Make More Events Like Convocation (Cataclysm)

[waterbottle]

Gonna chime in here, there’s a huge difference in my completion rate in public games of Convocation/Enchanter/Old Haunts compared to the rest of the maps. I do think Convo is overtuned currently for the Cata playerbase, but I enjoy the challenge. I feel it’s winnable, unlike Enchanter’s. For the rest of the maps, they could do with some tuning up, especially events where you can kite out the challenges, e.g. Dark Omens.

[Sleezy]

@waterbottle

Enchanter’s.

I do feel like there may need to be an adjustment to the final phase of the event in Enchanter’s. It can be really difficult in a very unfun way if you don’t have a class that can deal dmg to nurg. Perhaps a good change would be to make him go into his final phase at like 15-20% instead of at 30%, just to reduce the amount of damage you need to deal in that phase.

[zaru]

I’d already be content if the attacks that throw you didn’t remove your block until you land, and if players could respawn somewhere that’s not literally a periodic death circle guaranteeing that either the reviver or the revived will take damage.

[Sleezy]

Yeah or if the knockback worked properly and you didn’t get stuck in the air for 10 seconds.

[Incandescent]

not flexing here but I for the life of me have never had much trouble with this map, even with twitch mode (no blessings) active. It’s definitely harder than most events but it seems like it’s in a good place from my experiences with it

Either the RNG variance of the event is extreme and I’m a lucky lad or there’s something else going on

[Sleezy]

@Incandescent

Either the RNG variance of the event is extreme and I’m a lucky lad or there’s something else going on

Yeah I’m not sure either. I’m seeing a lot of people that get spawns I’ve never seen, apparently. I think it could have something to do with killing the waves as they come in. I’m not sure if waves stop with progress or if they are on a timer or some combination thereof.

[BongoSkaggs]

There’s a couple of major things that play into it, I think.

First off is that specials are really hard to spot in a lot of places. Sometimes due to the color scheme, sometimes due to the fact that specials like to occupy spaces that it doesn’t look like they should. The former can easily be seen when trying to trace stormer casting & globe throwing particle effects and the latter in those times stormers like to stand in mid-air

Secondly, many players seem to fear dropping down for one reason or another. The drive to stay in the circle filling the bar at all costs is very real. Combine that with how Vermintide rarely ‘restricts’ player movement for long periods of time outside of the Convo finale and you can see that it might cause a lot of confusion and poor decision making.

Idle musing, I wonder if maybe it would be a good idea if every time a sorcerer exploded it knocked everyone out of the circle and to the back wall. Would that encourage people to both stick together (so they don’t get knocked into separate corners of the room and die) and not get overrun on the platform?

[Velsix]

@Sleezy

Event starts at 24:49.

Hey I got linked! Neat. Can I just take this moment to say that this event was easier for this build than Empire In Flame’s event was? The number of attempts EiF took has scarred me.

The event can build up too much imo. Other than that, I agree that other events should be made more difficult overall, but carefully.

There’s also more to this than just the events themselves. EiF’s end event is a decent example of this. While it could use a few more specials and maybe the occasional CW spawn, a full horde of Marauders with shielded Marauders mixed in is a significant threat on its own… Until something like a shotgun or any form of aoe damage comes into play, making it all irrelevant, or a Handmaiden aura making the Marauders constantly staggered from push spam, etc.

Fort Brach – Gas rats often kill the entire horde for the team anyway. Circle kiting the area is too easy because of how much friendly fire Globadiers do. It should be lessened. This is true for Globadiers outside of events as well, but reducing their ff dmg will still make events more difficult. Same goes for Blighstormers, and I often find Warpfire Throwers provide more cc for the team than they deal damage.

For the event elements themselves however:

• Hunger in the Dark – You can literally ignore the boss. Lol. There’s nothing that makes it difficult to ring the bell either, no pressure. Spawns are too predictable.
• Garden of Moor – Part of the issue is the design. Way too many easily abusable dropdowns for free dps that no amount of enemies can really fix. Then there’s the lack of pressure to break the chains, meaning players can take their time.
• Righteous Stand – Does the boss even show up anymore here? I’ve had a lot of games where it makes a sound announcing itself yet doesn’t appear.
• Festering Ground – There’s nothing here. No unique elements except several berserkers after destroying the 2nd clump of buboes.
• I’m also going to take this moment to say that Nurgloth’s fight is weirdly designed. I don’t get why they didn’t just give Nurgloth super high damage resistance instead of giving it a berserker armour class. Shotguns dealing a lot of damage to it is odd. I like the idea of a tanky boss, but the terrain seems to cause very iffy running attacks from Marauders. Nurgloth’s attack pattern in the final phase seems inconsistent. I just true soloed the fight as WHC and still haven’t figured out how to bait the stationary knockback attack that can be dodged instead of the running knockback attack that is very difficult to dodge (imo). Also, at the dropdown after killing Nurgloth there’s a lever that is pulled to open the first set of bars. The Skaven that spawn there can’t move past these bars. They just stand on the other side staring. Very odd.

I could list more but I’ll stop there for now.

@Throne_of_Rats

The spear&shield is a trap.

I disagree. It’s a good weapon with decent dps. It handles mixed hordes and elites better than the Spear does, which isn’t valued on modded because of things like Fireball spam will deal with mixed threats anyway thanks to the cc it provides (that’s not the Spear and Shield’s fault though). It’s only really lower raw horde dps. Less dodge range but a far better movement curve. It’s run of the few weapons Kerillian has that doesn’t have to block for extended periods of time when fighting mixed hordes (which is funny considering it’s a shield) while being able to attack specific targets.

@Throne_of_Rats

It’s enough to roll your face over the keyboard with him and victory is achieved. And none of them will be operating alone, but rather as a group.

This implies that it’s the players’ capabilities that are the issue, rather than the events, does it not? At least for some careers. It’s another part of the issue I think. There are certainly some things that are outliers like MWP RV and Shade Cloak of Mists + Vanish.

@Frostysir

The only weapons she has that can chew through chaos warriors is dual daggers and the spear&shield, nothing else. Glaive is good in theory but its too vulnerable to surrounding enemies during heavies which makes it bad for that event.

Yeah pretty much. Kerillian’s other weapons lack reach or just don’t have high super armour dps even at 100% headshots (sadly that is the case for the Spear). Most of the time Kerillian’s weapons rely on things like ults to deal specific target damage during a mixed horde situation, while someone like WHC with the Rapier and 40% attack speed/Charmed Life can far more safely throw out partial charged attacks and fish for crits with lights.

Wait, sorry. Sorry. I mean “Elf is op, nerf elf again pls”. There we go, that fits in nicely with the hivemind.

@Throne_of_Rats

Which ties into the point that I was making further down the post. You don’t have to clear everything on your own. That’s why you have 3 other people around you. Also I can list plenty of other weapons that deal just fine with CWs: sword&dagger, 1h axe (on handmaiden specifically), 1h sword (this assuming you land headshots).

The 1h Sword on Kerillian has high bodyshot damage on heavies though, not that this compensates for its below average reach and surprisingly slow push attack. The 1h Axe also has low reach, making it somewhat poor for landing heavies on CWs because how slow they are to move out of a horde to attack the player. Doesn’t at all compare to the ease of which WHC will poke, poke poke and poke again, especially when one considers how much crit damage the Rapier’s heavies do to superarmour on bodyshot. Not even Dual Daggers match that level of opportunity-centric dps. Yet no one wanted the Rapier nerfed, nor Killing Shot changed at all.

@Throne_of_Rats

This is alleviated by people fighting together. You severely underestimate what four players can withstand when they are next to each other, regardless of what they’re bringing to the game. Convo’s waves are nothing.

People fighting together is the most broken thing in the game. It’s completely overpowered. I can’t believe you’d recommend such a cheesy strat.

@Frostysir

WHC has the perk of being able to kinda instantly wipe out groups of stormvermin in melee on his own though, not many can do that. And he was far from slow when dealing with chaos warriors.

Shade, GK, Huntsmen, RV (really any Bardin with MWP tbh) & BW can also do this but I do agree that it’s by no means a common capability.

@Frostysir

Having the ability to dish out hundreds if not thousands worth of damage in a minute is not the same as having the opportunity to do so and is the biggest failing point of both the axe and sword. Shield meanwhile can staggerlock everything infront while still doing damage.

Control.

It’s also reach, speed and block cancelling. The Spear for example doesn’t block cancel well on light 2.

This is why I’ll (going out on a limb here I suppose) out dps any Shade as WHC with the Rapier unless they bring Cloak of Mists and Vanish. Because I’ll rarely if ever have to stop attacking even on modded content and can almost always hit a specific target in the mid ranks of a horde. Reach and speed. I don’t see how elf weapons are that op outside of Shade with Cloak of Mists. Dual Swords chain heavy attacks poorly (light > heavy seems to have way less delay between attacks than heavy chaining), Glaive is one trick etc. Lots of weird quirks for technically high dps potential that I rarely see being reached.

[Frostysir]

@Velsix

The 1h Sword on Kerillian has high bodyshot damage on heavies though, not that this compensates for its below average reach and surprisingly slow push attack. The 1h Axe also has low reach, making it somewhat poor for landing heavies on CWs because how slow they are to move out of a horde to attack the player. Doesn’t at all compare to the ease of which WHC will poke, poke poke and poke again, especially when one considers how much crit damage the Rapier’s heavies do to superarmour on bodyshot. Not even Dual Daggers match that level of opportunity-centric dps. Yet no one wanted the Rapier nerfed, nor Killing Shot changed at all.

Would you really call the damage high? I mean sure its above the likes of spear or greatsword, oddly enough, but on the other hand thats all it is, above the rest but it´s not like daggers or executioner.

Those got what i´d call high bodyshot damage…although the daggers kinda need to crit.

@Velsix

Shade, GK, Huntsmen, RV (really any Bardin with MWP tbh) & BW can also do this but I do agree that it’s by no means a common capability.

Melee specifically, Grail knight cant wipe entire stormvermin packs although he can burst out two chaos warriors in a single ability swing which is plenty good.

I´ve seen dwarves try to whip out their guns in that event only to get wrecked by stray slaverats shifting aggro and getting them from behind while the stormvermin are getting shot.

@Velsix

It’s also reach, speed and block cancelling. The Spear for example doesn’t block cancel well on light 2.

The spear is pretty dang odd, you sort of want to be pretty close and personal to make the most of the push/stab attack but you need to be as far away as possible to actually have a shot at consistently hitting heads.

Otherwise the hitboxes keri got just makes you hit the bodies of rotbloods&bestmen instead.

@Velsix

This is why I’ll (going out on a limb here I suppose) out dps any Shade as WHC with the Rapier unless they bring Cloak of Mists and Vanish. Because I’ll rarely if ever have to stop attacking even on modded content and can almost always hit a specific target in the mid ranks of a horde. Reach and speed. I don’t see how elf weapons are that op outside of Shade with Cloak of Mists. Dual Swords chain heavy attacks poorly (light > heavy seems to have way less delay between attacks than heavy chaining), Glaive is one trick etc. Lots of weird quirks for technically high dps potential that I rarely see being reached.

I believe you, i do play shade myself albeit with the old pain build simply because i figure that getting used to playing with the mist one would be rather damaging in various ways. But on the topic of her damage, it´s too keyed into backstabs and her rather short reaching weapons relative to the WHC who “merely” needs headshots which are far more accessible. At least with the good old rapier.

She also cant anti entire groups of stormvermin/bestigors/maulers, but she is good for demolishing bosses and chaos patrols very safely with a conc pot at least. And being able to pick out chaos warriors/maulers or at least 2 stormvermin from incoming hordes does help relieve pressure for the team.

[BongoSkaggs]

@Velsix

Righteous Stand – Does the boss even show up anymore here? I’ve had a lot of games where it makes a sound announcing itself yet doesn’t appear.

They get stuck a lot. I’d estimate that you only get a boss 10% of the time. Maybe even less.

And, of course, it’s a random boss. A troll or stormfiend are absolutely 100% non-threatening in such a large area. So your chances of the boss spawn actually impacting the event are even slimmer.

[Incandescent]

@Velsix

Yet no one wanted the Rapier nerfed, nor Killing Shot changed at all.

Rapier is really only an outlier on WHC so really if anything would need a looking into it’s the career rather than the weapon (mind you billhook is on the same level albeit not as safe). WHC is definitely a silly level of stacked as a career though given he has 2 hidden perks, one of the best perks in the game via killing shot and one of the best passives in the game via witch hunt.

@Frostysir

Would you really call the damage high?

1h elf sword has the same damage as crowbill heavies on the uppercut which are very effective vs superarmour compared to most other weapons’ bodyshots, while the overheads are a good angle for heads

@Frostysir

Melee specifically, Grail knight cant wipe entire stormvermin packs although he can burst out two chaos warriors in a single ability swing which is plenty good.

ehhh if the GK has full stacks he can 2 shot SV with M&S (and bret sword) heavies assuming you land a headshot (or crit) on 1 of the attacks; if you pop a strength pot you’ll walk right through 'em

Slayer and Zealot are also classes that can blitz through an SV pat without much cause for concern, Unchained will also just straight bully through everything

[Sleezy]

@Velsix

I just true soloed the fight as WHC and still haven’t figured out how to bait the stationary knockback attack that can be dodged instead of the running knockback attack that is very difficult to dodge (imo)

He always does the knockback after the 2 swings. We had to learn to kite this when practicing the event for dwons. It’s pretty consistent if you just block the first two attacks and then dodge the third. What causes the running swipe is if you’re running a high dodge weapon and you back dodge the first two. Then he has to fly over to land his sweeping attack.

Edit: it works similar to a Rogre in that way.

[Sleezy]

@Frostysir

Would you really call the damage high? I mean sure its above the likes of spear or greatsword, oddly enough, but on the other hand thats all it is, above the rest but it´s not like daggers or executioner or even flails.

The damage is certainly higher than flails lol. The thing about elf 1H sword heavies is that they are some of the fastest in the game. So it’s DPS on armor is very high.

[Velsix]

@Incandescent

Rapier is really only an outlier on WHC so really if anything would need a looking into it’s the career rather than the weapon (mind you billhook is on the same level albeit not as safe). WHC is definitely a silly level of stacked as a career though given he has 2 hidden perks, one of the best perks in the game via killing shot and one of the best passives in the game via witch hunt.

I agree, Killing Shot + Rapier light spam is the issue it presents. It’s fine when considered on its own. I wonder if simply doubling the damage of headshot crits instead of insta killing mansized enemies would be easier to balance.

I feel like many miss an important aspect of the Rapier, and that is the the ability to always be attacking and to always be face up against a mixed horde for optimal headshot angles and cleave dps. It’s such an aggressive weapon imo, like Dual Axes.

@Sleezy

Edit: it works similar to a Rogre in that way.

That sounds a lot like the Minotaur as well. Thank you for the info. It will make the map true solo attempts for Lair less painful.

[Frostysir]

@Incandescent

1h elf sword has the same damage as crowbill heavies on the uppercut which are very effective vs superarmour compared to most other weapons’ bodyshots, while the overheads are a good angle for heads

…Yes the damage is indeed higher than the average but i would not call the damage high still.

A heavy bodyshot to the armored dummy does 19 damage, a heavy rapier stab does 13…so sure its a fair bit higher but when the armored targets are chaos warriors (250 health cata) or stormvermin (85) the difference does not seem very amazing or noticeable.

@Incandescent

ehhh if the GK has full stacks he can 2 shot SV with M&S (and bret sword) heavies assuming you land a headshot (or crit) on 1 of the attacks; if you pop a strength pot you’ll walk right through 'em

Yes with stuff like bombs or potions many can breeze through stormvermin, but in a simple melee without those not so many can do it…but indeed the slayer can, even without items depending on build.

Grail knight suffers from the same issue as the elf with the M&S in that he cant deal with multiple armored targets well but the slayer has ways to get around that. Unchained is silly overpowered with flail.

I mean, 1 heavy to notably damage 1 stomvermin and stagger it plus 5 more with some heat? Dang…and zealot? I have actually hardly played him at all and i havent seen a good one in a long time.

Most of the ones i see are “normal” or run ahead and die to specials a lot.

@Sleezy

The damage is certainly higher than flails lol. The thing about elf 1H sword heavies is that they are some of the fastest in the game. So it’s DPS on armor is very high.

…My bad, got the idea that fire flail and the normal one had a similar damage profile from somewhere. But in this game DPS on its own isnt anywhere near as valuable as a mix of damage and control/stagger which the flails, particularly the fire one, excel at.

There is a reason why the waystalkers dont use the daggers or the 1handed sword with the longbow.

[Adelion]

@Sleezy

I actually think it’s a decent solution given that the framework for making the events feel “different” is already in place. As in, the events already have a framework for how they work. All you have to do to make them more or less difficult is tweak the spawns. One thing that could be done to make most events more interesting is to enable regular special pacing. Far too many events spawn like 3 specials. Without specials, it’s really hard to generate any amount of pressure in V2.

What do you mean by regular special pacing? Same amount of specials but in more regular intervals? Or more regular frequency of specials peaks?

If you want to create pressure, you would have to go the Weaves way: Stacking of the same specials. Five gunners at the same time is more deadly than a gunner, assasin, packmaster, leech and blightstormer all at the same time. Although this is already done in Cataclysm where you usually get three of the same plus two more random assists. Could still be used to some effect.

However, I would still advocate to make the events themselves more special in a way different to the rest of the run. Some random examples, not thought through to the end:

• Fort Brachsenbrücke: The plague catapults could function similar to gas globes and create an area denial effect to make the team move. Instead they do barely any damage at all.

• Hunger in the Dark: Why does the Troll spawn only at the end? It would be more interesting and slightly more difficult if the troll spawns right at the beginning of the final section. And every time it gets downed (not killed though) another troll spawns. So you would have to kite him the whole time while the rest moves the cart.

• Festering Grounds: There are the vines and burbles everywhere. Why not make the monolith more “concious” and integrate some vines which attack the players (and maybe enemies alike) and tried to drag them down the pit. Not really disabled, so you can still hack at the vine while being pulled. I think an attack “similar” to this even exists in the database.

[Sleezy]

@Adelion

What do you mean by regular special pacing? Same amount of specials but in more regular intervals? Or more regular frequency of specials peaks?

No. For most events, special pacing is turned off and replaced by scripted special spawns. Think about when you’re in the Horn of Magnus event, you can go a long time without a special and then 3-4 spawn in between the waves. I’m talking about leaving special timers on for the scripted events. That way you don’t have long periods of time with no specials up to create pressure. In events with scripted specials, you could even still leave the scripted specials in to create windows of high special pressure.

[waterbottle]

Wow I’ve never agreed so much with so lengthy a post.

[Kitten]

It’s weird that the Fort event got nerfed, when it gives you the most space out of any of them for survival.

[Velsix]

Just did a quick reread of the thread and felt I should clear some things up.

@zaru

While this run is obviously an impressive feat, it’s pretty amazing that the average LEGEND finale I’ve seen of this starts harder and spawns more, with worse special behaviour (unreachable blighstormers, assassins jumping from outside etc.) to boot. A lot of luck went into this.
I don’t mind the finale on Cata though, it’s not as out of line as it is on Legend.

That’s because I stay on top of things. I’ve done the final several times in practice. My strats are consistent and not luck based.

@Frostysir

But i must say it was really abnormal from my perspective, i cant recall any of my last runs where the chaos warriors and stormvermin didnt spawn at the same time with at least 1 assassin+packmaster along with normal hordes never stopping.

This happens rarely on the event. What you’re likely experiencing is a team taking too long to rescue players and things building up. It’s also possible for a team to drag a horde from outside into the event but I’m going to give everyone enough credit and assume that’s not happening.

Blightstormer spawns can suck, but I very rarely got Blightstormer spawns in bad spots at the final.

@Frostysir

WHC, as velsix proved, does have the damage needed.

As does Handmaiden, FK with the 1h Mace etc. I’m using Deathknell in that run. The damage part isn’t that important.

@Frostysir

WHC has the perk of being able to kinda instantly wipe out groups of stormvermin in melee on his own though, not many can do that. And he was far from slow when dealing with chaos warriors.

Normal chaff was also kinda annihilated extremely quickly.

But i am confused though, that video had way less spawns than i am used to seeing in there, comparing the two is like the difference between a Nurgloth run where chaos warriors spawn and where they dont.

WHC can delete the lowest hp elite in this event quickly in a way that’s less safe than Huntsmen with Longbow during Concealed strikes, Handmaiden ulting with Invis and then headshotting with Longbow (1 SV per ult, that’s 5 SV by the time WHC has Fervency up), Sienna with the Flaming Flail etc. These all give more reward on bodyshots while being safer. WHC is very powerful, but what I did would still be doable with other careers, easier on some too.

I delete one of the waves with a bomb + Fervency. I have good time on the platform (I don’t kite around the entire arena floor and then go up one of the stairs to the platform, I go straight to the nearest stair, I don’t get why others don’t), so the event doesn’t get dragged out. Globadier’s do some good work, as does a Blightstormer. Even just letting a Globadier run up to you, then back dodging as it starts to explode is a good chunk of horde dps.

@Frostysir

Solo maybe but not with a team and omnidirectional spawns and enemies standing all over, a single bad hit kills her or just two slaverat ones so no way this works.

Are you arguing that it’s easier solo than with a team? It’s not, with or without stealth, dash or no dash, any career.

I’d very much like to see some recordings of these harder runs, because I don’t remember ever getting bad spawns when I played qp Cata. I remember taking too long on rescuing people/others taking too long, and things building up.

---

For anyone that’s interested, I suggest going onto modded, using flight mod to go to the area outside of the final event, killing a horde/the triggers that spawn first before going in and then comparing the spawns you get to what I got.