile weapon to justify parry is garbage it’s silly.

1 Like

Parry is quite useful on a 2h weapon, as, incidentally, is opportunist (push strenght). I enjoy big weapons a lot, and I couldn’t think of using my greathammer as IB without it.
I agree that traits need balancing, but I really don’t get all the “game’s too easy” complaints. A particular choice is too strong? Don’t use it. You don’t have to use 1h weapons just cause it’s the meta choice of the moment. Try something else, experiment, expecially if a choice being too easy is making you feel unconfortable with the game.
For what it matters, I haven’t been liking WHC since the patch (odd isn’t it?) then I realized what I wasn’t enjoying was having SS on it (the meta choice). As soon as I switched back to resourceful combatant I had lots of fun with it again. And my faster cooldown means my playstyle is better for the team to boot.

1 Like

Parry is a waste of space. And on your attack speed uninformed ramblings - yes, you can get constant 10% bonus, but with seift slaying that would be 20%. Start thinking, attack speed is extremely important and SS even at 10% level would still be way way way better than heroic intervention and parry and “just” better than off balance and the other blocking trait.
Once again - we either nerf SS or we buff all traits to some absolutely ridiculous game breaking values. I guess by uour logic the latter is easier and better than the former.
And BTW on heavy weapons parry is not great either cause they are awfully slow to block anyway. I have made a few posts how parry should be replaced on 2h weapons with a trait of similiar role (buffing block) but working differently. As long as its not happening, using 2h axe with parry over 1h axe with SS is just handicapping yourself, have fun doing this, but don’t spread misinformation on usefulness of such builds.

I’m not going to intentionally gimp my performance for the sake of making the game artificially more difficult. I’m going to use what’s effective and fun. And v. Often effective is fun, because it does not frustrate the end user or his companions.
I cohld be using the worst in-game weapons and still be decent, cause even the worst weapons are not THAT bad. But I see no point, especially since only low effort is required to finally make every weapon great again. Too bad even low effort is too much effort apparently, and with people arguing that 10% attack speed is not a lot ( :smiley: ), devs are only reinforced in their thinking that “all is fine”.

I agree with the OP’s thoughts that the Necklace Properties are way out of balance. Compared to the alternatives, +20% Health is way too strong, and the DR options too weak, reducing our effective choices a lot. Stamina, Block Cost Reduction and Push/Block Angle can be useful, but not on every setup, and not really that useful either - and as such, I often don’t really care what my second Property is, as long as one is Health.

I’m not quite sure what should be done to fix things, though. Just tweaking the numbers would likely be a good start, at least, and might be enough, at least if Health is brought down a bit and the DRs raised. I certainly don’t think the DRs should be divided further, and the block-relevant Properties might need tweaking too.

While it’s somewhat irrelevant to the topic at hand, others also brought up Swift Slaying and other weapon Traits too, and I’ll bring up my opinion on that one again: I think tying the proc chances of SS, RC and others to crits has proved to be a bad idea, and separating those could easily enhance game balance. In theory, letting several (mutually exclusive) Traits to proc from crits sounds nice, as it allows manipulating those chances and choosing how much to invest. In practice, though, crits are a strong force by themselves, already worth stacking the chances, and SS and other proccing with them only adds to that strength - so much that even on Careers and weapons with low base, stacking crit chance and Attack Speed is probably a better build than any other - even more so now that the Dodge enhancements have reduced Parry’s value (though not turned it useless imo, unlike what Krator claims; that’s a matter of playstyle and skill), and a few other Traits (even if they’re still crit-dependent) have been tweaked to near-uselessness. And that’s not even touching the Traits that have suffered from the start. Separating SS and other Traits’ proc chances from crits would allow using crit chance as a separate balancing mechanism, and allow balancing those Traits separately from each other, including their proc chances, thus denying the apparent need to stack all Attack Speed and Crit chance on (nearly) every piece of equipment.

1 Like

Could you please tell me, how is appreciating (I guess that was a point) parry a matter of skill? With dodge you can pretty much always be out of harm’s way, and if you aren’t, you’ve made a miastake unknowingly and parry won’t help you much, if somehow blocking is possible (ypu’re aware you’re going to get hit) 1 is usually enough and you don’t need parry for this. If you need more than 1 block, it often means you’re getting chain hit, and in such case usually you either push through or die on the spot since with parry you can’t hold block anyway and only for short duration enemy strikes are going to cost nothing.
Oh and with parry you’re facing more enemies, enemies you would be able to kill easily if only you’ve chosen swift slaying.

And yes, traits getting procced by headshots, charged attacks, timed blocks (its ridiculous that only parry allows you to benefit from good block timing, which outside of parrh is generally high risk 0 reward) etc. are IMO the way to go.
A few rebalancing changes to trinket, necklace and melee weapon traits and I guess we would have a much more fun experience.

At its simplest, because my dodge game isn’t really on point, particularly dodging specific attacks, and my “panic reaction” is blocking. Dodging requires a bit more forethought and multiple keypresses, compared to panic-blocking. Makes fighting Bosses pretty annoying, btw, with their fast block-penetrating attacks…

But that’s besides the point, as the thread is about Necklace Properties, not weapon Traits.

3 Likes

I support all of OPs suggestions.
Good call.
HP is basically mandatory on necklaces.
Something needs to break it.

Don’t nerf health or stamina, buff everything else. If you just nerf the current meta people will figure out a new meta within minutes and just use that instead. None one uses anything but health + stamina because the other properties are universally considered to be useless or only apply to one or two specific builds like 100% BCR Battle Wizard.

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