I am telling ya it doesnt solve the problem unless you actually have the killing/stagger power to start with. If you dont then it just adds time for enemies to pile up and spawn.
Ever seen a train of 15+ chaos warriors in there? I have.
You are asking for the events to be raised to convo level which is dragging everyone who thinks that event is too much down .(
Fair enough, but, premades then? If no then i can only say that you´ve already raised your skill to the point where you are beyond cata x)
Ye I mean people with Avg 800 hours each have REAL trouble completing O-N-E specific map (when Iam hosting)
While having almost NO issues whatsoever with A-N-Y other map and failing only when game decides to spawn BS on top BS
Convo is a fun map, I like the design and the lore
Dont blind me when Iam jumping down
Make specials spawning in the distance MORE visible ESP for stormers
Fix the bug some people have that make the scenario spawn 25+ specials in 5 mins
And convo is fun and fair
As it is now, its akin to old brachsenbrucke finale with infinite spawning
If its not that way for you CONGRATULATIONS your convo is ALOT easier than mine you win a pumpkin
The funny thing about that event is that there are enough enemies for everyone to have a small horde each to deal with, in my experience its rare to have the leeway to help anyone else.
Also, you cant access other enemies if the chaos warriors are frontlining, hence the need to vaporize them or stunlock them to oblivion.
Sword and dagger require you to get the 2nd heavy which is vulnerable to interruptions, it works if there´s only a few enemies but its far from good against multiple.
1handed sword deals like 30-40 damage on a headshot to a chaos warrior, which is actually pretty dang …not bad but far from good.
1handed axe is a meme, do not promote it´s use : (
What all these have in common? None actually kill chaos warriors as quickly as needed to make a “stand and fight” scenario work. Nor do they have the stagger for it, only the spear&shield does have the latter.
It sure as heck does not. 2 full heavy attacks deal about 20 damage, stormvermin have about 90 health. That´s not fairly quick at all.
No you do not, but the problem is that the event has an answer for anything you might throw at it except killing everything instantly or getting lucky. I´ve been part of teams trying to sit down with a few tanks/frontliners holding enemies off and backliners sniping but it still lead to us getting overrun and forced to split and die.
That´s not what the event demands though, the event demands you have specific things in your teamcomp and if you dont you just flat out lose unless you get very, very lucky…of course some teamwork is needed otherwise even if you have the needed stuff in the team it wont help.
But really the more common scenario is that you lack something and mayhem starts from there.
I´ve had plenty of cases with many dumb dang tanks pulling over heaps of enemies to me playing a sniper and forcing me into a melee i cant survive which is really no fun at all : (
It kinda works if its an ironbreaker using his ability but the rest just ends up getting me killed, a lot, because most snipers arent build to win a melee against multiple armored elites and specials ontop.
Event starts at 24:49. By using the drop and forcing enemies to climb, you can easily clear them. Here, Velsix does it solo even with Deathwish on making the mobs much more difficult to control/move.
This is alleviated by people fighting together. You severely underestimate what four players can withstand when they are next to each other, regardless of what they’re bringing to the game. Convo’s waves are nothing.
With hm you have so much mobility, attack speed and crit chance that it is a non-issue to make excellent use out of s&d or any other weapon for that matter. You talk as if players have no idea how to dodge or time their attacks, which may be so, but it’s not an issue related to Convocation specifically. 1h axe is indeed a meme, but if you would put it on the build that I recommended recently in another thread where the poster was struggling with hm, you would discover that the weapon turns into a monster. Stacking silly amounts of attack speed and crit chance more than balances its downsides. The same goes for the 1h sword. What do all of these weapons have in common? A damage output way over what the shield provides and more than enough to whittle down anything in that particular event.
I know it’s about 5-6 heavy swings on Cataclysm, with Famished Flames. Quite reasonable on top of your firewalk/staff imo. If as a flamesword bw you can’t deal with a mixed horde the size of the ones there on your own, pin it in place and grind it down, again it’s not an issue related to the event itself, but rather of the player lacking experience. And you don’t have to do this alone. You have 3 other people beside you.
I just gave you an example of a successful run with a group having non-existent DPS. In my defense I was memeing and the dwarf was probably new or didn’t trust a drakegun in quickplay. Generally speaking, the more aggressive and geared towards dealing damage your build is, an easier time you will have in this game, but it doesn’t mean that you can’t make due with defensive builds if you want to play like that. Nothing in particular punishes a defensive build as far as this event is concerned. Splitting up is indeed punished very hard and very quickly, but this goes for almost any build and generally any event in the game.
I wouldn’t be so dismissive of the competent players so as to put all their victories on “luck”. It’s really the fundamentals of the game that are being test in that event, and it’s one of the few places in the base game where this still happens, along with maybe Old Haunts.
I’m not talking about leading overheads into other people here, but the mere act of trying to stay together when the event is just starting. I’m actually returning from a gongshow of a Convo game where I spent the beginning running around the circle just trying to be close to someone. All that was spawning at that point were slaves and marauders, and we didn’t have a tank, sniper or anything for that matter, because everyone was busy running circles away from everyone else. With that kind of approach, anything short of nerfing the event back to slave rat swarms won’t be enough.
eh there’s no real requirements for anything in cata, obviously there are picks that will provide a smoother experience
Honestly I’d say the only map that really punishes you for not bringing specific characters/builds would be Enchanter’s Lair due to how the final phase of the fight plays out
…I personally believe you are grossly underestimating how hopeless it is to try and fight a horde with chaos warriors infront if you cant instagib those. What are 4 players that cant kill the warriors do? Wait around for the specials to kill them or for themselves to run out of stamina?
The problem is not the mobility, yes you can easily dodge around 2-3 chaos warriors but with slaverats and others around that wont matter.Especially not in such a cramped space restricting your movement…As for handmaiden having builds, that´s not the weapon, its just handmaiden pumping in enough raw power to make anything work, even something really bad.
Use the same build for a good weapon vs a bad one and the results are obviously different.
I call bull on that.
As i mentioned, sword on a headshot deals like 30-40 damage on a chaos warrior which has 250 health, even if all you get is 2 at once there is no way to deal with these quickly or cleanly if other enemies are around. Especially grouping strategies fall completely with any handmaiden that doesnt have a shield, which does allow to at least stagger them sometimes…and funnily enough the shield combo of push-stab-heavy actually kills chaos warriors quickly and keeps them controlled…
Aye so what do you do when you have 6 chaos warriors backed by 8 stormvermin with a horde + specials? Battlemage doesnt kill armored squat and her ability doesnt exactly promote her staying with the rest of the team.
And i am saying that, having both of the strongest tanks in the game on the same team isnt normal in QP, nor is being able to camp like you did either.
Except you know, a wall of chaos warriors with packmasters behind it, or gasrats beyond it, or stormers, that force your team to split. Which is normal to everyone else.
Your description of what happened there was far from something that should have worked without a great deal of luck in that area. A single stray gasglobe would have made your entire plan fall apart and yet it did not happen despite how silly advantageous that area is for them.
The only thing old haunts tests meanwhile is if you have a solid frontline or not in the final event. There is literally no skill involved in that beyond the basic stuff…Tank there to hold enemies of the rest of the team to prevent them being zerged? Congratulations, you´ve won provided no packmaster sneaks up on you.
No tank or something silly overpowered like unchained? Too bad the monks and packmasters got you…i repeat, no skills are really tested here.
…Man have you paid attention to how the game works at all? If you´ve no frontline and maulers are coming in then of bloody course you split up. If those guys start stacking up someone will eat an overhead so you have to divide the group to deal with it. Having something like a huntsman and a waystalker both using light weapons stand ontop eachother does not promote survival in that kind of situation, not whatsoever…and even more if they could not handle maulers on their own then they´d never handle them even as a team.
As a rule of thumb really, any enemy type is bad in high enough numbers and without a frontline its sensible to divide&conquer.
And as such, how is a team consting of say…Handmaiden (sword)BH(Falchion) Merc(M&S) and a Pyromancer(dagger) supposed to handle that event? Is it literally not impossible? Unless they all have optimal potions and bombs?
I would not want that either, but i would like if at least the event didnt spawn multiple disablers along with chaos warriors and stormvermin endlessly and frequently.
Aaand it proves my point perfectly does it not? He has the power(and the skill!) to clear enemies there thus it works. Ironically i´d also say that him being solo there had the benefit of letting him kite pretty freely and avoid the situation where he and a teammate crash into eachother with hordes from both sides.
But i must say it was really abnormal from my perspective, i cant recall any of my last runs where the chaos warriors and stormvermin didnt spawn at the same time with at least 1 assassin+packmaster along with normal hordes never stopping.
Its kind of amazing how little people know about the game when they reach cata. Apparently, you dont need to mark Specials, or Elites, dont need a single Idea on how to use Potions, toss bombs to bolster the end screen, and have no clue that obstacles and miniledges are the kiters best friend. Monster kiting is being treated as hogwash, since everyone know that whenever one spawns its the number one priority and needs to die asap got already mentioned.
Still its the end events fault for being too hard, not the own inability to use what the game hands you.
If 70% of the people, thats the number from the nerf convo thread, just want quick reds the solution isnt killing end events, but just putting them into lower difficulty boxes. When people are ready to advance difficulty they will. If they stop playing after they got everything, so be it. This also would remove a big portion of the backlash received whenever the game gets more difficult and people start crying “MY REDS!”.
WHC has the perk of being able to kinda instantly wipe out groups of stormvermin in melee on his own though, not many can do that. And he was far from slow when dealing with chaos warriors.
Normal chaff was also kinda annihilated extremely quickly.
But i am confused though, that video had way less spawns than i am used to seeing in there, comparing the two is like the difference between a Nurgloth run where chaos warriors spawn and where they dont.
The spawns specifically aren’t too bad per wave. Around 2-3 CWs or 4-6 SVs. Something like that anyway, not sure about exact numbers but simply going from memory. Sometimes, although rare, there are no elites what so ever. I tend to see this more on Cata than on Legend to be honest but that’s just my experience. You can get multiple CW and SV waves after one another with very little time in between. This quickly adds up.
The event itself is unique in the sense that it is one of the few which can really punish the players for not effectively clearing each wave. As there are not many events like this, the player base isn’t challenged often enough, hence not skilled enough for something like the Convo finale. And by skill I mean situational awareness, optimal weapon combo usage, kiting(dodging, move-tech and shoving enemies out of the way), aim, and experience(like abusing LoS against certain specials).
I firmly believe that the lack of a good and somewhat extensive tutorial section takes much of the blame for the general lack of skill present in Legend and above. Not to mention the whole loot/grind thing Vermintide has going on. Players who are not interested in a game which centers around self-improvement for success end up mistaking Vermintide to be about the loot when it is anything but and are surprised when the game hands them a can of whoop-ass.
I see this argument above about not having the firepower to get rid of CWs. What exactly are these people running that nobody has armour damage? And this on Cata. If people are running cr*p builds on the game’s highest difficulty, then that is all on them. Also, qp cata can be risky for the less skilled exactly because of this. If they are not running some meta build then they may find themselves in a situation their team is literally unprepared for because the team didn’t have the chance to take the appropriate gear for that map. Like speccing out P vs. Skaven for Nest.
Another point being is that Legend/Cata is where the damage you deal becomes almost secondary to your ability to survive. This can come in the form of mastering the game’s mechanics or running talents/traits/properties that allow you to survive tougher situations. Because you cannot deal damage if you are dead.
Bringing up other events for Cataclysm doesn’t mean that all of them need to be full of Chaos Warriors and Assassins. But making them harder in a way that would require the team to work together at least somewhat to cover each other’s backs. Introducing a Monster into events is a good and simple way of doing this. Righteous Stand finale being a good example.
I really don’t know what to say to this. There are so many things that you can do in that situation outside of nuking them depending on what the team is comprised of. The game gives you so many tools to put to use with your own personal experience and skill that I can’t even understand the confusion or lack of ideas.
A good hm specifically can easily kite around the pool if need be with just about any equipment, delete the light infantry and have plenty of room to deal with cws or stormvermin. Assuming you are holding ground with the rest of the team, it’s enough to dodge around them and dish out your DPS. It’s more than enough to clear those waves, assuming you are actually fighting instead of chickening out. As for your last comment in that quote, the point of that build is that it works with literally any weapon and turns it into a blender. You were complaining that the axe is a meme and unsuited for dealing with CWs, so I simply gave you an alternative where it can be brought to the same level with her other weapons and offer you its added benefit of high armor piercing damage.
Again, not really sure what to make of this. If you’re stacking crit chance and attack speed, which is what you should be doing if you are playing to your strengths as an off-shield handmaiden, there is just no way the DPS of a shield&spear remains comparable with your output. Try it for yourself if you don’t believe me. Armor isn’t really a problem if you’re cranking +40% base crit chance and up to +70% attack speed, even if you’re swinging a wet noodle. Playing aggressively and deleting your problems will always be safer than hiding behind and shield and waiting for your problems to be solved on their own. Which doesn’t mean that you can’t survive Convo if you do choose to go the shield route, but it’s less effective and even more reliant on having a functional team working together.
You don’t have to firewalk into the sunset. You can use it next to your team to stagger the armor and allow the whole group to gain the initiative. Staying together means that disablers aren’t that much of a threat, the space you created gives a sniper to opportunity to take out other specials and so on. People do this all the time in all sorts of scenarios, so I’m not really sure why I even have to explain it at this point.
Maybe the gas rats didn’t get to throw because they were sniped quickly? As I mentioned, between the three of us we had so much stagger that it was very easy to relieve the pressure and ensure that someone could always switch to their ranged weapon. Maybe it wasn’t that specials didn’t spawn, but that we killed them on spawn? And even if a gas globe did hit (which I can’t recall), it’s not as if the run is doomed and everything is lost. Literally all you have to do is move out of the cloud as a group and resume. Jumping down would be the big mistake, as it leads to people being separated and picked off. It’s enough to rotate one way or the other around the plateau.
Maulers don’t even spawn in Convo’s finale, so I don’t understand why you bring them up in the discussion. And I don’t understand how that counters my point anyway. Enemies climb up and drop down from almost everywhere in that event. If you are ranged career, you want to sit inside a pocket formed by your team and ideally have a sorc pillar behind you so that enemies can’t give you the jump from behind. This if you actually want to be able to operate and bring value to the team doing what you need to do, which is mainly to pick off specials. However, if what you really want is to get ganged by rats and shut down in 2 seconds, you run away from everyone else and then complain that the event is too difficult.
As for the group you suggested, the ideal strategy in my opinion is very simple and I just outlined it above. Merc is the anchor, two other players form a pocket around him and the fourth sits inside the pocket, ideally being the player that is the most suited to shoot specials. You don’t propose too many specifics for the builds but you already have so much control and DPS in that group that I fail to see the issue. BH is pretty much a one click one kill on any ranged target and he has a side-arm that can delete one CW instantly. You have a pyro that either goes full heat attack speed with the dagger so she’s a crit blender, or she’s some form of caster than can easily set everything on fire on her own and she has the potential to erase another CW with the burning head. Then you have a merc on one of the most busted weapons in the game right now that will kill the horde on his own and you also have a handmaiden that could double up on range, or blend in melee or fish someone out of trouble and so on. There is nothing inherently weak or unsuited for the event in that group unless you start adding stuff like BH being on repeater pistol+buckshot or however that talent has been renamed.
Or you could get better at the game if you want to overcome the challenges of its highest difficulties.
While this run is obviously an impressive feat, it’s pretty amazing that the average LEGEND finale I’ve seen of this starts harder and spawns more, with worse special behaviour (unreachable blighstormers, assassins jumping from outside etc.) to boot. A lot of luck went into this.
I don’t mind the finale on Cata though, it’s not as out of line as it is on Legend.
Anyway, Convocation aside, some events really need a change from being too easy. Not to make them Convo level, but to make them more than a borefest. Brachsenbrücke is a joke, surely there’s a sweet spot between the current sorry state and that one version which sent you into the infinite plague monk dimension. Engines of War is a mixed bag with the finale, depending on the types of elites the game spawns it can be easy “Was that it?” level or a pretty decent challenge that requires positioning. Not enough specials. Pit’s fire event having an officially sanctioned optimal spot and not a single special spawn is also silly, but the window break challenge would be impossible if the whole thing got harder. Hunger in the Dark finale’s berserker spawns are the only threat there and are so formulaic that they just get deleted before doing anything most of the time.
The barrel event in Empire must have gotten a nerf at some point, much less chaos spawns nowadays and it’s only as hard as the decisions your team makes are dumb.
The whole prisoner sequence in Grain and the War Camp sequence near the end are stingy with specials and are the easiest parts of their map.
The Magnus finale always plays out the same because there’s no reason not to stand in the best spot and the spawns are way too fixed.
I dont know either, because i´ve been through that event so many times at this point and the only successful runs i´ve had regardless of what role or method i chose was to have the team nuke everything to oblivion.
Solo maybe but not with a team and omnidirectional spawns and enemies standing all over, a single bad hit kills her or just two slaverat ones so no way this works.
It isnt actually raised to the same level though, all you do is make it able to do what it is supposed to be good for, shredding armor, but it´s still just damn bad against hordes. especially mixed ones.
The armor piercing is not high, go test it on a dummy if you dont believe me <.<
Having the ability to dish out hundreds if not thousands worth of damage in a minute is not the same as having the opportunity to do so and is the biggest failing point of both the axe and sword. Shield meanwhile can staggerlock everything infront while still doing damage.
Control.
I have literally never seen this work, a dense horde with chaos warriors infront, mixed enemies around and a packmaster behind the chaos warriors is a death sentence for whoever goes up to melee.
Unless bomb spam occurs but pretty much only then, for even if you have a footknight or something to stagger that wall of warriors the packmaster just gets knocked into the heap and cant be hit.
And i am saying this should never have worked, it feels like the convo you play and the one i´ve played are two different dimensions…my gasrats throws globes for miles and they are silent.
Except this coordination level in QP is impossible.
They do in mine ._.
This really feels like the discussion where some people tell me that chaos warriors dont spawn in the nurgloth fight but i see them there frequently.
This demands the team have the ability to create such a pocket though, plenty of QP teams cannot when stormvermin, chaos warriors and specials come rolling in at the same time.
’
I am just fairly convinced that we are talking about two very different events here, not sure what so say about it.
To be clear, my convo consists of walking in there to some normal mobs spawning, then a wave of stormvermin and specials, about 2-3 of all the skaven ones. Then a lull with some random stuff like maulers, specials and maybe a few SV.
Then chaos warriors and stormvermin and shielded rotbloods at the same time, followed by another wave of skaven specials and possibly blightstormers. Normal mobs like clanrats and marauders and whatnot never stop spawning.
I think at this point in Vermintide it is close to impossible to have a tea composition which is unable to beat CoD on Legend and Cataclysm. The event is not that problematic and is beaten in quickplays regularly. The only time the event results in death is when the team already struggled during the run prior to it.
There have to exist different versions of Vermintide 2. Also, I would welcome a video or screenshots for Mauler because I am halfway sure that they do not spawn in the finale and there is no programm code which even enables them spawning during the waves. But I will try out the weekend again.
As for the general topic. Some more interesting events would be welcome, at least for Cataclysm. Although it should be made sure that they still feel different. So just spamming more specials or bosses everywhere is not really much of a solution.
I agree that on average it gets beaten on legend, i played through it while testing out unchained and it wasnt over the top. But Cata…honestly most of the times my teams end up dying there in a heap there regardless of what we do.
Strategies like grouping up, splitting to hold certain areas, dropping and trying to rotate along with eachother,nothing just works out. Nothing except nuking out chaos warriors whenever they appear to make clearing other stuff easier.
If the chaos warriors dont go down extremely quickly then other enemies will heap up behind them and then specials, at which point it´s a death sentence.
I actually think it’s a decent solution given that the framework for making the events feel “different” is already in place. As in, the events already have a framework for how they work. All you have to do to make them more or less difficult is tweak the spawns. One thing that could be done to make most events more interesting is to enable regular special pacing. Far too many events spawn like 3 specials. Without specials, it’s really hard to generate any amount of pressure in V2.
