Moonfire Bow is Overpowered

This isn’t at all elitist honestly, content is split into different difficulty levels for a reason. Bad players being able to function in difficulties they otherwise wouldn’t be ready for due to busted builds is absolutely a bad thing.

You can 100% tell when someone is sott boosted, they just very clearly don’t have the gamesense or general knowledge about positioning a decent cata player would. Nerfing the class so you don’t have people alternating between floor tanking and hard stomping everything would be a very good change.

This is all ignoring what happens when a decent player is on sott too, let alone a very good one.


@swpz I really don’t understand the logic with a lot of your points here. So me voicing to FS that moonbow is broken overpowered and a fun vampire is telling others how to play which is a no no, but you literally telling me the solution is to not use a weapon I paid for is… not telling me how to play the game? Or is this all based on a seemingly baseless assumption that your view point forms the majority opinion?

Where did this bizarre, entitled attitude come from that difficulty levels are “content” and thus should be accessible by all players regardless of their skill, time investment, or willingness to learn and get better? And yes, that extends to challenges and cosmetics, since when is it expected that every little thing in a game needs to be handed out to every player on a silver platter? Isn’t the point of those to achieve something challenging, and that forms a core part of why it’s rewarding?


The logic is simple, you think the product (in this case MFB) is OP, we disagree. We are both paying customers and so our opinions are equally valid. Yes, telling you to not use your product is ridiculous, so is your asking FS to change the product we also paid for. You speak of entitled but you have the opinion FS should blanket change a product because you think it’s problematic and because you paid to use it. Did others not pay to use the exact same product? Is business a majority opinion consensus or are customers immediately entitled to refunds if parts of the content they paid for are changed without consent? Surely you see the hypocrisy?

You cite game play balance as the reason, yet this is not a competitive game and as pointed out, skilled players throw balance out the window anyways. Cataclysm players are without a doubt skilled and balancing around them is completely pointless as it leaves out the majority of players who are not on that level. That MFB is strong on cata means it is strong across all difficulties. So it kills a special with one body shot in cata, guess in veteran it would kill a special just with the AOE, if the damage is reduced it would not do that any longer, so how is this not a wide reaching change?

You’d be better off asking FS to increase the difficulty of cata. Eg, higher damage resistance, DoT resistance, faster movement, etc. This would only affect the relevant group of players in the end game mode who are apparently frustrated with the how easy certain builds make the mode and not affect anyone else.

Difficulty is content, anything within the game is content. You buy a game to play all of it, you buy the base VT2 game for a warhammer hack and slash FPS style vs skaven/nurgle chaos. You buy additional DLC for the maps. You buy WoM to unlock cataclysm and BM. Everything contained within the base game and DLC is content that as a player, you should be able to access and complete regardless of what route you take. You can argue players in theory should work towards it as that’s what you believe is rewarding, that is your opinion. It could easily be argued back that some players want all the skins off the get go so they can look awesome and play how they wish. An all hats mode was made on modded realm for this express purpose.


You’re taking issues with what pronouns we decide to use to refer to ourselves as? That’s fairly unproductive.

I would say partially no. Some measure of achievement is to be had from completing the games core challenges, earning all legend skins, or grinding out a specific portrait frame. That external validation is to be had when people recognize your completion, but how difficult was it really? A cata FOW frame has higher prestige, but it is possible that was cheated. A high weave border has the same fate. I don’t get a special border for completing FOW with the twins modifier, and I don’t care because the joy of the challenge itself was worth it.

I am more intrinsically motivated than the average person, but I wonder how much of a “challenge” things need to be in order to have nice cosmetics. FS already hands out the shillings for the emporium regardless of difficulty and no one complains. Not to say there shouldn’t be difficult skins etc. to acquire, but rather that low skill players shouldn’t be left out.

And this challenge to earn and express competence comes into game balance as well. I look back at legend right after the BBB and I see how much “harder” things are for those same builds now than before. (E.g. a pre nerf exe sword GK true solo.) But at the same time the power creep does cheapen the experience for everyone else who actually did the “difficult” part of legend. For example, I view the completion of solo cata FOW using handmaiden with moonbow as somewhat impressive, but not really impressive. Doing the same with Zealot? Yes it uses some cheese, but there is significantly more skill expression, less “get out of jail free” and more engaging risk.


Give low skill and high skill players something to work for, but give more preference to the low skill players because early external motivation is more important to them.

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It’s just weird man, I feel like I’m talking to legion from mass effect.


Technically speaking we all purchase DLC with the knowledge it’s subject to being tweaked in future patches; we consent by default in ToS. This isn’t a new thing in games, it’s the same when purchasing the game itself


You can only buff enemies so much before enemies are literally hitpoint sponges or players CPU:s explode due to enemy density. It would not fix the issue anyways, if anything it only highlights the most broken parts of this game because those are the things that are left when we push the difficulty to the absolute limits.

This also conflicts when new content is added, surely if i pay for something then it should be viable even in the top end? and the cycle repeats. You simply cannot keep creating 20+ difficulties, it is infinitely easier to balance on a baseline.

If anything is to be argued its where this baseline should be.

ToS does not protect a company from changing a product, especially not in the EU. NA consumer protection laws are less stringent.

We figure the DLC weapons will never be touched for this simple reason. FS would be issuing refunds to many unhappy people. Eg: dwarf players who bought the DLC for the torpedo weapon - advertised in FS own promotional videos as used for the purposes of deleting bosses in 1-2 shots (think the video showed a troll losing half its HP bar in one shot).


And any form of balance will affect any and all difficulties. As noted above, if a single body shot kills in cata, then an AOE would kill on veteran. If you need 2 body shots to kill on cata, you’d likely need a single body shot now to kill on veteran. You’ve essentially changed beginner mode from “can just aim in the general direction” to “must actually aim and hit”. If cata being easy is the problem then adding damage resistance to cata only would be an easy solution. Making specials 50% resistant to range/DoT damage would achieve the effect of 2 body shots without touching any other difficulty.

Capping hero power also achieves the same result. Having higher difficulty cap your hero power progressively could be an interesting solution without touching anything else.

Doesn’t change the fact that the weapon is DLC paid for and advertised as very powerful but that’s another discussion.

If you need external motivation to do something, you don’t like doing it.
You don’t get rewarded for eating ice cream. The ice cream is the reward.

How come Elgi balance posts always get derailed like that. “We don’t need balancing in PvE games!” “Oh NO! I hated that update! It should have been optional!” and “Just add more difficulties! Legend should be the new Veteran!” must be the most visited stations, that were not put on the timetable, ever.

Shitty solution. “How to make every weapon that is not a Nuclear Fairy Bow useless in one easy step!”


This is getting into straw territory really. The lowest difficulties are already limited by hero power limits which can obviously be adjusted if this sort of thing is suddenly an big issue below champion. Above that, I really don’t think you have an argument.

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The MFB, by fact, is exceptionally overpowered. ~160 damage from a single MFB arrow compared to ~40 from hagbane or ~55 from longbow.

Facts are valid. Opinions are too. At the end of the day it’s up to FS to deliver a product people like so that they purchase it.

We are players, not a shareholders or product managers. We can enjoy the game as it is and voice our opinions, but we aren’t entitled to refunds if the product delivered is slightly different than expected.

LOL. Just miss and it kills a special on veteran? I don’t think people will miss that anymore than missing Garden of Morr skip exploits. If all you play is legend than a nerf to MFB of -50% damage would literally be unnoticed by you. You most likely won’t even be affected by the MFB being nerfed. Why fight against proposed nerfs?

Patently untrue. It would destroy anything except the top performing, overpowered stuff. And it would make it harder for players to access. Going from legend to cata to cata 2 is a smooth progression curve. Eliminating cata 1 and cata 2 because MFB is doing too well doesn’t solve balance issues, it creates them.

Exactly this. Weapons can and should have variance, but a stringent and controlled amount.

Really, because it seems, thus far, from reading, hagbane and MFB are the only weapons considered “overpowered” and both have one thing in common, DoT effects.

50% DoT resistance would not touch LB or SB but would severely impact DoT weapons - and probably neuter Sienna.

DLC weapons and DLC classes and a ton of DLC content has already seen numerous patches over the lifetime of the game so idk what kind of EU laws you’re referring to especially since multiple games do the same thing without issue


I don’t know why you’d figure this, when they’ve already shown they’re willing to tweak DLC weapons. This is a very silly assumption to make.

I’m confused, is this meant to be an issue?

It’s not a discussion at all, FS are completely legally allowed to make balance changes, and when you buy a piece of content from them you should be doing so aware that it likely will get changes in the future.

Additionally, this is all you’re told about moonfire bow when you buy the forgotten relics pack.

“Forget carrying a quiver - this magical bow creates arrows from thin air!”

I don’t think anyone is arguing this should be changed.


For crying out … Its not the dot that makes these weapons overpowered by themselves, its the combination of attributes.
No one would give 2 shits if moonfire only did total of 50 dot damage.


Wargaming (Cyprus based) comes to mind in that premium (paid for) vehicles cannot be changed, the last time they did it, refunds were issued en masse in the EU. For that company at least, the policy is, we can only buff paid for items, we can never nerf. FS is based in Sweden so they’re fairly bound by EU regulations if this example is any precedent.


Yes, up to FS to deliver in their best business interests.

We are indeed entitled to refunds if a product is no longer “as advertised”.

You’ve missed the point it seems. The argument we’ve been essentially responding to has been"if you can’t do higher difficulty go play lower", this seems to have morphed into “too bad if you have a harder time in lower, get better”. Yes, you can intentionally shoot the ground, AOE splash and kill things at lower difficulty without ever directly hitting them. Any change would affect us, why do you think it would not? We could play in recruit and if you lowered the damage, it would affect us. That is simply how blanket changes work.

“Cata is supposed to be difficult and should be content locked away to only the best players. Players who rely on crutches/overpowered builds should be denied the ability to play cata and should improve first” is the vibe we’ve been getting here. So now it should be accessible?


That’s odd, if damage isn’t the issue then what’s grievance with specials being killed with only body shots?


What is being asked for is not a “tweak” it’s essentially a rework making an item no longer what it used to be.

That example is for those who say “go play lower difficulty if you want easy, you’re not affected” - except you are. Any blanket change affects all modes and not just the allegedly targeted mode.

This, we will see. Wargaming tried something similar years ago, it was quite hilarious to watch the refunds drama as they had to reimburse many players who bought a tank, that was then nerfed into the ground for “balance”.

No, when type-59 was nerfed it literally hurt their bottom lines because so many were complaining about it. It really has nothing to do with EULA or eu laws for that matter, they simply don’t want bad press like that to happen again.
Most of the tanks are sold with gold anyways, so when you purchase gold you already have pretty good idea what you are getting into.

Its also a one community you can ask what they think about op premiums like chieftain.

I’m honestly feeling like i’m being trolled right now. I gave you an example where if the bow only and i mean ONLY did 50 dot damage it would be considered fine, but it does not do only 50 dot damage does it? No the average infantry damage is closer to 100 points which means it can overkill legend stormvermin 2 times before it runs out.

Yes, that’s why they may adjust gold tanks but not ones sold with cash (the better ones anyways).

For charged shots: It does 160 over 5 seconds, 40 upfront and 120 as burn. If we halved the burn it would deal 40 upfront, 60 as burn over 5 seconds. As it stands, you can get 5 shots at full charge for 160 each, so 800 damage of which 600 is burn over 10 seconds (time to shoot all 5 shots + burn time) and 150 is impact, a 50% burn reduction (however you do it) lowers this to 200 impact and 300 burn over 10 seconds for a total of 600 (we add one more shot as it will gain roughly 1 charge from start to finish).

Uncharged is arguably worse as there is no difference in damage and you gain +2 for “reasons” but those aren’t exactly easy to aim. Trade offs.

Compared to LB: 55 per shot x 10 shots over 10 seconds for 550.

Compared to SB: 30 per shot for 15 shots over 10 seconds for 450.

Compared to HB: 40 per shot for 15 shots over 10 seconds for 600.

A 50% burn reduction would pull it into complete parity with HB but it would also completely lose out over sustain compared to the other 3.

No it isn’t, it’s literally a tweak lmao. You don’t need to rework it or anything, you just need to turn some numbers down.


Games workshop updates rules for their stuff constantly, and nobody gets a refund for them. You bought a model, you didn’t buy a model and a guarantee the rules for it would never change.

I don’t know any war gaming company that puts out a guarantee their rules will never change.

Edit: Oh, it’s a specific company called wargaming? Can you give more details? I don’t believe at all they had to refund anyone after a patch.


Since he probably don’t know, guess I will answer this before I head off.
Premium Vehicle changes in the 8.6 patch
The relevant part being in the T26E4 Super pershing paragraph where it says “once the changes have been made to the T26E4 SuperPershing, owners who purchased the vehicle prior to the changes will have the opportunity to sell it for the full retail price in Gold (7,200). Please be aware, these changes and the refund option will take place in a future patch.”

You won’t really find anything more relevant than that in the games history. You can also note it only refunds the gold and not actual hard cash.