Let's fix the crafting system to be kinda like Weaves (also traits and properties suggestions)

I do have one criticism. The big thing that’s preventing a full “Weave Crafting” conversion is the loot.

Loot, right now, is unbelievably underutilized with only three purposes: increasing gear power, getting trash to scrap for crafting, and reds. If crafting adopts the mastery system then looting chests might be even more worthless than it already is, as you won’t be using material from scrapping trash.

Seriously, though, the loot system is tragic and deserves its own thread.

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The crafting system indeed needs at least some rehauling. I may find the actual issues of a little different priorities than you, and I won’t comment on the Weave crafting system as I didn’t experience it myself, so I’ll bring in another point of view. I think there are ways to make the crafting system a lot better without a complete overhaul (although I’m not exactly opposed to that either).

The randomness is indeed a (or even the most) significant factor in the annoyance of crafting. Especially as there’s no bad luck protection at all: I can roll the same Trait or the same two Properties several times in a row. Or I can roll ten times alternating between the same two Traits. And of course, if I’m (for whatever odd reason) rerolling the Properties on an Exotic (orange) item, I can get the right Properties but low percentages (significant especially when going for damage breakpoints) which means I’ll have to roll them again - with no guarantee I’ll get them in a reasonable timeframe. So introducing some protection for bad luck should reduce the frustration and resources (including time) spent on rerolling. Prevent repeat rolls, allow rolling for one Property at a time (or locking one in), and/or maybe introduce rolling for Property values alone. Of course, the latter would introduce a bit of a problem with Veteran items, but I’ll come to that soon.

Another annoyance I’ve found is salvaging. It’s done only nine items at a time, and each has to be clicked to the grid separately, which starts getting very annoying when there’s a page or more of items to salvage. We could (probably easily) be given an option to salvage all of our low-quality or low-Power items at once, which would indeed save a lot of useless clicking and time (and through that, our wrists and nerves).

Salvage brings me to resources. As things are, I have close to 10k Scrap, around 700 of each item part, and a ton of all dusts (except Bright). All of which is just gathering virtual dust there, never (at least for now) to be really used. Bright Dust is the only resource that has significant use in the end, and even that has its limits (which several players have already reached, and more will in the future). When Lohner’s Emporium gets implemented, I’d love to see it act as some kind of resource sink, letting us get something for all those useless resources we’ve gathered. More Deeds, Cosmetics, Keep decorations, whatever.

My final personal issue (at least for now) is one that I’ve talked about before in other threads: the state of Veteran items. The only real value they have is exactly because of the overly random crafting system, because their having always full Property values removes some of the frustration associated with that system. They’re what they are because they need to have something going for them, and that something is frustration reduction - frustration that shouldn’t be there to begin with. They don’t feel special or different, just a less annoying or less uncertain version of Exotics. No, glowy bits don’t make them any more special. Thus, I’d want to see them transformed into something that makes them feel somewhat different from Exotics. Not necessarily stronger, just different - make it worth it using them over full-roll Oranges (which do happen, by the way). It’s kind of hard to figure out how this could be achieved, but the best idea I’ve come up with is to give them special options for Traits, ones not available for Exotics. They should probably be roughly equal in power to the usual ones so as to not overshadow them, but they could be more of tradeoffs or skill-based than the usual ones. Give up some instant damage for (increased) DoT, or something triggering on melee headshot.

And of course there are the more minor QoL improvements that are already addressed by one mod or another, which should in some form be implemented in the base game.


Wait, what!?

Explosive Ordinance is the only thing I’ve used for many months now. It’s so much better than the other two options that it’s almost ridiculous. Now, at launch it was terrible, but that’s just because it was bugged and didn’t actually work. Since they fixed it, it’s incredible.

Shrapnel, on the other hand, just seems like a complete waste to me. The way I see people use it is to proc on a boss for extra DPS, but if you’re clearing adds like you’re supposed to before you try to focus down the boss, then the slightly faster kill time on the boss doesn’t matter at all, because it’s the only threat around anyway.

Other than that, I don’t understand some of your comments. You say that anything not 300 hero power should be trashed, but you also say that greens and blues were useful in Vermintide 1. Are you forgetting that oranges had significantly higher damage than blues or greens in V1? Even without unlocking any of the slots on the oranges, they were much stronger. Hero power on the weapons is essentially the same thing in Vermintide 2. (Probably less severe of a difference, in fact.) Why would it be okay in Vermintide 1 to use underpowered gear, but not okay in Vermintide 2?

I’ve used more “suboptimal” weapons in V1 than in V2, but I think that’s just because the loot is MUCH slower to acquire in V1. You just don’t really have options. In V2, you can just scrap a few things & craft the specific weapon that you want to use. It’s a much more welcoming system, in my opinion. (Though there is a LOT about it that I don’t like, mostly related to the tedium of re-rolling.)

They told us at the beginning of the beta that the beta forum was just temporary and would be shut down after the beta. So don’t get salty about that. :slight_smile: I’m actually surprised they left it open as long as they did.


Hey, that’s on you. There’s plenty of people that will defend Parry and Resourceful Combatant to the death if I disrespect them, as well as people who mock me for thinking that +20% health or curse resistance are “mandatory”.

That’s great that you find utility in it. I don’t really. I used to use Shrapnel, but so many talents don’t stack with it. It’s so much more fun to just randomly chuck 3-4 bombs at a boss or a patrol as Ranger Veteran with Grenadier if you’re lucky, since he has the +10% passive dupe chance. The beta was hilarious with the bugged talent that let you have infinite bombs.

Other than that, I don’t understand some of your comments. You say that anything not 300 hero power should be trashed,

Not really the point of the post and I even say it there. That’s a different topic entirely to debate the merits of the hero power system.

but you also say that greens and blues were useful in Vermintide 1. Are you forgetting that oranges had significantly higher damage than blues or greens in V1?

Okay, but if I had a rapier with Regrowth + Killing Blow as a blue, it was perfectly fine to use. Many people used the blue sword and board on Kruber instead of the orange because it obstructed your vision less and you could roll better traits on it than the orange or red, if I remember correctly.

Yes, there was a hierarchy of weapons that was present, but I definitely still used my blue rapier or blue repeater handgun on the higher difficulties until the better ones dropped for me. People definitely ran Cataclysm with “white runs”.

Hero power has all but killed that concept, in my opinion. But, again, it’s totally not the point of this post. If you want me to rant on that for another 8 pages, I’ll have to make a separate thread for you, but I don’t feel like doing that right now.

They told us at the beginning of the beta that the beta forum was just temporary and would be shut down after the beta. So don’t get salty about that. :slight_smile: I’m actually surprised they left it open as long as they did.

Slight difference between “you can’t post in the beta forums anymore” and “you can’t see anything anyone posted in the beta forum at all because it’s been made private”. The other day, Hedge had to move a dev post explaining stagger to the main forum.

It seemed like an unnecessary move to remove it from public visibility, even if I think it should have been locked to prevent dumb posts like “when’s WoM coming out” or “is there another beta” every day. It seems doubly bad to shut down the forum suddenly when one of the biggest criticisms of Fatshark is…


Like I said, I could totally point to some good ideas and inspirations from the beta forum to cite my post if I did some digging, but I literally can’t do that. It’s silly.

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That ship has already sailed, my friend. I have several thousand of every crafting material. A complete overhaul and rework of the crafting system was needed a year ago. It’s like the proverb: “The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is today.”

I think that this whole crafting material oversaturation can be addressed elsewhere. If Lohner’s Emporium brings a way to purchase cosmetics with dust or scrap metal, even at a ridiculous ratio, that becomes a crafting sink that would hopefully reset the loot levels back to normal even for the most ridiculous of horders with thousands of chests and hours.

Please don’t make me write another thread lol.

The best part about my “complete overhaul” is that it’s using the already complete overhaul that they did for the Winds of Magic. So, it may be less work than just adding piles to the spaghetti code that is the existing crafting system. We don’t need a page 9 or 10 on the crafting tab lol. Throw it out.

Yes, I agree. Mass-salvaging is important to break up the tedium. There needs to be a resource sink in some capacity with Lohner’s Emporium. I wrote on the beta forum somewhere, cough cough doesn’t exist cough cough, that the Lohner’s Emporium update, if it took the approach of acquiring cosmetics by using your crafting resources, could come out almost in-sync with Winds of Magic. The reason being that Essence, the material used in the Weaves, would be one of the new currencies used to purchase various cosmetics, since that’s pretty much the only material that isn’t hyper-inflated to be worthless (since it doesn’t exist yet).

That’s a little trickier to do, but I like the idea itself. There’s plenty of wacky traits and trinkets from V1 that didn’t make the cut in some way or another. They could differentiate effects to make the reds a little spicier. I thought it was a little too bold to ask for that in this meager proposal. I merely acknowledged “yep reds are a problem worthy of a whole different thread, I’m not touchin’ that one”.

Yeah, I definitely think even basic UI stuff to show if someone has been downed, has natural bond equipped, and showing the actual health numbers or damage numbers as options in the game would be great. I don’t know if Fatshark is in the business of integrating good UI mods in their game by default. It might be a little sticky if they have to compensate modders for using their code, unless there’s an EULA on the workshop that I’m not aware of. They’re not even sanctioning mods right now until after the update, since it’ll just break everything.


As I’ve understood it, that’s pretty much the biggest problem for implementing several of the changes. Well, they’ve worded it as (iirc) “having doubts about taking control away from the original authors”, but that’s essentially it. I’ve no doubt that (nearly) all of the modders would gladly give their code for FS to use without compensation (as they didn’t expect any from the start, and especially if they get acknowledgement). Another reason is, of course, that as long as (approved) mods can help, there’s no immediate need to implement those changes and thus they can wait - but hopefully FS will heed our request and work hard on making QoL improvements to the base game.


Yeah, I’m sure that all these people contributing quality mods would love to see their work get forked and officially implemented within the game’s code base itself. Even if it’s just the idea that gets implemented, that’d still be a cool as hell accomplishment, in my book.

Having it written down in legalese somewhere that says “we don’t need to pay you money for it if it’s on the workshop, so don’t sue us please” would just be a good option for Fatshark to protect themselves.

They could even dole out special portrait frames to people who 1) have a sanctioned mod or 2) have a mod that was so good that it was just brought into the game itself.

TF2 did a similar concept with “Community Items” where people that did something super-duper cool got a special sparkly version of an item in the game. Hey, maybe Fatshark could just distribute a special color glowy illusion of that person’s choice. Green instead of blue, like TF2’s color rarity.

I’ll take the Dual Axes or the Throwing Axes please (kidding but also not really if you’re giving those out)

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Why do you use Explosive Ordinance may I ask?

As for Shrapnel, I like it for softening up CWs in chaos patrols, but that’s its main use. SV patrols already get deleted by well-placed bombs.

To be fair to Parry, it’s a great trait for when things go bad, but it competes with the BiS that is SS and in this game, the best defence is truly a good offence. You get much more consistent meaningful use out of the quicker attacks than you do out of the added blocking.

That aside, agreed with the OP so much. I haven’t played Vt1 but when I look at the item system there and the one in Vt2 I’m left scratching my head, the items there look way more interesting (even if I hear everyone took Bloodlust and Regrowth, but that’s a balance issue - people still only take certain traits/properties in Vt2).

WHC heavy breathing…

Honestly inspirational would be great if it gave AS or crit chance for a bit.

Or hell, if they really want to go the support angle, 100% BCR for eg 1/2/3 seconds to allies near the enemy you headshot (ofc then this would have to be an expensive trait, and the effect low radius). That’d turn it into a nifty tool for bailing out anyone that gets isolated (cough the wutelgi cough).

This is great! I think it’d need a higher ramp up in price though if implemented (instead of duration reductions) or else it’ll be Junkietide 2.

Yep, I think the trinket traits all have at least a somewhat decent pickrate, if only because you don’t need to put as much thought into picking them, since bombs are usually good no matter what you do.

I think Explosive Ordinance sounds pretty good in terms of just giving good coverage and horde clear to the bombs, especially fire bombs. It gains in horde utility while the other two gain utility against bosses and patrols moreso.

I understand his taking it, and I was hesitant to talk crap about the trait or any others, for fear of people coming out of the woodwork to debate me on trait utility instead of the actual content of the post lol.

Yep, I agree. I think moving a lot of the defensive-oriented traits to the secondary trait slots would go a long way in improving Parry to be on the same level as Swift Slaying. Like, if Off Balance and Opportunist were both secondary traits to take alongside Parry at a significant cost.

Yeah, it was definitely a significant issue in V1. I liked the approach of temp HP in this game, but I’m not a big fan of it being locked away at such a high level. Moving it down to level 5 was a great move, in my opinion.

I’d say a lot of the traits in that game definitely got carried over in some capacity. Like Killing Blow just became the WHC’s insta-kill perk, essentially. Ammunition Holder and Master Crafted got shifted to a lot of the ranged careers. Hail of Doom (two shots for the price of one randomly) is a new talent on Waystalker in the beta, I think. There’s still quite a few that didn’t get ported over like Skullcracker (small chance for bodyshots to count as headshots) and some mentioned in the OP.

See, that’s really cool because I forgot about that synergy with WHC’s insta-kill crit headshot. In the first game, Berserking felt good to me on the big weapons that couldn’t fish for Swift Slaying procs by swinging as fast as possible. It was also +40% attack speed and +50% damage resistance, but that seemed a bit excessive here lol.

I could see this trait being really good in that case for WHC or, as I said, for really big weapons that don’t fish for crits always. Like, on a Merc Kruber with the executioner sword overhead’s passive +20% crit rate (or whatever it is idk). It also has a downside of being less useful for boss DPS, obviously. It honestly seems pretty fair compared to Swift Slaying.

I like the concept of the stamina regeneration, since it seems kinda unique. I feel like attack speed or crit chance kinda steps on the toes of a couple careers’ talents, like Merc and WHC. Still, it’d be interesting to try, although it sounds pretty strong.

The thing I like most about the crafting system is that it gives them the flexibility to add something and then remove it if it seems stupidly broken in testing. They can see more reliable usage stats if people are always picking that trait, as opposed to the reroll system.

If something gets removed because it’s OP, players can instantly pick something new to try out, without worrying about rerolling. If a weapon has a no longer valid trait on it (or it goes up in price and the player’s pick becomes invalid that way) due to a patch, Fatshark could clear out the traits for them and give them a free first re-craft on that weapon to try something else out.

For that reason, I’d be down to try out your suggestion and then giggle with glee at how fun and OP it is to have a Huntsman Kruber pooping out a shared Swift Slaying proc for his team lol.

Did you misunderstand my pricing structure or does it really just seem that overpowered? Proxy sharing with your entire team was a trinket in the first game and it didn’t even have a duration reduction associated with it at all lol. You did usually see one person running it at least to become the potion monkey, while others carried the grimoires and took trinkets like infinite dodges instead (which was also stupidly OP and fun lol).

To share with 3 allies, I suggested the price would be 50 + 60 + 70, so a total of 180 Mastery Points. Swift Slaying right now is 100 points, while 5% crit chance is 150 points.

Like I said in the post, exact pricing and balance is immaterial to the actual content and ideas themselves, but I’m curious if maybe my ideas were way off in balance and that turned some people off from the post. I’m pretty sure one guy on reddit was having PTSD flashbacks when I mentioned the trait Haste from Vermintide 1.

Bear in mind, it got nerfed later to still require reloading. You just had infinite ammo for a short duration, kinda like the Guns Blazing buff from Twitch mode which is so cool and fun to get. On top of that, there was the attack speed increase. You often didn’t need to take that game’s equivalent of Scrounger if you were lucky enough with the proc chance on Haste, although it was easy to run out of ammo fishing for Haste procs if you missed or were unlucky.

Either way, good to see some different discussion here on the Fatshark thread. It definitely didn’t take off like the twin thread on reddit or the other thread on health/curse properties, sadly.

Hopefully we see a Fatshark employee pop in to give their thoughts on the ideas. Nobody ping them, I want to see them come here on their own to prove that they actually read things on the forums, like they say they do.

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I was thinking 5% of either AS or crit chance at max, anything more would be ridiculous.

I still don’t like stamina because you don’t know how much stamina your ally has, how much stamina regen they have, whether or not they have parry, BCR etc., there’re so many 'if’s as to its usefulness I don’t know why anyone would take Inspirational Shot, even at a discount. Hence I’d prefer a more active buff from it.

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It makes the AoE a LOT bigger. More than you might expect. (50% increase in radius means it covers more than twice as much area.) That makes it pretty easy to hit basically an entire patrol, or to just lay down a huge pool of fire to completely block off an area.

I initially started using it when I was playing a lot of ranger vet with bomb drops, because there were so many bomb drops that bomb dupe felt totally unnecessary. But then once I had tried it with ranger vet and realized how much more impactful it made every bomb feel, I couldn’t go back to normal bombs again.


That’s a good point. With higher difficulty patrols being so much larger, you probably need to have Explosive Ordinance to reliably hit them all.

Either way, hopefully the bomb dupe ult stays on Ranger Vet. Having two super big bombs is huge, I’m sure.

Sounds a bit like you’ve never actually used it. :slight_smile: In practice, it’s very good vs. patrols, because you can hit basically the entire patrol with each bomb. I wouldn’t use bombs vs. a simple horde unless I just have extra bombs lying around, but a larger bomb makes it a lot easier to take out anything dangerous hiding in the middle of a horde, such as multiple elites, packmaster, etc. Throwing a fire bomb near a downed ally gives a lot of room for the revive. Against bosses, I would usually use bombs to clear adds fast & keep the arena clean for an easy boss fight, rather than getting slightly more dps on the boss.


Is it still bugged where it’s host only or does it work for everyone now?

Also: how’s the increased radius with FF?

I think Fatshark fixed it a long time ago to actually work for clients, but it took long enough that I didn’t really care to try it out instead of the other two traits. The more that @mahkra talks about it, I’m convinced it might be a decent pick if you don’t want to rely on RNGesus Ranald to dupe your bombs with Grenadier and you already have teammates with buffs that don’t stack with Shrapnel.

That being said, I never worry about friendly fire with grenades as it is now, do you? I imagine it’s still the same damage for regular bombs and I feel like fire bombs don’t have any friendly fire beyond the small impact itself. If there’s a fly on your shoulder, I’m chucking a bomb or three at you.

It still seems kinda weird to me that they took off the “Grenades no longer do friendly fire damage” bit from Explosive Ordinance in the first game. Seems like that’d be a good buff to it to convince skeptics like me to try it, at the very least.

I still feel like, regardless of its actual utility, the fact that it is just a bump in percentage points to a value with no conditional proc makes me feel like it still is worthy of a demotion to be a “secondary trait” within the scope of my idea. At the very least, I at least feel bad about making fun of Explosive Ordinance. I’m sorry, little trait :frowning:

Maybe we could replace it as a primary trait with something like “You can now carry two bombs”. Kinda like Grenadier, except 100% reliable as a safe bet, although losing on the fun factor of chucking 5 or 6 bombs at a Rat Ogre.

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At this point I feel like Ranald invests all his goodwill into item dupes and none of it into post-game loot.

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The amount of times I’ve gotten the same exact red illusions multiple times makes me think that he really likes duping things instead of giving me my damn beanie.

I feel like the trait options on jewelry are in a pretty good place. Everyone has some traits that they think are the obvious best choice, but we don’t all agree on what that obvious best choice is. That means that different options fit better with different play styles and abilities, which is great.

Trait options on weapons certainly seem less equal, though. Some of those feel pretty irrelevant and probably should be buffed / tweaked.

But overall I think the system of each item having one trait to choose is fine.

I do kinda like the idea of properties being more a la carte increments, though, and also re-balanced a bit to make some of the trash properties stronger and/or cheaper. 10% Damage Reduction vs AoE, for example, just seems completely pointless. I almost feel like it could be 50% and still be fair. Whether that’s accomplished by changing it to 50% or just by letting you select 10% five times, I don’t really care.


A more simplistic change would like if cant have everything mentioned earlier in this thread.

  • Being able to Mass scrap items instead of the limit of 9 today.

  • fIxing the “freezing” when you mass forge/reroll on items and weapons.

  • Being able to choose one trait or property you can keep on an item before rerolls.
    (would make the RNG alot more bareable)

  • Weapons loosing their “charm” because you get a better one right after?^^
    Make the materials you scrap from them something more interesting you could use them on after, and would be fine with it how it is in the game today.

Kinda find the more NEW properties and talents more interesting then changing the whole crafting though. (if we could have some simple fixses as mentioned above atleast)

Bringing in more new properties and traits leading to more ways to build you Heroes and play with them are always fun!

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I don’t think that we’ll get half the things in the thread, but it’s suggestions for the correct direction to go in. I think reworking crafting to be like Weaves would be step 1, because it’s a direly needed fix. To me, this doesn’t strike me as a very difficult change because they’ve already invested so much of the work in the Weaves’ crafting UI, so the main effort is porting that to the base game. This may be more troublesome if they wrote this code very poorly and it’s hard to re-use for the base game. If they did, I feel very bad for them.

Step 2, which could (and should) come later after they quickly fix crafting itself, is the rebalance of traits and properties as they are now. This can occur independently, but it should occur after the crafting rework so that it’s easier for the community to play with and experiment with changes.

This would be a good change to have and it’s probably still needed, regardless of if my changes go through or not. I think making it so you can salvage more than 9 things at a time would also potentially reduce the amount of requests you make. It may help optimize the system, or it may not.

The problem is that the underlying issue that you’re describing is probably significantly more complex. I don’t know what causes this slowness of the crafting UI. I imagine it’s just overloading the crafting server on their end with too many requests because everyone has to spam rerolls over and over again.

It may be solvable just by scaling up the servers that they have that running on. It may require a significant rewrite of backend code to make the requests go faster.

Just because you can describe the problems in simple terms doesn’t mean that the solution to the problem is simple. I do not think this is probably a little fix at all.

I don’t like this idea of slapping more band-aid fixes like this. How would you propose this fits within the UI? Some extra buttons cluttered on it to “lock” a property when you reroll? How would the backend code need to be rewritten to manage this? Are you imagining it as a separate page like in Vermintide 1 where you rolled the traits and then rolled the individual percentages separately, so it would add a page 9 or 10 to this already complicated UI?

I don’t like investing more development time to make band-aid fixes. The UI is flawed at its very core, I would prefer it be replaced rather than trying to put lipstick on a pig, as the expression goes.

I don’t know what you’re trying to say here. Are you suggesting to make the scrap itself more useful beyond weapon crafting? Either way, eh. I feel like it’d be significantly better to just have an “upgrade power” button like in the Weaves’ crafting.

Instead of costing Essence, have it cost scrap + dust depending on the weapon type. So, it’s like:

  • Upgrade Orange = costs Scrap + Orange Dust

  • Upgrade Blue = costs Scrap + Blue Dust

  • Upgrade Green = costs Scrap + Green Dust

  • Upgrade White = costs Scrap

It’s basically a 1-to-1 copy of the Weaves’ UI, just changing the currency listed on the button itself from Essence to Dust.

That being said, I still am an advocate of just removing the concept of Power entirely, but again, that’s a different thread.

I’m glad you like the ideas as well, but I am very opposed to adding new properties and traits (I think that’s what you meant to say, not talents) before fixing crafting itself.

I really want to play with new ways to build the weapons, but I don’t want to have to try and experiment with them in any system resembling the current crafting system. It needs a serious overhaul.

On top of that, if we simply added the modular UI from the Weaves to the base game where you pick and choose any combination of properties instead of just rolling for two properties, that adds a great deal of depth to the system without even needing to add any new traits or properties.

The best part about the crafting rework I suggested here, in my opinion, is that it is leveraging the work that was already done for Winds of Magic. You may say that you’d be fine with a simpler fix, but I truly think that a large portion of the work was already done. Your minor suggestions are not already done, so they actually seem like more work to me, even if you don’t see it that way.

  • Allowing mass-salvaging is a completely new and different UI. That’s a lot of work.
  • Fixing “freezing” is probably a very nuanced and complicated issue that deals a lot with backend server-side code and may not be easily fixable. That’s a lot of work.
  • Changing rerolling to allow locking properties is new work and it’s not clear how it should work.
  • Changing scrapped materials to have some utility beyond crafting new weapons and rerolling properties sounds like it may be complex, if you’re talking about introducing a new system with a new purpose for crafting material.


Your changes sound more complex than you may think, even though you listed them in a few bullet points. I truly think that my solutions for the crafting problem itself are not complex. The solutions I put forth for the trait/property rework are significantly more complex, but I think they’re a better investment of development time than any band-aid fixes like what you’re saying.

We should address the problem at its core, not look for quick solutions that kinda solve some of the issues. It’s a waste of resources to only half-commit to fixing an issue, because it’s just piling on more code that’s being laid on top of a weak foundation.

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