Yes, i said it and i can support this statement. I just made a quick damage test on the dummies as handmaiden, only being on Heropower 650 without any power increasing talents, properties or traits. Here are the results: Moonfire Bow unpowered charged body shot vs. infantry: 29.25 + 7 + 12 * 8.25 = 135.25 Damage Moonfire Bow unpowered light body shot vs. infantry: 29.25 + 6 * 8.25 = 78.75 Damage Moonfire Bow unpowered charged head shot vs. infantry: 50 + 7 + 12 * 8.25 = 156 Damage Moonfire Bow unpowered light head shot vs. infantry: 50 + 6 * 8.25 = 99.5 Damage Moonfire Bow unpowered charged body shot vs. armor: 14.75 + 1.75 + 12 * 4.25 = 67.5 Damage Moonfire Bow unpowered light body shot vs. armor: 14.75 + 6 * 4.25 = 40.25 Damage Moonfire Bow unpowered charged head shot vs. armor: 25 + 1.75 + 12 * 4.25 = 77.75 Damage Moonfire Bow unpowered light head shot vs. armor: 25 + 6 * 4.25 = 50.5 Damage Needless to say that the Moonfire Bow is able to kill every special on legend with a light attack body shot without the need to reach for any form of breakpoints. Same as with cata and charged body shots, though the light shot already does more than enough damage that surely a breakpoint for infantry specials can be reached even without going full into the build. Just for a little comparison, Waystalker needs 4 specific properties and 2 talents to even come to the point of oneshotting every special on legend with a charged body shot from the Longbow and that is already the highest she can go with one arrow. Of course we could say that Moonfire Bow is limited, but 6 light shots or 4 charged shots are fairly enough for the majority of situations. No, i am going a little further here and say that Moonfire Bow is basically a Handgun with unlimited ammunition, no reload time and a small AoE. Moonfire Bow alone trivializes legend runs even in a newbies hand, it has almost no weakness. Its effective against infantry, armor, super armor and monster resistance. Its easily the best weapon in the game right now by a margin and only because its clearly overpowered. I see the problem in the DoT. It usually does way more damage than the initial hit, almost around double the damage. That needs to be toned down. Moonfire has to be nerfed to the point that it needs to reach breakpoints to flourish on legend +. Right now the breakpoints are more of an unneeded joke, like killing stormvermin with one light body shot.

[image] swpz: Bosses would be more interesting if phantom hit boxes weren’t a thing and you could be struck by something you had clearly avoided. Eh… Cant say much to this without seeing some video example of this happening. For me personally there is rarely a situation that makes me go “eh” these days apart from playing in really high ping hosted games. Bosses attacks currently are 100% avoidable/blockable if you understand them. Various sitsuations aside, like stuck on terrain, enemies, etc excluded. [image] swpz: This example is not limited to boxes, tracking attacks lasting dozens of meters resulting in the monster “sliding” across the map to hit you has been an issue since launch. These cannot be avoided short of outright deleting the target which may presumably be why such builds exist in the first place. Why have more risk than necessary? This is one of those scenarios again that I would have to see a video to really say what’s going on. I can agree that mob tracking/running attacking can still be problematic but there are also ways to mitigate it a lot by understanding what triggers these types of attacks. Sure builds can help you to survive these easier but its generally lack of understanding what triggers running attacks that kill people. And yeah I’ve seen the videos about maulers going 200km/h while swingin a massive maul, I’m not blind that these thing still do happen. [image] swpz: On another note, FS tried “balance” by introducing BM. WoM remains the most negatively reviewed DLC they have. I honestly could say a lot about wom, but we also have to remember that nearly everyone who were commenting on the changes hated it one way or a other. It was a massive miss from fatshark and not really a good “balance” attempt in any ways. For better example we can only look at the BBB and the changes from that patch. Nearly everyone liked it, even if we got some misses from that patch as well.

[image] swpz: They are playing normally. Most people are trend followers and will use whatever build is considered “best”, by best it means overpowered usually. When I first started playing back in pre-2.0, I played literally nothing but Mercenary for like the first 100 wins, literally just cause I loved the aesthetic of The Empire, and used weapons like greatsword, halberd and 1h mace to simulate the look and feel of a state troop and Empire Greatsword/German Landsknecht. Most players start off playing just what looks coolest to them, and use absolute meme tier weapon loadouts, cause in lower difficulties people don’t care about any sort of meta, and just play to have fun. At least, that was my experience. I don’t think people in recruit-champion care about any sort of meta, since most of the OP stuff in this game only shines in higher difficulties. Therefore, any sort of nerfs to OP stuff wouldn’t affect lower difficulties, cause everything dies there anyways. All OP builds allow is access to difficulties people normally couldn’t do. Which, at that point, might as well just play normally with regular builds and get better naturally. Even back when I had only 100-200 hours, I hated the meta loadouts that I’d constantly see. Especially the classic Zealot with Axe & Falchion + BoP. Just a braindead build that could steamroll Legend and mindlessly push forward. That made the game less fun for me back then. [image] swpz: This is probably why you see so many SoT around and why every dwarf uses the torpedo weapon or MWP. Seeing a WS/HM/Shade these days is a rarity because SoT per all the guides is leagues ahead of the other 3. And you don’t see a problem with that? There’s dozens of weapons in the game that don’t see much use, despite being perfectly viable, simply because overpowered weapons exist. That just destroys build variety and any sort of niche you’d want to fill, since OP stuff is mostly generalist and just does everything, eliminating the need for teamwork. [image] swpz: Define: a lot. This is a serious question. Cannot recall a single game where anyone in chat complained that they were not having fun because a SoT, a BH or an OE blew everything up. They were quite congratulatory to the individual for carrying the run. I don’t often complain in chat about seeing SotT in 90% of my games, but believe me, I despise it. [image] swpz: We suspect, this is an issue of casual players vs competitive players where in the former group is happy just to complete the run and get rewards where as the latter group is all about who got all the green circles. Not a single person in the world cares about green circles, I can assure you that. Personally, I couldn’t care less about winning, if it meant I was just playing walking simulator and barely get to do anything. Surely you play the game to have fun and kill stuff, right? Why would you want other people to complete the game for you? And why do you even care about chests to begin with? What’s there to get? [image] swpz: “Less skill needed”, why do you care? Unless you consider every game a competition between players and not a cooperative run to finish and get rewards? There’s no cooperation when OP builds just destroy everything. Teamwork doesn’t exist in that scenario. I hate OP stuff cause I want to do my fair share in helping the team and win the run, not watch someone else do the job of 3 players singlehandedly, simply because they’re using an OP loadout. [image] swpz: You’d have a point if FS didn’t make legend a criteria for the best looking skins (missions) and higher reward drops for other skins (red equipment). None of those are necessary to play the game. I’d go so far as to say that each and every single Legend skin is strictly inferior to the base version. They look terrible, especially WHC. [image] swpz: WS/WHC main here with 2500h, primarily play legend as no reward increase at cata makes the game mode (in our view) pointless and played by people who we suppose want a challenge? From that perspective: [image] swpz: They were quite congratulatory to the individual for carrying the run and getting them a free chest. So, genuine question right. You have 2500 hours and still play Legend, allegedly for the reward. What are you still doing? What’s there to get for you? What do you not have? What’s there to achieve still? What stuff is there to get to begin with? Personally, the loot aspect in this game is less than good, and is instead actively detrimental to the enjoyment of the game. You play for fun, right? Would you find it fun to walk through a level and get a chest? Does the chest give you a dopamine release?

[image] Rebel: You play for fun, right? Would you find it fun to walk through a level and get a chest? Does the chest give you a dopamine release? I would actually love a feature at this point where I can gift my excess chests to someone.

Personally? Started as FK (Empire/Bretonnia/Chaos WHFB tabletop player) for the “armoured knight” concept. Ended up WS/WHC main mostly because in QP no one deals with specials reliably, so, it’s best you do the job yourself (BOP is excellent for special control). No, don’t see a problem with it so long as the SoT player is having fun. You might wonder why we’re not affected by it, will get to that. The green circle thing was viral on reddit VT for awhile after introduction. That’s where the observation came from, not sure if it holds water still. You may care about the chests when you don’t have all the drops (eg: seeing level 10s). No there’s no cooperation, but think of it this way, QP is literally 4 strangers randomly joining a game. Close to no one uses voice chat, many players don’t even ping targets, trigger patrols, etc. This may be a team game but the reality is, many play for themselves, it might as well be single player. You simply “hope” the other 3 know what they are doing. Not necessary, perhaps not but still part of the game and for people who like completion, something to be done. 2500h in, primarily legend, yes. Why? Simple, we like the warhammer universe and play this game to chill and not think. Legend is that level where it’s essentially a cakewalk. Cata requires somewhat more attention and is not desirable. It is also not logical to play on a higher difficulty (thus requiring more attention) when the rewards are identical to that of a lower difficulty. Not needing the rewards is irrelevant to the choice of intentionally accepting a subpar reward.

[image] swpz: play this game to chill and not think. Why bother arguing on the forums then? With this degree of nihilism I’d expect you wouldn’t care about nerfs or otherwise. If the good players are so good and FS nerfs everything to the ground, well then drop to vet and not think again, no?

[image] swpz: If one wishes to appease this group, one should simply increase difficulty on the existing highest difficulty. There is ZERO reason to buff enemies up to the viability of imbalanced things like MFB or SoTT. That only further reduces viability of low tier weapons like 1H Axe or 1H sword. MFB would be “balanced” with something like double heat cost and ~70% less damage. It would not be trash, it would be fair. It currently does ~3 times the damage of hagbane with no ammo concern. SoTT would be “balanced” with complete removal of radiant, level 10, level 25, and no nuke ult. Her passive perks are so insanely strong she could lose half her kit and still be equal to her teammates. I absolutely HATE Sister. I hate playing with her, I hate playing as her. She trivializes content to such a degree I get no enjoyment from cataclysm. Instead of me contributing in my small part she does it all and she does it better. Horde clear and stagger as FK? She does it better and still does boss damage and special sniping. Play RV “support” build for the team? She does it better without trying. Playing some ridiculous damage build on BH? She doesn’t have to wait for crits, blows up bosses all the same, and is amazing in melee. Why do I even bother playing if going AFK nets me the same level of difficulty and reward? And as far as reward goes for playing, red items aren’t it. I enjoy the combat of this game, red items do help make the game easier to hit breakpoints, but that’s a drop rate balance issue NOT a game balance issue. Stemming from that is in my opinion the crux of lost players: poor support from FS. Want players to stick around longer? Smooth out the leveling process. There is no reason why it should take a new player 100-150 hours to hit the mathematical power cap for each hero and then a further 30-50 hours per hero to obtain the red items for mathematical parity with veteran players, then a further 20 hours per DLC weapon. All in all a minimum of ~70 hours for a newbie hero to become mathematically equivalent to a veteran hero. Want to obtain every item for meta builds for every hero? ~700 Hours in game of legend grinding. FS could offer 10x the exp and 10x the red item drop rates instead of creating a weapon that one shots cata specials at 450 power level! Players that pick up the game and drop it sub 100 hours haven’t had the chance to actually play the game the rest of the veteran players are playing. [image] swpz: Seems like the argument has moved from “equipment” to “player” which was where our point was. A good player makes anything good. By nerfing something because a small minority of players can make it very good you essentially ruin the fun for a far larger majority of players who are not on that level. Plenty of players read guides on steam, tweak their characters to meet all the breakpoints, etc and still perform poorly because they are just not as skilled. Good. Skill should be rewarded. “I win” buttons by simply selecting SoTT shouldn’t be an option. I don’t want unskilled and unappreciative players on my team. Bots can do that just fine thank you. I want to win, yes, but the struggle of duo twins on cata is far better a feeling of accomplishment when it’s a struggle rather than a breeze. If I want to breeze I can drop to recruit. [image] swpz: We are generally against nerfs on anything for this exact reason. The vast majority of the player base will never reach the level where they achieve performance in the upper percentile. I agree that lower skilled players are more affected by the removal of the mobility scooters and crutches, but what good is shooing off high skilled and devoted players for ones that weren’t devoted to begin with in hopes of keeping them. [image] swpz: In the case of players, most QP teams are clueless. There’s no reason why one person should end up with 100+ special kills at the end of a run if the team was equally competent Yeah QP legend is largely clueless. But better in game resources could help, and actually learning to get good at the game. And yes, sometimes one person will fall into being the designated special killer with little recourse. Playing with GK, Slayer, Waystalker, and Flamestorm UC has happened to me. Most specials can be killed in close range, but some can’t. [image] Rebel: All OP builds allow is access to difficulties people normally couldn’t do. Which, at that point, might as well just play normally with regular builds and get better naturally. ABSOLUTELY!

Notice we’re not a frequent poster. It’s inherently problematic to be subjected to changes in a game which works just fine because some players think it doesn’t work fine. This is essence are what any call for nerfs are, player A thinks aspect A in a game is a problem because of a personal reason, player A then decides to advocate aspect A be changed to suit them while ignoring that this opinion may not be shared. By telling players to drop difficulty one is are essentially telling them how to play what can arguably be a single player game (especially those who play private games with bots). One is also telling them to accept that they cannot access content in parts of the game they own because apparently they do not deserve to access it. OP builds can be even argued as good for this purpose, it allows less skilled players to play all of the game, even parts they cannot normally reach. @FrivolousWizard Regarding hagbane, do not understand the hype, never have understood it and still do not. Personally do not achieve record damage using it, it’s (in our opinion), an awful weapon to begin with. Low ammo count, unable to 1 shot specials instantly, endless friendly fire (mean you want to make other players in your game not enjoy the game, use hagbane, while they removed the FF indicator, taking endless “green” ticks is still quite annoying), pathetic base ticks. Is the gimmick that it must be used with a strength potion? 1h axe is garbage and nothing has changed this. 1h sword is essentially a weaker version of D/D and nothing has changed this. Just as 2h sword is garbage. Elf weapon choices have been limited since launch by FS choices. If FS wanted to make other weapons viable they should actually do that. Nerfing “strong” weapons does not make others viable if they are inherently bad. Take S/S, great for horde clear, but against armor they’re completely useless as heavy 1/2 are pathetically weak. So you shoot armoured, except you don’t have huntman armor piercing ability on any bow (except MFB now) so what do you do? You headshot. What if you can’t aim consistently? You don’t use the weapon. Use a glaive, use a spear, use D/D on crit build that can cleave hordes just as easily and delete armoured with heavy 1 headshots. Inherently bad weapon design is what limits their viability, not the presence of other stronger choices. Hate on elf class has been prevalent since launch if memory serves. Elf is a high skill ceiling class where in good elf players leave everyone in the dust as her kit is fundamentally good with exceptionally high damage and ability to survive through mobility. SoT is the latest addition to this trend. Red weapons are partly the illusion (it glows and looks awesome) and the ease of rerolling as it is guaranteed to reroll max. The rolling aspect is part of the game that is actually very grindy and does not help keep players in the game. This in a way is why wastes is so much more fun, gear isn’t relevant, you pick your boons as you go (and get some assigned to you via RNG) and that’s it. No hours spent on the crafting screen trying to roll that elusive 2 combo perfectly (if you don’t have red). Completely agree with the levelling process, too slow. They did make one good change which was move THP to the first talent, when it was the level 20+ talent that was quite absurd as anyone before level 20 was gimped. Nerfing equipment only penalizes less skilled players. A simple example is head shot vs body shot damage. Nerfing body shot damage but not changing damage per hit does not affect a player who can headshot 9/10 times, it does affect a player who can only do it 5/10 times who will now struggle more. The 9/10 player is still doing the same as before. Why can’t higher skilled players simply choose to not use overpowered options? Do not understand this, if you think it’s broken, do not use it? If you’re insisting on using it, then are you not creating/contributing to the very problem you are aggrieved by? Why insist on a blanket affects everyone solution? QP players being clueless also demonstrate a need for jack of all trades builds that can do anything. You play with an inherent assumption the other 3 are useless and you must do everything yourself. If they’re competent that’s a pleasant surprise. @Rebel Ranged THP wasn’t necessarily a bad thing. It allowed a team to recover from what would otherwise be a wipe by safely being able to recover some HP before they could find healing items. Do not see why a team should be penalized with a wipe just because of some hickups. Maps do take time. Personally never found issue with it, only one case comes to mind that made us go “this is a bit absurd”, a pyromancer with probably cheat engine firing ultimates every 2 seconds.

If no nerfs ever happened, there’d be no game to play. Imagine a timeline where ranged THP, Wigglemancer, Huntsman, ranged meta in general was untouched. That’s not a game I’d play at that point.

[image] swpz: Nerfing equipment only penalizes less skilled players. If anything, it’s the opposite. Less skilled players play on lower difficulties, where enemy density isn’t high enough for overpowered stuff to really shine. Less skilled players are also not able to push OP loadouts to their max. Lower levels would barely feel the nerfs.

Moonfire Bow is Overpowered

Warhammer: Vermintide 2 Gameplay Feedback

Saryk November 7, 2021, 10:24pm 209

I agree so much with Rebel here.

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Moonfire Bow is Overpowered

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