Personally i really like that the melee combat got mixed up a bit from Vermintide.
For me most of the things you critisize are changes that i personally welcome.
Vermintide melee combat did already almost run on autopilot for me.
In Darktide I have the feeling I have to pay more attention to what my enemys are actually doing.
You also have to keep in mind that the harder it is to deal with threats by yourself the more important teamplay and characterspecialisation becomes, which I am a huge fan of.
I can understand that they might make it more Vermintide like if many complain about the current system but I really hope it will keep some distinct differences.
If only I could upvote you more than once. The stamina economy is in such a bad state with the added drain of sprinting eating into it, and the regen pausing while dodging, and lack of sufficient block cost reduction.
SOOOOO much hit trading in this, its a shame. Getting hit in VT2 was something I absolutely strived to avoid unless I had no choice and had to make a calculated decision (to swap to ranged and shoot a special for example).
I naturally prefer faster weapons, and with stam the way it is, this only reinforced wanting more raw mobility, but they keep nerfing the nimble weapons. Seems the devs seem to really want power swords and eviscerators alpha strike cleaving hordes (lest you get hit traded too much). Or brutal momentum blessing on combat axes or something of that ilk. Idk, just feels so much less elegant and clunky and really limits clutching in this game (not even getting into the ranged enemy puzzle aspect).
And im not sure why melee has been treated this way? Itâs already the âharder pathâ than say, chaining veteran ults via lvl 30 talents and clearing everything with a bolter or kantrael mk12. Or zealots just flamethrowering hordes. Im not saying nerf ranged weapons, just not sure why the melee aspect was neglected/nerfed/designed in this way given how effective ranged weapons are.
Better yet - in VT2, due to how THP synergized with the melee gameplay, hit-trading was actually a tactical decision to employ from time to time for high value targets. In Darktide you want to mitigate it as much as possible and yet it still occurs more frequently, since mobility is seemingly not intended. Again my best guess is, FS really wants to force you to clump together with your mates and all the teamplay pastors will probably use this as a vehicle to dunk on people, if they feel itâs limiting. A truly sad state of affairsâŚ
Absolutely. With THP you could âspend itâ to give you an âoutâ in a situation. And now getting hit is just always a bad idea, especially with how bad getting staggered is hoo boy (both ranged and melee).
I get they wanted this to be more âteamwork orientedâ but I think having the mechanics so harshly enforce that paradigm (as opposed to a more organic enforcement based on strategy/tactics i.e. donât get split cause then youâll die) was not the best idea. Donât want to get started on a separate discussion about Toughness regeneration / last man standing / clutching lol.
They already changed the dodge-timings to be even on the weapons and changed the toughness system to tank the first it while being on 100%.
The melee feels pretty even to V2 tbh and the toughness is 100 times better than the broken thp. It gives coop actually more meaning and it can´t be hard abused like sitting with a zealot on 10HP to get the buffs meanwhile being fulllife with thp.
Also it´s been a while since OP has written it down, but i can´t agree on the âenemies have better tracking etcâŚâ. Actually maulers and crushers don´t even near as iceskate as hard as CW´s and mauler do in V2. Berzerks (rager) can be dodged way easier aswell. Dunno if it´s just a performance issue to them or got fixed meanwhile. But i didn´t had issues in that case in the beta aswell.
They added a âStagger Poolâ and âStagger Countâ mechanics to DT that is unique from VT2 (this comes courtesy of a recent J_Sat video) and they are a great addition in my opinion. I am all for innovating new mechanics⌠however, my complaint as well as others is they actually have regressed here to older VT2 mechanics that have since been smoothed over and currently work very well.
I am curious to know what you like about the current melee combat being better. I was/am always very cognizant (and comfortable) with enemy attack patterns in VT2 as a function of play time, something I am sure I will get to in DT also. But that doesnât change the fact you can just get checkmated very easily in DT with situations where you cant dodge/block/push or take any other actions to get you out of a situation. Having melee mechanics that make you helpless without a teammate nearby donât really feel fun to be honest, particularly when the âsolutionâ to rager/mauler/horde aggro seems to be âflamethrowerâ or âvet grenade spamâ. Iâm not even talking about running off on your own to be a âhallway heroâ, nor am I advocating that. Itâs just on Damnation, you donât always get the luxury of help. When specials, a boss, elites and a horde are bearing down on you, every person has to act decisively and that doesnât always mean everyone working on the same problem. Hell, a mutant could chuck you to the other side of the room with ragers and a horde between you and your friends. What are your options then? Straight up die?
I guess my point is that everyone facing the same direction, fighting the same enemie,s with all specials handled by veterans is an ideal state. The AI director likes to turn that on itâs head very often, at which point an individuals ability to cope with a situation becomes paramount (at least till party cohesion can be reformed), and the current melee mechanics make dealing with this issue very challenging (and not in a fun way, in a âmy tools donât workâ way).
This doesnât even get to Last Man Standing or last 2 players standing, and how itâs virtually always a game over unless your team is respawned close or you get lucky moving forward. For me, saving a run (or my friends saving a run) was always such an awesome feeling and really got everyone pumped up. Now, itâs just kind of a foregone conclusion that the run is over.
Skating and tracking arenât the same thing. Sure Maulers and Berserkers skate in VT2, but that is only in relation to positioning. The tracking in Darktide is indeed longer. The effective dodge window is noticably smaller and more importantly later during the attack animation.
Hasnât it ever occured to you even once that, that might have been the way, it was supposed to be played?
With how much more mobility and kite-ability VT2 offers - not even close.
Thp wasnât broken it just scaled well with difficulty, which is something that cannot be said about toughness atm unfortunately. It was literally only broken on Flamesword and Shields, which is something the community by and large agreed upon.
If you are of the opinion, that you need to gimp playersâ self sustain, because otherwise there is no cooperation, then you really just played on a difficulty, that was distinctly below your level. Furthermore giving players some self sustain like VT2 did, makes the game way more QP-friendly, which is likely where 90% of players spend their time and not much voice comms are happening.
Thp wasn´t even close as strong in the beginning away from the broken ranged meta. So no⌠i highly doubt it was the first intention that the Zealot was meant to be undying while holding a flail or something similar with cleave. The passive was probably more an emergency exit until all ppl cried âbuff pleaseâ etc⌠and the temp hp changes have become a thing.
That it has been an intended mechanic on Bardin or Sienna with the heat-management⌠that´s something i can agree on, but not the Zealot.
You may enlighten me what you actually meanâŚ
Dodging does pretty much the same to me as much as i still can hit / hit / hit / push and repeat the stuff on zealot. On Psyker i don´t even need that much pushes due to the weapon.
Of course it´s somewhat different if you´ve played with some class talents, wider dodge ranges, better block angles and stuff. Attack speed and movement speed did a lot to, but overall?
The core is the same and since DT is also way more range depended, such a pure focus on melee is not needed. (Even if i would be a fan of a melee only modifier.)
Of course kiting might be harder here too with ranges in your back, but otherwise i don´t see much of an issue unless it´s map-related or up to the lack of movement ultimates.
Overall the melee gameplay feels way more precise to me, there is less ice-skating, less hyperskating and there are less random-hits from the second line than in V2. Imo i´ve way more issues with weapon changes sometimes cause of inputlags or something idk.
Another thing where the opinions drift in different directions i guess. Since the âremakeâ thp has been way too easy to gain and to maintain, which made one or another character really really strongâŚ
That it has been a thing on glas cannons on legend / cata , alright⌠that´s something i can live with, but tanks that gain it so easy? And on top a broken staff, a super strong ultimate (GK) on top or permabuffed sitting on dozens of attack speed? It´s a bit much if those tanks / bruiser are strong af and pretty much undying due to nearly unlimited health.
It should´ve been limited at some point.
I don´t think that you´ve to gimp something, i just say it gives coop more meaning.
Any good player was able to carry runs in Vermintide solo. A lot did even nothing else but playing solo with bots. What´s the point to play a coop-game, when the only fear are disablers you can learn to dodge in 9 of 10 cases? (Of course it might not fit the majority that isn´t that good at melee.)
Toughness does actually a great job and it´s way better usable to balance the classes in their tankyness than thp would ever be. Also it saves you from atleast 1 random melee hit, meanwhile granting damage reduction for everything left.
So how is that no self-sustain? You still need to get hit a bunch of times. It´s also not impossible to safe runs solo.
Thp was just busted giving out pretty much for free due to kills or stagger effects you did all day long anyway.
Also toughness is always present. Yeah it´s somewhat harder to gain back, but it does its job to stop the first impacts melee and ranged-based. So far againâŚit´s way better balanced across the board than thp will ever be. The self-sustain isn´t gimped, it does the job its supposed to do. It´s just not as braindead that you can freely counterheal incoming damage by spamming LMB meanwhile watching your grey bar going up and downâŚ
I started playing VT2 post WOM so forgive me, that I had to do some research on this, because you keep throwing around these âtemp hpâ changes.
So from what I could gather THp talents were - prior to WOM - bound to the class to where Iron Breaker always had THP on stagger and a Shade on kill.
The reason why this was changed, is that surprise surprise this heavily limits which of the available weapons synergize with the classâ kit, effectively turn using a 1h axe on an ironbreaker into a liability. In light of that - introducing THP talents so that people had some agency over that mechanic to complement their weapon choice is undisputably a good thing. If that is what you mean, then you are just flat out wrong.
Furthermore even without choice - even back then Zealot had access to an aresenal of weapons, which would have allowed him to make use of his built-in thp talent with one weapon or the other.
First of all there are just way more weapons in Darktide compared to VT2, where the dodge just feels incredibly lacking distance-wise.
Then it is harder to chain dodges as the timing is later - couldnât find the exact number, but it distinctly messes with my muscle memory.
After using up your effective dodge count, it takes longer to refresh.
The worst offender here though, is that your stamina regeneration gets blocked during dodges, which gets even worse since blocking attacks stuns you.
This means having to block one attack usually results in having to block multiple hits and getting chain-stunned. Since getting all your stamina drained isnât an option, youâll of course want to dodge so your stamina can regenerate, but hold up it doesnât.
This dilemma creates an excessive need to always dodge, because blocking is too dangerous - even pushing is edging you ever so closer to guard break - and stamina a resource being cannibalised on by almost every combat system.
Having to always dodge coupled with the the above mentioned nerfs to dodge, you get a situation where your effective mobility is radically worse in light of how high the demand for it is.
Well we are gimping self-sustain, because apart from veteran nobody regenerates toughness outside of combat to any degree, which is kinda essential for self-sustain if you ask me considering that three shots on damnation eliminate your toughness wholesale.
This might be a matter of taste, but I donât need to artificially add âmeaningâ to coop. The combined enemy assault exceeding the aggro cap of any single player to me is enough reason for coop gameplay. I do not need to be lead around like a horse with blinds on.
Playing together with other people is simply more fun? Most people are extroverts?
Being able to dodge disablers after sufficient practice is a good thing. A huge chunk of the longterm motivation for people playing these gameâs is the fact that you can master their mechanics. Disablers that just do not care about learnable behavior do not really speak to that quality.
This is just opinion and not supported by anything you say here.
And THP let you tactically hit trade for high value targets and then heal back up (aka regenerate your toughness if you catch my drift) while mitigating damage - your point?
Toughness by and large being bound to staying with your group is not self-sustain.
There is no argument for you here.
Yes - in Vermintide 2 I also need to get hit a bunch of times⌠again your point?
Well if you think this a positive, then all power to you. I for one actually value individuals given the opportunity to display skill that is not predecated on being assisted by someone else at every single step. I believe thatâs what they call having choices and freedom of player expression, but I digress.
No it was not given out for free. It was given for you using your weapon in a way that syngergized with the talent picked. Furthermore the outcome rarely exceeded the effort put in outside of Flamesword and Shields as Iâve already mentioned in the post you are hereby responding to.
Unless it isnât? - your point?
No it is only harder to gain back in situations, where you would profit from self-sustain, but at least this is a tangible statement.
Again this is raw opinion and is about as precise of a statement like:
Person A: âRain is beneficialâ
Person B: âFor what?â
Person A: ââŚWell it is beneficialâ
Person B:
Iâve elduded to this point being objectively falsifyable above already, but just to keep track.
Having the freedom to hit trade and deciding to do so is not brain dead to me, it only facillitates aggressive and offensive-minded gameplay instead of sheer attrition, which is Darktide for the most part. You can say you prefer attrition to intensity/aggressiveness or very strict roles to flexibility, but neither of those actually mean anything pertaining to balancing as you presume.
I appreciate you having the energy to go back and forth with this troll on here and the psyker thread. Thanks for saying what needs to be said. I get a migraine everytime I read his responses.
I donât really think heâs a troll though just someone with a very different opinion. Like it is possible for someone to prefer inflexibility and attrition - not that I fall under that category - but he keeps framing his opinion as if it was an objective counter argument again and again, which is what I take issue with.
There was way more. And in the first case it got changed because classes like e.g. Sienna had thp on range. That introduced a range-meta with unlimited ammo and health. On top even stagger with the wigglemancer (just google that if you want, it was broken af and ppl defended it) , meanwhile melee thp was pretty much not existent.
That´s why it got changed.
Never said it´s a bad thing, it just has become broken. It was first broken while it was a thing on range-weapons, then it got broken, because it scales way too much with one or another weapon and is making tanks even stronger and tankier than before.
As i´ve said, it´s a good thing against the random hit or an unlucky overhead especially on squishy chars, but it should´ve been locked at some point on tanky classes.
Haven´t tested all weapons, but the dodge-distance seems to scale with mobility. Also they already changed the weapons to have the same dodge-timing. If i jump into V2 on the axe it feels actually even worse, but might be a thing on something like dual-dagger or so yes.
I think it´s fine for balancing to make more use of âmore stamina / more regenerationâ - curios.
Dunno about you block issues or what weapns you play tbh. I don´t have much issues and don´t even block often, even 1% is enough for a short push and reposition. The knife might be something different due to missing stagger effects yes.
Tbh i would actually like to see how you play. Melee feels way easier here to me especially since issues like hyperstacking / iceskating are way less and it´s way more accurate. On top there are less elites and only bulwarks can be pretty disgusting to play against.
â Might be even be something performance / connection - related since we´ve dedicated servers. Someone already tried it with the hound dodge-window, or as i´ve said i´ve sometimes input-issues while changing the weapons. â
I think it´s actually better to give it more meaning and somewhere based to get it back on class-abilities or something which actually fits the class⌠Of course some might need some tweaks or it should also scale with extra stamina from curious.
I get your point, but that´s not the case for everyone especially playing random. Such a system prevents more from rushers and benefits those who play coop anyway. Thp was more like âMy kills, my kills! Go away!â (What was actually another reason why Thp on stagger got better introduced and hardbuffed to be kinda broken on shields etcâŚ)
Might be a thing for premades, but randoms? The most are silent, ignore major stuff, run solo left / right, use medpacks for themselves etc⌠, meanwhile moaning about others ingame or the voicechat. A lot have already asked for private lobbies and better bots and all that was not better in Vermintide.
Of course it´s a great thing that you clearly get rewarded for mastering the game mechanics like dodging. But if you sit on a very strong defense on top, which has nothing to do with skill?! DunnoâŚ
FS is able to balance the classes way better with the current system in their defense and also force classes in more specific roles due to its regeneration. And they already did it here since every class has a different amount of toughness and gain it back through class skills or what fits the class the most.
Thp was not balanced. They just introduced stuff like âon kill / on staggerâ to support the gameplay of different weapons. It doesn´t fit the classes and its not capped since it´s just a 2nd health bar. So obviously the guys with the most overall health benefits the most.
That it is temporary is pretty much their only balancing-aspect.
Of course the core-idea from both is the same. Allow hit-trading prevent from random hits. In the first instance toughness is even superior since it doesn´t damage your healthbar. But again, it´s way better balanceable and class-related than temphealth will ever be. (Unless they actually balance it to scale with weapons and cap it aswell.)
It´s also way better implemented than just LMB spam and you shouldn´t forget that it matches well together with the range-gameplay.
Yes there are some weapons superior, but overall it´s more like âpick high cleave and enjoy dozens of thp with on killâ or âpick high staggerâ⌠or crit?
Said it above⌠it´s absolutely weapon-depended, but not even balanced through the weapons. Just pick the zealot example where you clearly cutted yourself by e.g. picking an axe over a flail. This is not the case with toughness.
You still have the freedom to hittrade even if it´s not right at 100%. There are enough medpacks / stations somewhere to tank one or another hit from health aswell. Don´t forget the damage-reductionâŚ
I´m not here to change your opinion. But tbh⌠at some point you should actually see the benefits of toughness and why it fits the mix of melee- and range-gameplay better and offers a better class-balancing⌠If not then you may can explain what´s the actually issue? (Away from low health zealot abusing thp and tanks being even more tankierâŚ)
The most are here are just so used to Vermintide that they clearly don´t want to see one or another benefit of a system. Is it perfect? No⌠there are pros and cons. But there are also pros and cons in Vermintide.
Also atleast i try to stay objective and write nothing else down than the intention behind a design and its pros / cons. The most guys just starting to moan and exeggerate how aweful everything is without even thinking about it. And if i´ve a clear own opinion, i normally use such obvious phrases like âIn my opinionâŚâ, âFor me it´sâŚâ, âI thinkâŚâ etcâŚ
It´s not my problem that half the ppl tunnelvision and are not even able to clearly say what´s wrong but calling it âa hot messâ. They want Vermintide or something better, but don´t even see that some systems are a good base for something better meanwhile advising to a game that is older than the developing-time of Darktide and had the same or even more issues at launch!
Argh the slab sheild as ogryn hoping to have a kruber-esk game play with a big ogre but this delay makes me turn to the other weapons⌠which is a shame as the sheild vs gun fire is kinda essential. Trying to build a revive class as ogryn with high stamina build but another good point about getting locked out of reviving quickly in a horde due to stamina not replenishing quickly that sheild could do with being detachable and revive with it in special mode
In short, I have the feeling that I have to be more thoughtfull when to use my resources (dodges/pushes/block/etc).
In Vermintide the fight already was working on autopilot for me. I didnât really react that much to what my enemy was doing anymore. It was a rythm of push, dodge, attack. Often i dodge unneccesarilly often or pushed even if I didnât have to simply because those resources were plenty available, running out of them wasnât that punishing and often you could even hit trade because of temp HP. So less âressourcesâ, no temp HP and bigger punishment for missmanaging your ressources are the things that i prefer in Darktide.
Walking into DT my old habbits suddenly donât work anymore. I have to pay more attention to my enemys. Is my dodge actually neccessary? Do i really need to push here? DT gives me a new challenge and i have to relearn the game and im very happy about that. I think its great its not just more Vermintide. I donât say the fight system is better as that is just a subjectiv opinion anyway. But its different and to me still feels fair. I really needed a change from Vermintide.
