Playing with friends is of course fun but in my opinion the fun reaches a whole other level once teamplay actually becomes a requirement.
Teamplay for me starts once communication and task allocation becomes a neccessity.
In my opinion Vermintide was not a game that required a lot of communication if you played with good players and everybody choose a loadout meta loadout.
Then you were playing on a difficulty that was too low for you. Official unfortunately only goes up to cata for adventure maps, which is why most people adjust to that after a while. Up the mass and stagger resist. Play something like Cata 3, deathwish, onslaught and it will become relevant again using the same gameplay mechanics.
You donāt need to - i repeat - gimp players self-sustain for coopās sake. Modded content is proof of that.
Personally Iād like for Fatshark to release Cata 2 and 3 for official adventure maps, but you can only hope I guess.
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The following post is just what im thinking about teamplay. Im not critisicing any game or making any proposals to change it.
In my experiences the harder it is for a players to deal with a huge variety and quantity of threats the more likely it is that you gonna get real teamplay.
For example the game I experienced the most teamplay so far is Arma 3. If youre getting pinned down by an enemy squad its a huge gamble to peak out from your cover and engaging them yourself. You gonna have to communicate.
āGuys im pinned down, enemys at 90, 200m away, can somebody suppress or flank them?ā. Being limited in my abilitys makes it neccessary that i communicate
Now Vermintide. Everybody hears the specials spawn. No communication needed. Hookrat is coming up? Everybody hears that. Boss switches agro ā Soundcues plays. Enemy engages teammate from behind ā soundcues plays. Chaoswarrior in the horde is a pain in the a** ā Ping it and shade/bounty hunter/Pyro/huntsman takes care of it.
The reason why communication is not that much needed in Vermintide is not that the game is not hard enough. With randoms i still fail Legend runs from time to time. The reason is that threats donāt need to be communicated because they get announced by soundcues to everybody and pings allow to easely mark them and you usually donāt need others to enable you to play your āroleā.
Example 1:
The armored enemy is a threat i ping it ā no communication. The waystalker knows its her job to take care of it ā no communication. The waystalker does not need me to enable her to take care of the threat (using her ult) ā no communication.
Example 2:
Boss spawns everybody hears it ā no communication. Shade knows its her job ā no communication. Shade doesnāt need me to enable her to do her part (use ultimate) ā no communication.
Darktide counter example:
Big armored dude in horde is a problem i can ping it ā no communication.
Psyker knows he has best tools to deal with it ā no communication.
Psyker abillity takes quite some time though and he canāt defend at the same time. He might have to tell me he needs me to make room for him so i have to enable him to do his job. ā communication needed.
All i want to showcase with that post is that limiting a single players ability very often results in more communication and teamplay.
That of course doesnāt mean that you never have to communicate on high difficutlys in Vermintide.
Shades ability is on cooldown? maybe tell your teammate. But a lot more communication would be needed if she sometimes might need support in order to do her role.
I think between us this really is a matter of taste.
You seem to - correct me if Iām wrong, donāt wanna put words in your mouth - see frequent need for communication as something essential for teamplay and therefore feel that clear and role-specific limits placed on characters enhances the coop experience.
I on the other hand value the flexibility that comes along with less strict limits and hence more diverse decision making.
You mentioned, that V2 gives you tools to anticipate threats on your own and thereby lessens the need for explicit communication.
Personally I enjoy that feeling. Knowing everybody is on the same page, knows their kitās and their mateās kitās strengths and weaknesses - due to a deep undetstanding of the gameās fundamentals - and through that understanding their role in the moment without having excess need to communicate what is being understood implicitly. I see beauty in the simplicity and elegance of such a system. It allows you to zone in on the moment more easily and allows for faster pace and action.
I understand that my preference is less conducive to communication than yours, but I also do not view communication as something that is or should always be necessary for organic teamplay to emerge.
Ultimately this is a matter of preference and less about fact.
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This does have a flip-side to it however.
The more players can do as individuals, less need is there for cooperation which I believe is the main point of the argument.
The Veteran is a great example of this, as outside of getting nicked by Grabblers, they can in the hands of a skilled player do everything as of right now and arenāt necessarily needing of their fellow teammates, which we already saw as not that great based on beta and early launch feedback since everyone and their grandmas were playing Vets, thus turning the game into 4 solo guys playing through the same level.
Itās the same thing in VT2 and its infinite dodging which once you have mastered, makes you invulnerable, thus negating actual challenge from the game. That is why I like the way DT does it, as even if you know how to dodge perfectly, you still need to have situational awareness around you to make sure you donāt pin yourself into a corner, you canāt just spam dodge and push, you need to think before you act, or alternatively, work with your team.
You have to use your resources well, they are finite, be it your stamina, amount of dodging you can do or the physical limits of space around you.
So from preference standpoint, I prefer the way DT does it as it increases the need to learn how to balance several things and work with your teammates instead of figuring out two mechanics to become untouchable.
There is something that once more I need to repeat as I have said in many threads prior. The importance of patience. Iāll wait for at least 1 full year before I start properly going ham on what needs to be changed drastically, as that is usually how long it takes for FS to get the actual game itself out after hitting the release button. This usually tends to mean access to a system that doesnāt make us gamble with our equipment and instead lets us stick to what we are comfortable with, thus reducing the need to relearn the dodge frames and counts of all the weapons in the game as you progress, and of course, finetunes to balance and the Game Director.
Another sidenote that needs to be added here is that one should not consider Darktide Vermintide 3. The argument is the same as what took place when Bloodborne came out. It is similar in many ways to Dark Souls, yes, but it has major internal mechanical changes that totally shift the approach you need to take to tackle similar situations you had in Dark Souls. This of course made many players unwilling to acknowledge this fact, continuing to insist that it is just Dark Souls in Victorian London and that the tactics and methods used in the prior games SHOULD still remain as useful as they were then.
However, those players that adapted found the gameplay to be much more fluid and enjoyable.
It is the same thing I am noticing happening here with the argument where every point starts with āIn VT2ā¦ā, which just tells me the general idea being that Darktide = Vermintide 3 is strong in the minds of those that still havenāt adapted to the changes DT introduced to offer a unique experience from VT.
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Of course its a matter of taste 
Also if you like or dislike the melee combat changes is a matter of taste. Thats why im also getting a bit annoyed by @AlbrechtWM labeling @Darth_Angeal as a troll.
Everybody is just stating a opinion about an subjective topic. There is no reason to get hostile.
Communication is not essential for teamplay but it is where i notice im playing with other humans and not with bots. It is something I really like. You could also programm an AI to use its bounty hunter ultimate on the CW you ping. But an AI wonāt understand that you as the ogryn need help with some spread out ranged guys but you in exchange will keep its back clear.
This game has a voicechat so I donāt really understand why using it is such a big issue
Having certain classes doing specific roles is not necessary but can be a nice addition if it is not overdone.
And you have all of this in Vermintide already. So why can Darktide not take a bit of a different approach? Wouldnāt it be boring if this was just Vermintide 3?
This discussion is indeed about preferences and not about facts.
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yep. i was watching a new youtube channel (realasianrobot) its not that hes particulaly special its just he never played a vermintide game and hes playing damnation games and someone in the stream is is asking what the dodge limit is.
and of course he had no idea what he was talking about he had never hit diminishing returns with any weapon.
because in DT you very rarely need to dodge, yes even on damnation
Modded content is something different than playing the game the normal way. If you want to play with mods only, those modders can tweak the stuff for their difficulties aswell. But the devs should focus on the core experience the game offers, not something mods might have or donĀ“t.
Nothing against higher difficulties on the official realm, but if they balance around them recruit - cata will get easier if not pointless to play.
Doesnt change the mans point nor truth of it.
Hell mods were the reason why a good chunk of V2 weapons became usable (by the mod behaviour proving the point then altering the base game to behave the same way).
ItĀ“s also truth that more self-sustain will make the game easier and less coop-relevant. Also that itĀ“s āgimpedā is nothing but an opinion, because theyĀ“re used to thp that much, meanwhile toughness offer the same with more balancing across the classes.
ItĀ“s like the players who wanted to buff everything on the level of the powersword or changing classes because theyĀ“re ānot usableā on damnation. Hot takes, but yeah, do it and then give us atleast 2 more difficulties on topā¦ but then weĀ“ll have the same āissueā as before. Poeple who canĀ“t compete with them and find one or another thing useless, whatever.
If something is usable or not is highly opinion-based and skill-depended anyway. IĀ“ve read enough about āOnly one Psyker build is usableā or āOnly Zealots critbleed build is viableā, which is nonsense. And while weĀ“ve 5 different difficulties, itĀ“s better to balance about the mid-ones and offer a good skill-ceiling instead of relying on stats to beat 4 / 5.
Cope and word salad all you want, doesnt disprove the point that V2 modding already proved coop doesnt do anything to how much cooperation and teamwork goes on in game.
And no. Games with gear and character progression get balanced by the gear and features acquired being appropriate for the current content instead of making around 60~66% of the player options being noobtraps.
I disagree. Cooperation is simply a result for the need of load management and there is not one way to do that.
- Load division
- Every player has a load to carry, that is more or less specific to them, thereby estabilishing more
rigid roles.
- Every player has a load to carry, that is more or less specific to them, thereby estabilishing more
- Load sharing
- All players help carry all types of loads, thereby lessening the burden on their teammates and
adapt to fullfilling the role, that is required of them in the moment.
- All players help carry all types of loads, thereby lessening the burden on their teammates and
Veteran is not less designed for cooperation, he is just an example of a class build for load sharing, while the rest is for load division, which is how you get this discrepency. Everyone tries to fullfill their role and then feels a certain type of way when someone else can contribute towards their goal as well, but the reverse is not true.
Veteran being very capabale in the hands of a skilled player to me just speaks of a higher skill ceiling, which is always appreciated.
It does only does when you are punching way below your weight class. Your resources are not infinite. They simply do not block each otherās regeneration, which allows for different systems to be used in conjunction.
Because on the flipside you do not die in VT2 when getting cornered or what are you trying to contrast here?
I understand that sentiment, but considering that this is Fatsharkās third installment in the genre and an even worse state at release compared to their prior titile, they have not exactly earned said patience and I wonāt start acting like it. Every idiot can see - from a mile away - that decisions surrounding all the loot and RNG are bad without having to be told. Them implementing it anyway and effectively increasing the workload now to be dealt with is entirely on the them.
Well I am playing Damnation with decent success. I do not know how much further I would have to adapt in your opinion, but I still believe that a lot of the mobility changes and particularities surrounding toughness disrupt the pace of the game a bit too much.
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Considering how bad Fatshark makes their bots, I doubt you wouldnāt be able to differentiate between them and a player, but I get your point. Talking to each other makes things a lot more personal.
That is true, although presupposing everybody has situational awareness, you wouldnāt need VC among humans to achieve this.
I know what you mean. Worse even - Iāve had people tell me to stop using VC in Darktide no matter whether the situation warranted its use or not. Some people just aināt that social I suppose.
Generally speaking Iāve found you can have some of the nicest conversations in coop games.
I donāt exactly want it to be Vermintide 3. Also it wonāt.
The higher presence of ranged combat in the formula changes quite a bit already.
I simply find that some of the mobility changes compared to V2 and particularities pertaining to toughness break the pace a bit too often for my taste.
did not expect my last minute bump to get this much attention lmao
First of all, dodging isnāt infinite in VT2. Effective dodge count was a mechanic in that game just like itās a mechanic in DT, itās just that dodges were more effective, as I outlined in the OP. Second, āinvulnerableā is a vast overstatement. I see people posting stuff like this and I have to wonder why these god-tier players arenāt uploading their flawless cata solos to Youtube or anything. Even the most skilled players very rarely complete a match without taking damage, even in a regular match, let alone in a solo.
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One thing that needs to be considered is that range is insane strong in this game. This weaknesses are necessary to not make the players too invincible.
I agree with OP and would like some buffs to melee and netfs to ranged but i think darktide was designed to be like this.
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Perhaps I simply donāt have enough experience in DT, but I donāt agree. Ironic as it is, I feel that ranged weapons were far stronger in VT2 than in DT. They usually had better dodges and very often dealt more damage, plus you instantly switched to them. I donāt think thereās anything that can compare to most of Siennaās staffs, the griffonfoot pistols on bounty hunter, hagbane or swiftbow on waystalker, etc. Weapons in DT are usually good at one thing, either horde clear or anti elite/special, but there are very few ranged weapons that are good at everything and certainly none that are better in their specialty than the specialized weapons in VT2, except for maybe the bolter against carapace armor.
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In Vermintide there wasnāt so big ammo sustain like in Darktide for most careers so it wasnāt possible for careers to spam them as much.
They had more mobilty but much more weaknesses comprared to Darktide.
I feel quite the opposite
Most of ranged weapons in darktide are quite versatile in comparison that barley anyone fights an elite in melee and can soften up hordes quite well.
I vermintde you no way you can get away with that. Only āreal weaknessesā si carapace armor but suppression and stagger mechanics in this game, both ranged and melee are insane.
In vermintde with a shotgun i can clear infantry and zerkers if they are close enough, if armor pops up good luck without a crit. On darktide a shotgun can easily stagger crushers even at medium range.
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The careers that focused on range weapons almost always had near infinite ammo sustain. Waystalker can refund her ammo at any time by killing elites/specials with her F, bounty hunter + scrounger needs no further explanation, ranger veteranās ammo caches can refund up to 30% of his ammo and those drop off of any special kill, huntsman could get 10% of his ammo back per special kill + his F made him not use ammo + he had conservative shooter built into his kit, and Sienna could throw out powerful ranged attacks pretty much whenever she wanted, etc etc. No one has anywhere near the same ammo sustain in DT as those classes had in VT2.
Most of ranged weapons in darktide are quite versatile in comparison that barley anyone fights an elite in melee and can soften up hordes quite well.
I vermintde you no way you can get away with that.
The only enemy that couldnāt be very consistently killed in short order with ranged weapons was chaos warriors, which is similar to how crushers function in DT. Every single other enemy would get deleted by ranged weapons, and in VT2 the horde clear on those weapons was significantly better. Hagbane, swiftbow, blunderbuss, grudgeraker, griffonfoot pistols, beam staff, coruscation staff, conflagration staff, fireball staff, blahblah all of these weapons have extremely good horde clear, effectively infinite ammo with the right setup and could kill anything short of a chaos warrior very easily.
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Darktide is a lot more visceral and it gives every class ways of slaughtering rows or columns of enemies. The melee isnāt designed to get stuck in like VT and is a playstyle you should probably only experience on High Intensity modifiers.
If you really believe that itĀ“s skill-ceiling and not being busted, then youĀ“re a worse player than i thought or atleast has a way less gamesense when it comes to balancingā¦
Vet works pretty much the same like Huntsman with all the weakness-spots and crit feasts and their ultimate. But Huntsman is way better balanced due to the limited and balanced weapons, meanwhile being more squishy.
Vet on the other hand is pretty tanky for no real reason, gains more or less unlimited ressources while others rely on map-spawns or in case of Psyker āperilā. Vets do even scale hard with the weapon they pick and we all know that some weapons are busted, i donĀ“t even know if the powersword nerf was enough.
On top Vets have a wallhack, take less aggro if skilled and regenerate toughness while just staying out of combat.
The class is clearly overstated and scales even harder with broken weapons. The only involved skill is aiming and thatĀ“s pretty much only a thing on a handful of weapons when youĀ“re trying to take out e.g. a sniper. Also due to the more modern aim and autoweapons, itĀ“s way easier than being a huntsman with a bow or one-shot rifle in Vermintide.
And i meanā¦ how many poeple have been like ābut when can do it better / faster / whateverā in other class-related threads asking for buffs or reworks? Yes he can, but not because heĀ“s balanced, itĀ“s because, againā¦, heĀ“s busted and scales even harder with busted weapons.
A Psyker is way more balanced and needs more input, those has a way better skill-ceiling. Same counts for an Ogryn and even if i would say Zealot is as braindead as it has become in V2, even that class has a higher skill-ceiling due to its limitations especially on range.
I know a lot here just want to feel powerful. But that doesnĀ“t speak for a good balancing nor a good game in the end, and yesā¦ dozens of self-sustain and other stuff lasts in way less teamwork in a coop-game.
Given to your other claims it sounds more like you played way too long V2 with mods, which seemed to get ride of weapon-weaknesses, which actually balanced them, if not some class tweaks. Just a higher difficulty like cata 2/3 isnĀ“t even harder if you run it without any drawbacks and being prepared for everything once you mastered dodging.