Well, IDK why, but seems like Trophy Hunter just didn’t work properly with your mod setup on a modded realm #feelingbadman. I had similar issue with Bloodfletcher on a modded realm, while it was working on off realm.
The glaive is still a good weapon, it just isn’t the meta anymore. The drakegun hasn’t been nerfed as far as I know, it’s still the niche weapon it has always been.
The problem with buffs is that DnD is at a fairly high power level, so buffing everything else to competitive levels would be some pretty serious power creep (when legend is already easy enough). On a more practical level, It makes more sense to nerf outliers than to buff nearly every other weapon.
I feel like all this discussion about whether DnD is truly an equal to Dual axes is missing the forest for the trees. The main reason to compare with dual axes in the first place is because both weapons combine high damage and high mobility while hitting a ton of great breakpoints. So let’s just ignore dual axes for a second.
If you were to give DnD to all other careers then it would become meta overnight. Halberd is basically the only competition, being a trade-off of speed/mobility/boss-damage for reach and easy horde clear. Everything else loses significantly on lethality, mobility, or both. The gulf between DnD and weapons like 1h axe or pickaxe is huge.
Shout out to potentially unreasonable builds such as DnD+grudgeraker, DnD+blunderbuss, and IB+DnD+drakefire pistols.
Which leads me back to the question: Why does elf have a weapon that is both so lethal and so mobile? That’s a ultimately a question for the devs, as we aren’t going to magically find the answer in a back and forth here.
Making everything feel equally un-fun to play with seems like a worse solution to power-creep. Seeing as how you linked the video of Grim and Jsat, I figure you would agree with Jsat’s suggestion to lifting the other weapons up to daggers glory and introducing a new game mode to adjust for difficulty so the power-creep isn’t much of an issue.
Am I wrong in my statement that the Grakegun was nerfed due to the Vermintide sub-reddit complaining that is melts hordes too easily? I’ve heard that happened but I haven’t tested the Drakegun personally to see how much it was nerfed. Heard it wasn’t worth using anymore because they nerfed the area cone and dmg.
I tested it again and can now confirm, that indeed the talent was not working properly the first time.
I think there’s a place between everything being un-fun and everything being current DnD. Either way, a harder difficulty sounds like fun.
I don’t know of any nerf to it personally. I couldn’t find any patch note when I skimmed through them either. Apparently it wasn’t in the patch notes? Something related to 1.0.8?
To be honest I haven’t used it in ages because of its incredibly niche role.
Uh huh, which gets used never? Light attacks are typically used for hordes/infantry. Negligible difference.
Push-stab on dual axes and charged on dagger have similar attacks times and usage.
You mean push-stab or charged attack – similar to DD. Or I guess light spam forever? Which no one does.
Still not seeing the big difference between the weapons in terms of usage.
Two melee weapons is useful. But losing ranged makes slayer less effective against whole groups of enemies. Specials and any target that pushes him out of melee. This is a negative.
None of the elf classes have this limitation – except maybe Shade since its kit running DD isn’t great vs. horde and has limited range.
Still not sure you’ve answered the questions here.
No one is claiming “lolz DD op. please nerf.” OP’s post made a lot of sense and was based on testing. DD and dual axes have similar performance – with dagger actually showing better performance. Yet dual axes is a restricted weapon on a class with a built in limitation. It makes sense to question why DD isn’t class restricted in the same way.
Personally i’d just like to see the extra boss damage get little bit tweaked otherwise my main issue rather comes from the lack of other useful weapons.
Jsat pretty much made the argument already in his 1.2 mega balance video which is worth a watch.
Please don’t nerf Dual Daggers. It’s good against everything except for hordes, that’s the only drawback it needs. If it gets nerfed, then we’ll go back to the initial state of the game when it released.
Slight disagreement here. Both are needed, as the game is balanced around certain strength and some weapons are overpowered compared to that, and some are underpowered. The underpowered ones (not so many anymore, but I think the 1-h Axe is one) should be brought up, the overpowered ones (at least Halberd and yes, Dual Daggers) should be brought down. Each weapon should be a roughly equal choice, and as close to the intended power level as possible. Only buffing the weaker ones will introduce power creep, making the game easier in general, and we’ve had some of that already. Not everyone wants to play for the power trip; many (or even most) of us appreciate a reasonable challenge (as all the complaints about Legend being too easy show). Only nerfing the overly strong one has, obviously, the opposite effect of power seep, eventually making things too hard for many players. And as @fuzzydwarf said, changing the outliers on the power scale, that is, bringing stuff closer to the middle level from both ends, is easier and more sensible to do than just one or the other. Less weapons need to be changed that way, and the changes don’t need to be as big.
lolz DD op. please nerf!
See, and this would be a good place for a little laughing emoji button instead of just the heart…
Sigh.
DD op. please nerf
PS:
The dual axes are a good comparison in my opinion but locking dual daggers to shade makes no sense because Kerillian used them already in V1 making all 3 careers proficient in this weapon and you would need to lock the shade out of hagbane to actually force daggers to have a real drawback.
One of the main downsides I see to the shade restriction would be that it’s a little redundant. It’s such a good anti-boss/anti-elite weapon, but you also have the ult to help fulfill that role.
Restricting hagbane has some merits on it’s own, with the obvious downside being the already limited ranged selection of Kerillian. Shade would still have 3 ranged options though.
RV lost drakefire pistols, so not like there isn’t a precedent already.
I will concede that MAYBE the daggers are a bit too strong at current levels, so maybe a combination of a slight nerf to the dagger but rightfully a major nerf or rework for other weapons is needed. As to how to properly do it, well, that’s a lot of number crunching and game theory that would require a mass amount of time to do well. I hope Fatshark gets off it’s collective lazy asses to make some of these reworks so we can enjoy the game in it’s fullest.
Comparing dual daggers to dual axes in a vacuum is meaningless. Yes, they are roughly the same power. Personally, I’d say that the 4 best melee weapons in the game are, in no particular order, dual daggers, dual axes, halberd, and glaive. You can argue about which one is better, but they are all extremely good. Saltzpyre, sienna, and non-slayer bardin’s weapons simply aren’t as good. This is very obvious when you compare how many bardins use 1h/2h hammers and how many krubers use 1h mace/2h hammer. They are some of the best weapons available for bardin, but they are heavily overshadowed on kruber.
Now, lets look at kits. First, lets look at non-sienna ranged careers. If we ignore the weapons available, bounty hunter is almost certainly the best. Constant crits, infinite ammo, and a powerful offensive ult is an extremely powerful combination. He is almost certainly the best option for sniping elites. The tradeoff is that his melee weapon selection is sort of shitty. Falchion isn’t terrible, but it isn’t halberd/glaive/dual daggers. Huntsman’s kit is significantly weaker. That said, halberd is pretty damn good in general, handgun/longbow provides enough punch against elites, and ult gives him an escape. Overall, he’s amply functional. Waystalker arguably has the weakest kit (no escape, can actually run out of ammo if you spam too much, and health regen doesn’t go that far on double grim legend runs), and her ranged weapons aren’t notably good against chaos warriors, but she gets great waveclear with hagbane and daggers are great against elites. Compared to bounty hunter or huntsman, she is much more reliant on using melee vs elites, but she has access to a melee weapon that is really good against elites to even that out. That’s called balance.
Melee careers are similar. Zealot gets absurd amounts of temp health, a powerful attack speed steroid, 50% dr, and the ability to ignore death every 2 minutes. That’s an insanely powerful kit. The tradeoff is that he doesn’t have great melee weapons. He needs that power, because it will take him a while to melee down that chaos warrior. By contrast, foot knight just gets a bunch of hp, a powerful knockdown, and a much more reasonable amount of dr. That’s a lot less powerful, but he gets the halberd to make up for it. Handmaiden gets amazing agility and powerful weaponry, but she pays for it by being nearly as squishy as a ranged character. She can avoid hits for days, but if she messes up and eats a stormvermin overhead, it will ruin her. Also, her weapons are very powerful offensively, but she doesn’t have the steroids that the other melee classes have. Dual daggers are great, but falchion can start to compete if you give it a 20% power boost and a 25% attack speed boost. And then you have slayer. He has powerful defensive boosts, powerful offensive boosts, good mobility, and one of the best melee weapons in the game. In many ways, he has the best tools from both handmaiden and zealot. The tradeoff is that he doesn’t get a ranged weapon. Again, balance. Most melee characters have to choose between getting good weapons and getting good kits. Slayer gets both, but he trades away his ranged weapon instead.
Honestly, the game balance doesn’t seem that terrible overall. Many/most weapons are at least viable on any difficulty level, and even the weakest kits can hard carry legend when played well. Balance isn’t perfect, but it really isn’t that bad either.