Melee changes need to be seriously reconsidered (long post)

Yes, 3 careers had incredible self ammo sustain, all the others did not, try to spam hagbane with handmaiden and see how it goes…
Here in darktide no one needs to have self ammo sustain, there is ammo at evry corner. Ogryn, the least range focus career the game has to offer, has a “better trollhammer torpedo” in his arsenal and can spam it. Try if it’s possible to do it in vermintide.

So can psyker… and any other because they will pick ammo from the ground in the next room

That’s beside the point, again you can’t spam your gun or bow if you are not a ranged career with in build ammo sustain.

Yep and very bad at basically evrything else… opposite of what a versatile weapon is, that’s what i was saying. WIth a conflagration staff good luck killing a special or an elite, with a surge staff is another story.

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I’ve seen you use this Dark Souls vs Bloodborne example many times within this forum and it isn’t relevant in the context of ‘things Vermintide did better than Darktide’, as a matter of fact I feel a little perspective is much needed here. Before we begin, I’ll frame my view on the matter as thus: this isn’t a preferential discussion, as you so like to frame it, indeed these are changes that are well documented and can be proven to be irrefutable downgrades to the 'tide gaming experience - I suppose the subjectivity lies on how you interpret these ‘downgrades’ and whether or not you find the changes to be a meaningful divergence from Vermintide, however, I digress.

Nonetheless, to contrast your Dark Souls vs Bloodborne instance, the improvements made on to Bloodborne directly improved the Souls experience in meaningful ways. Unlike Fatshark, Fromsoft innovates upon its formula in order to alleviate the Souls experience to a higher form in respective to Dark Soul. Said innovations always inspire to move the formula forward in interesting ways facilitating a unique experience different from the prior game. From the first Dark Souls to Bloodborne, Sekiro, then Elden Ring. The key thing to note: Fromsoft excels at keeping the core experience familiar enough to its fans while also bringing about new changes that enhance the experience for old fans whilst inciting newcomers. It’s a great design. Monster Hunter employs this type of design as well - the main thing is not to alienate your fans.

In regards to Bloodborne, combat was made more fluid than Dark Soul through a variety of modifications to the Souls formula. Characters can perform fast dodging maneuvers within combat called quick stepping. Replenishing health was made faster, this served to not take the player out of the action, however HP gained back is slower. Weapon swapping was also heavily encouraged in order to execute parries or combos to break enemy guard. Additionally, switching weapons was fast, fluid, and didn’t impede on the flow of action. Another thing is that the player was incentivized to trade more aggressively with the enemy in order to get health back. This all meant that the game rewarded aggressive play over slow methodical play; in some cases it punished you if you were to play like Dark Soul, due to the simple fact that enemy attacks were faster and can easily overwhelm you, if you were not careful. The point in all of this is precisely that these changes didn’t impact the game in a negative way. The developer figured out interesting ways to balance out all of these new mechanics without impacting the player experience.

The Bloodborne vs Dark Souls form of argumentation is not applicable here because Darktide doesn’t really do anything that’s meaningful enough to diverge from Vermintide, besides being set in the 40k universe. We lost the in-depth melee system in exchange for a mediocre shooty shoot, that one can even argue isn’t as good as other fps games out in the market, and a slew of systems that don’t interact well with each other nor with the pre-existing melee framework.

Lastly, this specific quote stands out as baffling to me. As I mentioned, people have documented the downgrades from Vermintide to Darktide, more specifically the clunkiness associated with weapon swapping. See:

And:

It’s hard to take your comments on Darktide as genuine when you make these outrageous claims in defense of the game. I understand you like Darktide and I also understand that sometimes seeing someone criticize something you like isn’t great. However, it’s unbecoming seeing an individual suspend their critical thinking facilities to make silly claims in order to defend a game. Part of being a productive fan is to accept and acknowledge the faults of one’s favorite thing; not to hold it to some unattainable pedestal immune from criticism. This is the process of how we get better gaming experiences. This is how we improve. By poking at faults, acknowledging those faults, then giving feedback on how we can do better. Compromises then need to be made with that feedback in consideration while also managing to toe the line of design intent - whatever that may allude to.

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Having played VT2 some, but not much, I never experienced this “in-depth” melee system everyone keeps going on about, which is why I have always found it so weird. I was able to avoid getting hit and killing everything I was aiming for after only a handful of games and all I did was either spam lights or heavies. The ironic part for me is that I am doing basically 1-1 the same things in DT as I did in VT, the only different now is that I am no longer my walking block of armour with the Ironbreaker so I can’t emergency block forever.

You are also missing my point with the Bloodborne argument, purely because you are in the same boat as me with that game, but you might have missed what people were saying when it initially launched. Basically what you are seeing in OPs post is what a loooooot of people were saying about BB compared to DS when it first came out, again WHEN. IT. FIRST. CAME. OUT.

People were still twenty feet deep in DS mindset of hyper defensive approach to combat and infinite healing item (aka not consumable) that when they were now thrown into basically dex build on crack being the “slowest” the game can ever be, the game was basically trash in their eyes because their old methods of blocking and waiting for openings no longer worked, all because Fromsoft shifted the formula on its head. Much like what is happening with DT compared to VT, we are no longer meant to focus solely on melee combat, ranged is present too in a big way, thus the same methods no longer apply, even if the system was ported from the last game, which having played VT2 a few weeks prior to the CBT for Darktide dropping, I could not notice a real difference, but then again, I don’t have thousands of hours in the game so I don’t know all the minor things that probably add up.

There are also other significant factors that people need to take into consideration which are not exactly the fault of the melee system, but the fact that it is a live service game which is a major issue. This is obviously among many issues that come with the notion, but the biggest is the problems in relations to hitboxes and ranges. They are nowhere near in synch, as many a times a hit that shouldn’t have hit me, did hit me, or a shot I took counted for the effect of bloodsplatter and even wound, but no actual damage was caused. This is all mostly thanks to the game being a live service instead of peer-to-peer connections like VT was, which also adds to the issue.

In short, I am not ignoring flaws and problems of the game, I just simply try to take in all the reasons that could cause the problems, and also have the capacity to acknowledge that unmodded VT wasn’t exactly a difficult game once you figured out the exploits to use in melee with infinite dodging, and used the right weapons. I am also tired of all of these threads which basically boil down to “I want this game to be VT3 but in 40k.”

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There is no infinite dodging in VT2 and constantly repeating that statement is not gonna make it true either. Darktide did not invent the dodge count - VT2 did.

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Ah, you mean the thing that resets every 0,5 seconds, aka the length it takes to jump and come back down? You mean that limiter that definitely isn’t the same thing as basically infinite dodging since enemies often take longer than 0,5 seconds to hit you?

You haven’t played a single difficult mission in VT2.

Watching videos doesn’t count.

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Thank you for this contribution to the conversation. Feel free to point out how I am wrong though, is it not true that the game has a fixed timer that resets your effective dodging, that is 0,5 seconds, AND the only requirement for the timer to start ticking is simply not dodging, as long as you are not dodging, you recover your dodge capability. This means you are freely able to block, jump and swing away while that 0,5 is passing, and you can get right back to avoiding hits.

Yes and how does that refute my point exactly?
You are vulnerable while jumping against enemy attacks, because a) they track and b) you cannot meaningfully change direction.

Dodge has both a count and cooldown in VT2. It is by definition and in practice not infinite.
Does kiting work better with dodge jumping than in Darktide? Yes
Still does not support your argument though.

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I deeply and humbly apologise that I misstated that the game has infinite dodging, as you can hold your block button up for less than a second, stop the handful of attacks to ignore damage, and then go right back to dodging, my mistake. It is not infinite dodging if you can do it 99% of the time, so yes, I am wrong.

lol

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Did not want to go for the low blow. Thank you for taking that burden off of me. :man_bowing:

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I mean, it wasn’t that interesting of a game for me, I got Bardin to max level and did Chaos Wastes once that dropped some, finished all the campaigns a decent amount of times, it just wasn’t the Warhammer Fantasy experience I preferred due to me liking my big battles in Fantasy which that game didn’t offer sadly.

So yeah, I did say it because I have some experience with VT, but knowing that there is a difference between knowing how to play a game and knowing everything about the game, such as my time with Total War Warhammer, I am stating it mostly as a “you lot probably know this better than me due to having nearly hundred times my hours”.

No one still refuting my comment though which I do find odd. Going for more insulting comments rather than stating I am wrong with the way dodging works in the game and explaining how dodging does actually work in the game. Very odd indeed.

I thought there was meant to be 2 dodge cooldowns. The 0.5 second one between each dodge until you hit the weapon’s dodge limit, where you then start jumping or barely moving for a dodge, and the longer cooldown that reset the dodge limit. I recall infinite dodging was changed to that in the big stagger overhaul that was in theory designed entirely to eliminate inifnite dodging, but you know, spacing out dodges a little bit allow you to keep dodging anyway instead of furiously mashing dodge like before.

That’s because there is no point in arguing with someone who hasn’t actually experienced the game. You know how dodging works in theory, you do not know how the combat works in practice (on a high level). Saying stuff like this:

Tells us all we need to know.

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I could still use an explanation of this mythical in-depth melee system the game had because literally as far as I am aware, the game had Lights and Heavies for attacks, weapons themselves had their own patterns of attacks which could be comboed, you had block and push which had their own version of follow up attacks, and then dodging. All of this exists in Darktide, so I would very, very, very, very much want to know what in the world is locked out of the melee system of the game until you play Cata for a living?

The reason why I am going on and on about this is simple. I personally have none of those issues you listed in your original post, mostly because I see this as a simple shift in what your available resources are. Instead of having several, individually regenerating stats that refresh while you use others, DT very much focuses on resource conservation as a whole. Your stamina drains from sprinting and blocking, but not dodging, however it doesn’t regen either. Dodging obviously has the dodge cap, so you have those to keep an eye on. So where is the conservation coming from? Grenades and/or Class Abilities.

The attack waves in DT for melees outside of Endless Hordes (Or High-Activity Area as it is now known as, bleh) aren’t nearly as large as they were in VT from my recent memory, again it has been a bit since, due to the addition of the ranged combat focus in the game, thus you are not assaulted by nearly as many runts as you were in VT. You are instead assaulted by more variants of Specials and some Elites, which probably cause the biggest issues in melee due to the Poxwalkers and other trash mobs being significantly slower to attack like you mentioned initially compared to Slaves and Clanrats.

Notice how currently in DT every class has a tool to clear a path out of a tight spot. Veteran has Greandes, Zealot has the Stun Grenades, Ogryn has the Bull Charge and Psyker has Psykinetic Wrath. This is something you have omitted entirely from your initial criticism towards the current melee system, which is exactly what tells me that while I might not know anything about VT melee system on “high level”, it shows you don’t know how DTs work because you very much try to only utilise your skills you ported over from VT without adaptation.

Personally, I like the way DT does melee because it is mechanically more strategic that reactionary that it was in VT. You didn’t really need to track your own resources in that, as everything regenned when you weren’t using that defensive measure, thus you approached the matter similar to a fighting game. You never need to exactly worry when you might reach, say, your block limit, because if you played your class enough, you knew that you can take only X number of hits, so you block just one prior at most, then switch to the next measure, such as pushing or dodging, so it becomes similar to a fighting game.

DT on the other hand gives you a limited pool of resources, meaning you need to have a plan from start of the encounter to the end. Plan your route of kiting, make sure you don’t start throwing 'nades without thinking just because you see a big mass of bodies coming your way, don’t instantly use your abilities if you aren’t confident enough about your chances. Again, this makes it less about only reacting like you would in VT, you know you need to end the fight as quickly as you can before you run out of your resources, thus making it more strategic than reactionary as your focus shifts from one to the other.

I hope this makes the argument I am trying to make a bit more constructive and less sarcastic, which I must apologise for, because I started very rapidly sounding like a salty 5 year old. So to summarise, Darktide takes a different approach to the melee system we had in Vermintide, basically the downsides you mentioned give the situation a very bad light because you are totally ignoring an entire addition to the combat mechanic, aka the existence of 'nades and certain abilities, as VT had random bombs here and there but let’s be perfectly honest, they were just that, random, so you couldn’t by default rely on them to be your trump card out of a situation.

I hardly see a difference in combats for that reason, as they approach a similar situation with different goals in mind. In VT, melee is more about outplaying your opponent and widdling down the horde while in DT it is more about outlasting the horde as you try to find yourself a narrow corridor to funnel the enemy through, or just try to take them out as quickly as you can before you do run out of resources. In other words, different strokes for different folks.

What I would like to see first before any major changes are done is simply refinement. First of all they need to fix the netcode before they start fiddling with mechanics because that is the biggest issue right now, Ragers being able to swing at you from double the length of their melee weapon is a bit daft. Tweaking and balancing of things, stuff like that. Personally, I would like to avoid to have VTs melee system ported over because it simply makes the combat, again, more about being hyper conservative and slowly chipping the enemy down with reactionary moves instead of having to plan the whole process and improvise on the fly when things go south.

Let me break it down for you then.
It is true Darktide and Vermintide 2 take a different approuch to the genre, but it is in no way as you describe:

Darktide due to the heavy involvement of ranged threats is already a lot more attrition and defensive minded, but aspects like nerfs to mobility and self-sustain have exacerbated the issue.
Darktide does not exactly lend itself to an aggressive gameplan at the moment and involves a lot more stand-offs that break the pace through the map.

Vermintide 2 on the other hand rewards you for being aggressive and keeping pace. The higher amount of mobility, self-sustain, more flexible careers, instant weapon swap and temporary hp perfectly synergize to facillitate an aggressive style of play, that scales into all levels of difficulty and feels incredibly fluid and responsive.

The reason why you do not see much of an issue with the differences in melee systems, is that you do not - I assume - dislike the higher amount of attrition in Darktide. If you put yourself into the shoes of someone, that likes to be aggressive and wants being aggressive to be a paramount necessity, then it becomes fairly easy to see why a lot of the changes between games conflict with that.

A bit about me - I don’t want Darktide to be Vermintide 2 and it won’t be, because ranged enemies shift threat priority a whole lot.
Still I like making aggressive pushes from time to time and the game simply does not want that to be a thing at all.
There are different reasons for why being aggressive doesn’t work in Darktide all that well

  • toughness doesn’t protect all that much
  • resources canibalize one another (sprinting, stamina, dodge)
  • movement feels incoherent between weapons, as dodge has a different cd per weapon, but there is no ui to indicate when your dodge is up in combat
  • stun/chain stun through ranged fire

Imho you could probably implement change everything of the above and it would still not feel like Vermintide 2.

If I were to change one thing out of the above it would be to display dodge Ui, cause even if you like the timings, not knowing exactly when your dodge is up is dumb. Imagine not kowing when you have toughness or not.

If I were to make two changes it would be the above and to eliminate ranged stun. Having a group of scab stalkers run around the corner, which all do not swap to melee - even though the tutorial and the design intent proclaimed by the devs say they should - and instead shoot and thereby chain-stun you in place is more than annoying. With this in place you can never be aggressive in this game.

I’d still be in favor of dodge not reseting stamina, as I like moblity and dodging still does not make you immune to ranged fire, but the above are more important to me. Changes to toughness are generally more complicated so I’ll leave that to another time.

Why is Vermintide 2’s melee better or why do people prefer it?
Scalability, responsiveness, fluidness and consistency.
Darktide accomplishes neither of those to the same degree as VT2. Imo it could except for maybe scalability, because range makes things difficult.

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First off, I very much appreciate your response to me. Reading it left me with a good impression. You kept it civil and with nuance - thanks. More importantly you didn’t lower yourself to petty forms of dialogue to make a point. With that said, there’s a couple of things that I’d like to address in which I feel you’re woefully incorrect on:

Respectfully, this isn’t true. Vermintide’s melee system had multiple things going for it besides spamming light/heavy attacks. For starters it had: combos, ability to chain different attacks, weapon swapping, cancelling animations, parrying, ability to attack or hold a charge attack while dodging, chaining ranged attacks with melee attacks, and so on. These are just the things that came to mind. There’s more to list and talk about, but It’d be too exhausting for me to go over every nuance of the melee, however, that isn’t the point; the point is precisely that the melee system is indeed more involved than spamming left click.

However, that’s just speaking in general terms. From my personal experience I can attest to being able to pull off interesting combos. My favorite being the swap from primary melee to Executioner Sword:

As you can see I’m doing more than just spamming the left click. I’m cancelling animations, quickly swapping, then aiming for headshot. In practice it’s quite fluid to operate. Becomes essential when dealing with high value elites. I keep learning new things whenever I play Vermintide which force me to improve on my gameplay, it’s quite fun to me. I have over one thousand hours and that’s because of how much I enjoyed the gameplay.

To bring it back on topic. In higher difficulties the game encourages you to master the intricacies of the melee system. The game even rewards you doing so as you become more proficient with reacting to high value targets and dispatching threats from afar. Spamming the left click button probably only works on lower difficulties.

Right, let me make myself clear then: in Darktide we gained a slew of mechanics that either don’t work with each other nor do anything meaningful to the 'tide game design. So, sprint, first it doesn’t do as advertised which is to mitigate damage, second it doesn’t add anything of value to the game - you can’t out sprint a horde, what’s the point. Coherency, I think you know my stance on this (you can read my ‘pontification’ on it here); it ultimately doesn’t work with this type of game. A banal cover system, it’s a pop-a-mole regression. Can not forget Sliding either; it’s too hard to pull off and when you do, the effect is minimal. Then there’s Toughness which has many problems associated with its implementation that I don’t even know where to begin. Of course we shan’t forget the reworked stamina system that serves to restrict rather than empower the player. Lastly the over-emphasis on ranged ended up being a detriment , in my opinion.

Contrast this to Bloodborne where the additions Fromsoft introduced to the game ended up being innovative, fresh, and exciting. Being able to quick step, for example, added a whole range of options in how you approach bosses and enemies - it also wasn’t stupid hard to execute. Using ranged weaponry to break enemy guard or parry was also an exciting thing to perform. There was also weapon transformations which added some much needed variety to the combat. I can go on.

Difference from Fatshark and Fromsoft. Is that Fromsoft grabbed the design of Dark Soul and ‘innovated’ upon it. I have yet to play a game from them that feels like a regression. Even their recent game, Elden Ring, tries to add new things to the formula by adding a dedicated jump button and mount fighting.

It’s interesting that you say that because I didn’t feel any of that. Darktide didn’t compare to my Gold Standard of FPS - that being F.E.A.R - and the melee combat felt like a regression to Vermintide. The only thing it had is the 40k paint job.

As for this comment I feel the desire to correct you on this. Have you played above champion difficulty, no this isn’t a snide remark, the game is very much more involved than spamming left click on the higher difficulties. For infinite dodging I don’t feel you’re right on this either. If you dodge for too much you get lowered to a slow dodge then need to wait at least a second or so before you can do long dodges again. In practical terms it simply means you have to manage your dodges appropriately when avoiding a horde or elite enemies. Dodging too much can actually hurt you in those moments.

All in all. I respect you enjoying Darktide. All the more power to you.

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It’s a little off-topic, but I remember playing hours and hours of melee only F.E.A.R multiplayer. Somehow despite only effectively have 4 melee attacks (punches, slide kick, flying jump kick, weapon bash) it was a lot of fun to play with due to the speed and counter-play potential.

Yeppers. That’s why it’s my Gold Standard when it comes to assessing new First Person Shooters. Anyone who calls themselves an FPS fan needs to play F.E.A.R at least once to see how good gunplay feels. Unrelated rant but the Slide in that game was also way better than Darktide. When you slide in F.E.A.R it’s long and gives you some much needed mobility to reposition. When you slide in Darktide it feels like a short little push that does nothing.

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Like it was said in an other thread, dont make DT like VT, if i would like to play VT i stay on VT, simple as that.
I feel the combat system as it is really great, it maybe needs some tweaks but i cant arg about cause for me it’s ok.
I’v been great player and tester on VT and VT2 and DT is a nice improvment in term of gameplay (combat core, for many other things it’s an other story)
So please stop comparing thos games, it’s sad, envolve, discovre a new way to play.