Moonfire Bow nerf was overkill

Warhammer: Vermintide 2 Vermintide 2 - Feedback
#21

Then we consider the above translates into “you get to kill two or possibly three specials for free every 17-20 seconds”. This in a difficulty where heaps of them can spawn within a critical distance to boot.

The weapon is serviceable if playing melee and really wanting to not give a damn about ranged as much as possible but that´d be about it. It can not be buffed without overlapping even harder with longbow and it cant be nerfed least it lose any use.

'tis not a good state to be in at all, especially not after a years time of waiting for changes.

#22

MFB generates 1.5 energy/s. A partial charge is 6 energy, so you get enough energy for 1 partial charge every 4 seconds. With 2SBS, this is 1 special every 8 seconds, or 2 per 16. You can add 1s to account for the 0.2s delay in charging after a shot.

I don’t headshot nearly enough with longbow to sustain it a lot with CS, and Crit Chance is only 10% (outside of HM Power from Pain), Scrounger won’t be giving much either. Given that, I’ll be killing more specials/killing specials more frequently with MFB than Longbow.

The bow services fine on Cata when I used it, and I wasn’t actively avoiding killing specials. Even with the high special rate there, it is manageable unless you’re the only special sniper. Being able to pop off bodyshots to kill specials when things are frequent rather than trying to focus on a headshot with longbow also has use.

On Cata Twitch or Cata Deeds with +Specials, yes, I agree it is too little ammo to work. I’m not sure what people want without facing the overlap problem you’ve mentioned. That is a fundamental issue with ammo-less weapons. I guess what they could do is simply treat like another staff/drakefire weapon, and make it vent-able, so people with high thp gen can shoot more, and then maybe tweak damage values for BPs if need be.

#23

Just want to point out that everything you mention about longbows weaknesses as compared to moonbow can be rectified with skill. So, ironically, if you don’t find longbow better than moonbow according to your reasoning, it’s because you can’t headshot with longbow consistently, which is actually a skill issue.

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#24

I must be missing something if there’s supposed to be a reason to use moonbow if you’re this paragon of elves landing every headshot. This is exactly where the trade off is being made, but we need to shed tears for this weapon which is still in a much better place than things like repeater pistol or throwing axes.

You aren’t going to run into a handgun/longbow situation balance wise because the moonbow doesn’t use resources. Players do, which is why Fat Shark is fine making it an ammo-less not headshot dependent longbow instead of a bow mashed with no investment handgun breakpoints and AOE damage with like 11 DoT ticks per stack. In fact it still has more value to the elf careers as a whole than the alternative bows longbow aside, that only Waystalker can even use effectively. Mountain out of a molehill. I’d love to see some of this 100% headshot gameplay since apparently its a level all the local elves have arrived at together.

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#25

I know there are much better players than me but I play Cata and Cata twitch exclusively, 30 30 150 no blessing is my usual setting, and I confess that I don’t use Longbow because I can’t land headshots constantly to keep up with the special spawn and have been much more successful with MB on any of the elf careers but WS even after 4.6. Yes I know there are better elf players especially ones who play on modded difficulties, no I haven’t seen so many, nor do I think that they should be the standard as they are only handful of players.

There are so many occasions where you just can’t aim for the head too, like multiple Assassines flying around, Hookrats approaching your teammates showing only their backs to you, Ratlings firing behind structures with only their guns and feets visible, Globadiers side walking from 100m away, and more, and with hordes. Everytime that happens 2 shots out of 20, unless in case of WS, is spent because LB can’t one-shot bodyshot most of the specials. If one can keep on landing headshots constantly even on these circumstances than I salute thee, but that one is no way near a standard human being. Realistically speaking, that is an exceptional case and I know and have seen a lot of cata players who have aiming skill of more or less my level, most of them using either MB or Javelin like me for good reason, yet play successful with no problem. I’ve seen many good players playing just as good with MB after 4.6 and haven’t seen that many LB players except for WS, and since I myself also feel much more comfortable using MB than LB, I find it hard to assume that MB falls behind LB in practice.

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#26

I didn’t mean to imply “git gud” to anyone who prefers moonbow. I was just pointing out that Pertek’s implication that thinking moonbow underperforms is an indication of a lack of skill, is the opposite of true as longbow becomes better than moonbow with higher skill cap. I mean no offense to anyone who likes moonbow or longbow.

The larger issue with the changes being that it is such a direct comparison between moonbow and longbow. The weapons are far too similar. Imo, moonbow should have lost single target and kept aoe damage.

1 Like
#27

You only need about 60% headshot rate which should be doable for many if not most long time players.

Just 60% HS rate means your 20 shots is actually 50 shots, if 50 shots isnt enough to go on between ammo boxes then sure, moonbow is better.

#28

For people who care more about melee and movements and less about aim I believe MB performs better than LB, and that essencially differentiate the two weapons. If you like taking a step back and focus on sniping elites and specials in which case you would have more room to aim for their heads, you may go for LB. If you prefer to be a frontliner and use ranged only when necessity demands, go for MB. If you have skill to score hs for most of the time no matter your position or the circumstances, go for LB, but this is not a mandatory nor usual level of skill to play this game even on the highest official difficulty(excluding Weave) with some spice added on top. MB is perfectly viable on Cata and with practical reason to use it depending on your playstyle and aiming skill.

MB and LB overlapping issue isn’t as bad as it sounds becuase which overlaps what is different for each person, so it grants options for players to find what fits them best. They may aren’t drastically different but each serves their purpose for different users, not one completely overlapping the other for everyone like how things used to be before 4.6, so I find them both in their own good position.

edit: typos

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#29

That’s still 40% opportunity for the moonbow to be better than the longbow at picking up those missed headshots, which is 100% more reason to use than hagbane repeater or swiftbow. Plus you can run Hunter for free.

Not nearly at the crisis level we’re claiming, again I have a stack of weapons I’d like to see addressed before ‘the moonbow is worse than the longbow at 50%+ headshots pls fix’.

#30

What? No, no it isnt, that´s not how it works.

I am saying you can miss 4 outa 10 shots and longbow is likely to still be better than moonbow unless you got a really high specials population and you miss a ton in a short time to the point where ammo is fully depleted. But arguably moonbow is even worse if you actually miss a lot since you then need 3 outa your 4 shots to kill a single special which is a pretty terrible thing in cata.

Sure it recharges by itself in time, but that wont be of any help with a fire/gun/stomer bearing down on you.

…

Plus, if you wana use the bow for a hunter steroid build then you are in essence forced to both build crit out fully plus spamming shots on hordes to activate hunter in the first place. That seriously makes the bow pretty darn useless against specials in the first place. Even moreso if you cant headshot or hit them in the first place.

And even worse, to not waste a ton of energy all the time you need power investments into the bow, and you need to headshot, but longbow doesnt need those investments 9 outa 10 times and its better if you do headshot. This is why moonbow needs a rework.

Its literally only really good for the hunters steroid build or when you really dont wana bother with aim and just bodyshot even if it means your specials clearing under any kind of pressure is awful.

#31

you need 2 bodyshots or 1 headshot for specials, and 1 headshot + 1 bodyshot for strangler. You never need 3 shots. And you only need 1 headshot for stormvermins. Its a pretty nice bow if you run it correctly.

#32

Yeah and it can always fire until lock out, and only takes 18s for full cooldown. Letting it knock 6+ specials out for free in that time is a bit of a joke expectation, lets try to put some economy into the weapon. Hunter is still up for 4 seconds when you can fire again.

#33

Thank you for actually reading what i wrote /s :sleepy:

…

Sarcasm aside, i specifically wrote that if you miss a lot of shots then moonbow is actually just terrible too, miss one against a special and you´ll end up spending 3 outa 4 available shots to kill that one target.

If you have a decent headshot hitrate? Longbow is better.

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#34

Definitely better with options. Problem is most people here are a bit paradoxical about whay they want. They want a clearcut “best” weapon, but it can’t be overpowered. :upside_down_face:

1 Like
#35

Seems so, for me moonbow is another playstyle than longbow, but both are good. I use moonbow on shade and handmaiden for dealing damage on Maulers and SVs while closing up to melee combat, so its a very ammo expensive playstyle which i cant really do with Longbow. And longbow is more sniping

1 Like
#36

It takes a lot of investment to get the SV headshot threshold, which takes away potential for the rest of your build.

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#37

I’m sorry but the moonfire bow is trash-tier now.
I get that the elites didn’t like it because it robbed them of green circles and they felt it over-performed, but that’s all subjective in a PvE game and isn’t grounds to justify this nerf.

One argument I continue to see in defense of the nerf is that it has “unlimited ammo”
Well, let’s remove the unlimited ammo trait, and then I’d ask the people who defend this nerf if they still think the moonbow is “viable” I bet few would.

The reason being is if the moonbow had finite ammo, then it would be outclassed by every other bow. The LB is superior at sniping specials, the hag is superior at melting hordes, elites and monsters, and the swift would have the greater ammo pool.

The old MB was a hybrid between the LB and the Hag, that’s what made it so much fun and interesting. The nerf was done, from what I can tell, to satisfy the elitist in the forums who complained about it continuously, who wanted a bow that had infinite ammo, that did not over perform and could be used to snipe specials on cata with no real utility outside of that confined, battle of attrition role. This nerf has not only killed the unique personality of the MB to fit this role, but is has also really killed the enjoyment of the weapon, which is the biggest sin of all. They even have the audacity to say they are the majority, but sorry I don’t recall there being an in game player base vote to determine that to be the case. Alas, that’s the problem that happens with any game that has a small community, an echo chamber is eventually formed.

So congratulations everyone on here who complained to Fatshark about the MB being “too good” you got what you wanted, another unremarkable weapon in are arsenal, which only serves a niche role for cata players or attrition games, but it is otherwise collecting dust, in the trash, forgotten by the average player, who just won’t touch it anymore. Great work guys, you’ve killed the fun for the ordinary players, but at least you got your balance right? No wonder the game population has been stagnant for years.

I only regret that I actually paid money for this wretched thing.
Had I known in a year it would turn out to be another mediocre, run of a mill weapon, I’d never would have bought it.

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#38

It got nerfed because it was a faceroll weapon.

It outperformed anything and everything and was good against hordes, elites, specials and monsters. The nerf was justified - people need to get over it and learn to play the game again.

6 Likes
#39

The previous iteration was easily the most overpowered ranged weapon this game has ever had. PVE or not this game is supposed to have some sort of challenge in the highest difficulties, it is an 4 player co-op game after all and not a single player rpg… but when you had something as absurdly powerful as moonfire you could easily just power trough most difficulty spikes as a solo player which defeats the purpose of those higher difficulties.

Yeah I honestly rather have something that is slightly underpowered rather than something that twists difficulty to such an extend. Yeah I’m not the biggest fan of how the nerf turned up but that’s on fatshark.

It seems like this gets brought up in every single moonfire nerf megathread or steam thread but are you seriously forgetting that the weapon pack also contains stuff for the other characters too?

It almost seems like for most who use this argument the only thing worthy about the pack was the absolutely overturned weapon and nothing else.
Whatever the case people should stop buying dlc packs if they cannot accept that those might get changed in the future.

3 Likes
#40

Its not so much green circles as it just was too good at killing everything in sight on a short cooldown, not much of a coop with one guy having most of the fun for themselves.
’
Not that this does mean that this result after a year of waiting for changes, requested during that entire time, was a good one though. For teamplay this might be letting more people have fun but on the other hand it feels like a change that got cooked up over a week and implemented ASAP on the basis of “lets do something even if its not good after all this time”.