Moonfire Bow is Overpowered

Here you go.

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Do me a favor. Go to modded and use Moonfire on FK. Play a map.

Iam gonna summarise the experience: “How to turn FK into a DPS careers with this one simple trick!”

Griffon doesnt do that. No other weapon does do that. You don’t need any Talents for Moonfire to do its work.

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This is a very fair post. I’ll expose my point of view regarding this.
I have an issue with the “OP stuff” when said stuff replaces the need to actually get good at the game.

It’s annoying to me because I feel that people relying on “big numbers” won’t be able to handle the pressure of the difficulty, because they’ve been wrongfully led to believe they could tackle it. I also feel like it devalues the investment I’ve had to put in to learn the game and actually make Cataclysm feel like a fun breeze.

I’m not saying it’s easy, but a year ago I could rely on my teammates and expect them to know what they were doing, or at least most of them. Of course, we’ve all had to learn to play Cata, but when I learnt I joined QP lobbies with 3 veteran Cata players. Nowadays, there’s only one or two of us capable of carrying ourselves in an overwhelming proportion of the games.

I’m interested on my fellows opinion on this, but I personally had ~80-90% success rate on full books legend runs when I still used to run them (except for Convo :stuck_out_tongue:). Just get curse resistance and it’s not very different from a normal run.
I used to often see numbers between 0 and 300 in damage taken on the scoreboard ; nowadays I see 1200s every other game. I also end up more often than I’d like with most special kills playing Grail Knight, despite a WS in the party.

What I regret is a skill floor going down, and I do blame the premium careers and the forgotten relics for that.

Sounds about right, I just doubt many here still do active full book runs or at least i don’t really touch legend nowadays at all.

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I hear the logical point that when an item negates the need for skill, it’s not fun. That describes the Moonfire bow to a T, and I think the main issue is with the quick recharge and the total amount of shots. You can fire 4 charged shots and be ready again in less than 10 seconds. It’ll wipe out patrols on cataclysm solo. Just reduce it to two or three charged shots max with a 15% slower recharge, and I think that should do it. I would argue that the throwing spears are nearly as good as the Moonfire bow though. It takes just a few seconds to refill, and they do comparable damage to a longbow. They’re like Bardin’s throwing axes, but better.

I admit the Moonfire bow needs to be nerfed, and I said that but the bigger issue is that (in my experience) most players can’t survive Legend with books. When we do survive, most are using said “OP” weapons, using anything but the meta weapons, fail more often than not.

Here are a few examples:
I rarely see a mace or hammer, and when I do see Kruber’s hammer, I see a foot knight that gets poked quite a bit, even with the speed talents. I rarely see Ironbreaker with a shield, particularly, with a hammer and shield. I rarely see Bardin with a one-handed hammer. I rarely see Kerillian’s multi-shot crossbow. I rarely see hagbane or swift bow ( although, hagbane is pretty good so?? ). I rarely see Saltzpyre with an axe. I wouldn’t use about half the weapons each character has, not because I think the main ones in use are OP, but because many of the other weapons seem mediocre.

I hear about things like this “80%-90%” success rate with books, but I don’t see it. I don’t care if you’ve played the game for over 2000 hours, it doesn’t change the experience I’m having. My rate is roughly 40-50% success with all books, and as you mentioned, when playing Grail Knight, I’m getting the most specials with a Waystalker in the party. It’s rare to find a team where all 4 players are competent. Lately, more often than not, I find I’m the last alive and end up with the most special kills and the most team revives.

I wish I could ignore people talking about what’s OP, but I care too much about the game (Vermintide 2 is one of the few I enjoy regularly). “OP” has become a buzzword. When one thing is nerfed, then focus goes on to the next. Because most of what I hear is anecdotes that don’t match my own, how do I know when one thing is OP, or that most other weapons are not as powerful enough? Also, do you think a game like Vermintide should shape itself around the experience of players who play at the highest difficulty?

I played a number of Cataclysm games with experienced players and they all talked about what needed nerfing, and then lost the weekly challenge about 20x in a row. C’mon, maybe the issue is that about half the weapons aren’t strong enough.

The thing is we have a longer period to compare to. I’ve been playing for a bit over 2 years I believe, after playing some VT1 back in ~2016.
I don’t have the same perspective as the veteran players here who played pre-WoM cause I picked VT2 up just around when it was released and my understanding of the game wasn’t enough back then to notice the differences.
I play a legend full book run once every season, but I used to run them all the time up until a bit over a year ago.
The difference between your experience of the game and mine is exactly what I’m refering to though. People are getting worse because the game gives them tools that make it look easier, and doesn’t encourage them to learn to play better and rewards them despite it.

Playerbases overall level is not going to magically get better either as long was we got these stupid ways to skip difficulty.

You/randoms don’t want to use these weapons because you got something that is AS powerful or more while still being generalist. Coghammer, sword&dagger, moonfire, javelin, Bretonnian longsword, Mace&sword, etc are all weapons that pretty much have everything you want without any downsides.
Its not even that hammers are bad, those are perfectly cata viable with bit of practice its just that you got options that can do what hammers can and still add on top of it.
This goes for nearly any “underpowered” weapon in this game. 1H axes are probaly the only exception of an weapon that really needs bit something extra to be worth running.

Like why would I use longbow, and go for headshots to conserve ammo with HM/shade when I literally can pick unlimited ammo weapon which can do similar or even better damage while not punishing for misses in the slightest?

This is the core on the issue why I for instance vehemently hate moonfire bow as a weapon. You just cannot buff weapons to this level either without just making new difficulties and honestly for many killing the game in the process.

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I do want to use other weapons, and I do, but the problem is, they are mediocre. Viable? You shouldn’t have to have 500+ hours for a weapon to be viable, and without specific talents, something like Kruber’s hammer isn’t viable. I’ve never seen a mercenary use it above Veteran difficulty. I get it, Moonfire is OP, but no one can admit some of the others are just not fun to use because they are so ineffective.

You say some are OP, and I say the others are Underpowered, you have your anecdotes, I have mine. That’s my point.

I really would like to see some detailed player stats. To me, player anecdotes aren’t that valuable. Most players are biased because they have spent too much, or too little time playing the game.

To me it does not sound like it. Also you most definitely don’t need to have +500 hours with every weapon to be able to use them. I’m currently sitting with little under 2000 hours and I can make every single kruber weapon work in cata. Can I utilize some of them better than others ? Well sure but hammer is perfectly viable.

Also if talents are not there to boosts weapons/builds natural traits or remove weaknesses, then what are they for again?

Yes, I have my anecdote’s and experiences since alpha of vermintide 2. Honestly i prefer this over someone who has barely played this game before the last balance update. Either way this sort of argument gets us nowhere.

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As much as i am for MB being nerfed, lets not go into hyperbole here, the recharge is 17 seconds unless you are playing waystalker with ammo refund and even then a hagbane can do more with a potion in hand in her particular case.

Why people doesnt use hagbane on her then? Either they cant figure out how to make it work or they do know and it´s disgustingly powerful, i myself used to do that for a long time when cata just got released and i felt myself in need of a crutch.

Its not that the weapons arent good enough with the exception of 1handed axes, pretty much everything else works or is even really good if the user knows how to apply them. No, the problem is that people dont know the tricks.

For instance, Krubers halberd.

I hardly know anyone except myself who uses this thing, i see it like once in a blue moon and usually not to great effect either. But, i myself have at least twice nearly fully solo´d chaos patrols during somewhat favorable conditions with it. And if no anti horde specialists like BW are present then i often compete for top damage as well.

The argument that we need numbers instead of anecdotes gets us nowhere? I guess the developers can just ignore the data they look at, and just listen to you. I believe we can get numbers, it would be implemented by the devs, but I suspect to some extent, they already do collect quite a bit of data.

Again, I’m just hearing you two echo the same argument, based on your experiences. If I walk out of the lab and claim I “witnessed” a new discovery, I’m going to be asked to back up what I witnessed with some evidence. Without that, my anecdote means nothing.

Anecdotes get us nowhere because, in lieu of evidence, I have no choice but to lean on my own anecdotes and experience as you do yours. We will not agree. I’ve played the game nearly every day over the last 8 months, and I have a different experience, but I don’t intend to sway you into thinking that my experience is the most accurate one. I only wish to convince people, we can’t really say what is overpowered or underpowered without something to back that up besides our subjective experience, because overpowered and underpowered are relative terms. Can’t we at least admit bias based on our experiences and see if we can get some data here?

I’m sorry, but what’s your argument exactly? That the game is too hard so people need to buff everything? Completion rate depends on both the difficulty and the best player’s skill in a party and by the numbers and composition of enemies.
You propose lowering the former, while @Frostysir argues that lowering the difficulty by introducing more powerful weapons will both lower the difficulty of the game and lower the average skill of the playerbase, which then loops around. And I tend to agree with that. So how is what you’re suggesting is really different from just choosing a difficulty one lower than the one you’re struggling with?

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Fatshark is tracking quite a bit of data: Developer Update - February 7 - #12 by Fatshark_Hedge

However, they have never shared this with the community and I think it is safe to assume that it will never be shared with. There might be different reasons for this, ranging from difficulties of proper presentation up to avoidance of reaching wrong conclusions. Because if you are not used to evaluate large amounts of data, you can make mistakes quite easily. A random example of such a thing would be a low pickrate misinterpreted as weak while it might be extremely strong to busted but difficult to perform/apply.

As such there is no choice as to go with proper explanation. Fatshark in the meantime will do the statistical analysis. And I am willing to bet money that both , a horizontal as well as a vertical analysis of the stats shows that we currently have some very busted options to chose from which are in dire need of a nerf.

Yes I think I have made this argument somewhere here recently: if FatShark were infallible at interpreting the data they have, we wouldn’t have had two major balance updates to the game along with numerous small adjustments.

Also purely statistical approach to analyzing pickrate can only lend you equal content coverage, but not quality of the game, review scores or revenue. Not directly anyway. So yeah - big data is more of a complex analysis.

P.S. Aren’t those kind of numbers considered personal data? Maybe that’s the reason we’ll never see it.

Errors in balance might have different issues. Wrong interpretation of data might be one. As you said, it is more complex and has to take outside interference into consideration like Guide XYZ say weapon 1 is meta which results in a rise of popularity, and weapon 2 is bad resulting in lower pickrates, etc. etc. And if that opinion is flawed it would also result in flawed data.

To the actual point I wanted to answer: No, I don’t see how this data would be personal data mainly because I play public games mostly and as such people can see in public space what I am using. The real argument however is that Fatshark would provide the data anomysed anyway. As long as any data can not be associated with you in any way, the data can not be considered personal.

If the bow would be nerfed to hagbane level I would still prefer it because of the bling. :sunglasses:
So much for the pickrate

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guys i think moonfire bow is overpowered

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You are asking questions that’d need their own thread in order to explain to a satisfactory degree.
How to tell if something is OP? Short answer is this. Risk vs reward. These two are interlinked. A riskier build generally speaking yields more reward than the than one more focussed on keeping the player alive. OP is when weapons/careers significantly lower the risk whilst hugely increasing the reward.

Why is this the case? Why is this my criteria for overpowered stuff in Vermintide? Skill. Vermintide IS a game of skill. The game does a horrible job of actually introducing new players to various basic mechanics but that’s another thread. With that in mind, a weapon/career that lowers risk, hence lowering the skill required to perform well with, and also disproportionally increasing the reward to the degree where an entire level of difficulty can be just skipped, is without a doubt OP.

Weapons have strengths and weaknesses. These need to balance each other out. Damage, reload speed, stagger etc. For example, Bardin’s pistol does too much. It’s great against all elites bar the Chaos Warriors. Decent special sniping range and makes cheese out of bosses. Weaknesses? You uhh… like the vast majority of ranged weapons, need to aim, reload and can run out of ammo? The weapons brings nearly unmatched reward and it has 100 dodges.

There are many facets to how a career performs, but for the sake of not writing an essay, let’s say that careers have a sort of baseline performance. For example, damage numbers for various careers/team comps on a scoreboard you are used to seeing after a particular run. Numbers that tell you if somebody performed particularly well that run etc.
New career comes out. You finish a run, and this new career basically does as much damage as two people. In other words, if felt you had 5 people playing, and not 4. This means that the risk vs reward ratio is just skewed more towards the reward side, but the risk was actively reduced. Because a career that can just delete basically everything in front of it has little to fear, hence less risk.

There’s more to write about this but it’s already a wall of off-topic text so I’ll cut it short.
As for your other two questions? The answers are experience and yes. Why? Open a new thread and ask one of these questions again.

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I have no interest in creating a separate topic, I’ve said my piece. I’m not going to convince anyone based on my own experience, and likewise, no one else can convince me otherwise without evidence. Minor anecdotes don’t mean much in the bigger picture, and that’s my argument in a nutshell. Newton’s Flaming Laser Sword, that which cannot be settled by experiment, is not worth debating. It can be settled, but we don’t have solid information.

Back to the Moonfire Bow, if Fatshark doesn’t show the data, at the very least, do we have some stats on the weapon itself? I’d like to cross-compare it to other ranged weapons.

Some guys ran a modded tournament where as far as i understand (didnt participate) moonfire overwhelmingly dominated pickrates and consistently output top tier damage across basically all elf careers-

As for stats on the weapon, basically one shot does 170 damage, it can fire 5 semi charged or 4 fully charged. Fully charged explodes in a small area doing about 110 to all targets in the area and the recharge time from bottom to full is 17~

A semi charged shot in cata kills anything smaller than a chaos warrior in a single hit, meanwhile elf longbow on a bodyshot does about …is it 30 to 40? damage. A headshot from it kills anything smaller than a mauler but it usually doesnt penetrate at all and it does no AOE.

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