Is There a Reason Fatshark Hates Veteran?

‘Ragebait title’ I know, but seriously, is there? Like, this is the third time their tree has been completely revamped, and somehow I feel EVEN WORSE than any other time I’ve ran around as veteran.

As a Disclaimer, I been ‘touching grass’ and took a break from the game for the past few months. Was wonderful, coming back to the game has actually been ‘surprisingly’ enjoyable, the new ration event is a blast, the new trees (for the most part) are great, I don’t see a single Arbite anywhere in Auric and it’s utterly fantastic. Life’s been good!

But then I get to Veteran…and do let me know if I’m ‘missing something’, but actually wtf? I mainly say this comparing the previous ‘glass cannon’ class, Psyker, and ALLL the favoritism (of which I appreciate, I like them too), it got, and then going to Veteran, and seeing a few token things updated, and it’s survivability absolutely gutted.

Now, don’t get me wrong, I was one of the many complaining about Tactical Awareness as well, I understand it was unhealthy, and completely agree with it getting worked over. But gutted this badly? Bruiser was one thing, but elites are a dime a dozen these days, and it procs off your allies getting the kill too, so it’s practically always ticking when you need it and generally feels totally fine. But strictly specialist kills?!? and ONLY IF YOU GET IT?!? Like what in the warp f$ck is that sh!t?!? Infiltrate is completely unusable now (even despite it getting the damage baked into the initial ability), Executioner stance? Pff, you might get 10% toughness a second but better hope you’re spaming those kills cause if you drop it ever you’re toast. Ohh there was just a massive wave of Mobius 21st running at you and you got like 5-10 seconds without a special unit/only Elites or once? Welllll you’re practically not a character anymore. Snipers 1 tap you from full thanks to the gunner changes meaning if you don’t run 2 resists of those you’re f’d, bursters still have your number, and the small saving grace of the 5% toughness DR node you got simply for breathing was entirely removed, leaving only the incredibly cumbersome 10% DR node sitting far off in the corner far and away from the melee side of the tree that would actually care to have it.

And I wouldn’t complain so much if the other classes where left the same, Veteran has hardly changed/mostly gotten buffed beyond Tactical Awareness right? Well, while they are sitting here desperately searching for a crumb of toughness regen, relying off the same 2% off Confirmed kill they always had (that was nerfed a while back from 3%, let me remind you) and the barely sustainable full toughness refreshes from their CA’s, lets take a look over at Psyker and Zealot shall we…

Ohh, the Psyker gets 25% HEALTH AND TOUGHNESS DR for breathing now do they? + another 10% for good measure, 15% flat toughness DR on their tree (down from 20%, the horror), and the same old standby of One with the Warp continuing to be the goat? Ohh? and mettles now 2% toughness per second now? for critting? with 5% per second for a weakspot melee kill, 3% per second for a soulblaze kill, and all the already existing toughness regen that served them INCREDIBLY well already still at their disposal/made even better with quell and generation toughness being one talent now? Ohh, and scriers gives DR at base now too, just in case you felt a little flimsy in melee combat, pat pat pat. Psykinetic Aura got nerfed, sure, but it procs off EVEry kill by EVERy ally, you don’t need to get them anymore! So I’ve actually found my abilities up MORE often than previously, because now I don’t have to steal all of them to get back to my ability!

My Psyker now be like ‘burster? I hardly know her’, while my Veteran, the class who’s entire backstory is they where the one that lived, falls over to a stiff breeze, and even if he doesn’t has no tools to get back in the fight beyond running away and not getting melee’d for 5 seconds, something becoming INCREASINGLY HARD TO DO with all the elite spam all over the place.

(In case you think I’m kidding about the psyker thing:

Zealot is a little bit more of a ‘reserved’ case, but while their ‘double dipping’ CDR was finally dealt with, they still do JUST fine with the ability to keep it active infinitely regardless of what choice they decide now (backstabs? na, weakspt hits). You lil veteran want to get your shout back in 15seconds? Better see a specialist every 3 AND get the kill on it! Meanwhile, I can choose to just crit, weakspot/backstab HIT, or just be at low HP and get golden toughness every 30. Sure, there’s downtime, but what am I doing during that downtime? getting up to 7.5% toughness per second based on how surrounded I am, getting another 3% per second after an Elite kill if I so choose (Veteran could nev-oh wait it USED TO), and 2% per second while in fury, up to 4% per second with Judgement, or just having OBSCENE DR going down the middle with Martyr. Did I mention the like 14 (I didn’t count but like, close?) new talents that all create really nice little play styles and synergies that all feel really nice and help make the ‘blow’ of not having my ability up every 2 seconds feel completely worth it?

I just…you ‘modernize’ Psyker and Zealot into this ‘post Arbite/Ogryn’ world masterfully, then slap a middle finger on Veteran and give them a funny little sparking tooth pick for good measure (the Falchine). Is this because we all complained about the Veteran weapon not being out yet? Do you just not want Veteran players to exist anymore? Cause that’s what it feels like. Their entire purpose is to equip Survivalist (for all the good it does these days), have demolition stockpile + Demo team, and just REALLY hope you are just hitting that 5% + the regen all the times you need to just litter the field with grenades, while bringing along upgraded kits for good measure. Everyone else gets to be people, you just sit behind them and really hope nothing gets by. I just, don’t get it.

TLDR: Can Vets get like, a consistent form of toughness regen that they have control over like everyone else (Catch a Breath is nice but compared to breathing on every other class and getting 2%+ a second it just doesn’t compare, and unerf confirmed kill if nothing else)? And can we get some form of DR that isn’t reliant on having ammo and swapping to your gun EVERY 8 seconds? The Psyker gets to ignore damage now, why is the veteran the only class that gets blown up by a stiff breeze? The Tactical Awareness nerf really shows just how much the class was crutching on having a full heal every 5-10 seconds, and seeing every other class (Zealot and Psyker) get tools to compensate while the Veteran just languishes in squealer feels real bad. (Granted, I feel all of my complaining would be instantly rectified if Exhilarating Takedown was changed to ALL weakspot kills, melee or ranged, and gave you 15% toughness over 5 seconds instead of just a flat 15% toughness upon doing so. I’d be happy with that/that would likely fix all of my woes).

Edit: Yeah, after playing some more, I only re-double my statements. Many seem to want to bring up ohh he does so much DAMAGE now and it’s like wow, how useless when he spends half the time dead or on the ground bleeding! : D . He can melt a monstrosity in seconds, but so can literally every other character, even Psyker now given they finally have a damage node for it. Meanwhile, I’m sitting here having to play the Veteran like how I used to have to play the Psyker, an absolute coward. Holding S constantly, taking the 5% movement speed node just to eek out that extra distance away from the enemy, never using my Combat Ability offensively and strictly relegating it to defensive use because it will just NEVER be up when you need it if you use it to enter an engagement, and spamming grenades when all else fails just to still die to a ‘teleports behind you’ back hit poxwalker that does all of my toughness and half my HP because I was at 74% toughness cause of a gunner or something. 10% DR node doesn’t help, Exhilarating Takedown continues to be insanely situational/actively useless if you’re not just wasting shots into the wave, and his tree somehow STILL feels bloated despite having basically all of the tax nodes removed just due to the sheer number of talents you have to get through to get anywhere and how all the talents just say ‘increase stat by X%’. Close Quarters Killzone and Marksman (along with the VoC effect) all getting reduced to 10 seconds on top of the CDR nerf is just the icing on the corrupt ration cake for it all, making it physically impossible to keep all the buffs active even if you DO somehow have enough special spam to last 15 seconds of cooldown time. Toughness regen in the dirt, toughness DR none existent outside of 1-2 hits worth, but don’t worry guys he can wipe a wave of crushers with one Boltgun clip. What do you mean the Psyker can do that and kill everything else with a jet of blue flame that gives him 5+% toughness per second?

That all said, obviously with his entire tree being damage nodes he can still function, but there’s a reason I bring up the whole ‘modernization’ idea. In a post Ogryn and Arbite world, where it’s clear the Dev’s don’t want to ever go back, Zealot and Psyker got the tools to not just compete, but thrive on their own in much the same way the other two do, in their own respective ways. Psyker continuing to be my direct comparison of ‘the class that used to be a glass cannon but now is just a cannon’, where you can easily take hits without even noticing it thanks to all the DR you can stack on top of infinite toughness regeneration. Veteran just ‘missed the boat’, and they are still playing ‘post talent tree update’ Darktide while everyone else is playing ‘Bound by Duty’ Darktide. One can easily tell the difference by just walking into an Auric game and seeing the number of fresh psykers running around holding smite yet again and afking in the corner, but where as before they got punished eventually and likely died, they just never die and live without issue now. Meanwhile anything but a seasoned Veteran drops the moment anything goes wrong and more often than not more than once. It’s the whole argument of ‘if less effort produces the same/better results, why is the Veteran forced to try so hard?’ On the one hand, I guess it’s nice for the people that like the playstyle of ‘afk behind your team and pray nothing spawns behind you’ (as can be seen by most of the comments in this thread/most of the people on the forum still). But for a Veteran that used to really like the melee playstyle you could get away with with potent Voice usage and good priority targeting, having that functionally removed, and both of his other combat abilities functionally deleted, just because a little shout gave a bit to much golden HP for what it was doing, is just Nurgles backside.

Veteran is just a Survivalist, Demo team, and kit upgrade body that yells sometimes now, and is the first to fall over if anything goes amiss. And I greatly miss the commanding officer that ran in with his team and got just as many kills as his cohorts while laughing about it. Veteran used to be THE class for weapon variety and ‘making anything work’ due to the modifiers he could force down the throat of whatever he put on, now he’s just a bot with 1 meta build (as Hrupo pointed out) and the ability to pick between Plasma/Boltgun and Duelling/Power Sword. ‘What is your purpose?’ ‘to throw krak grenades at stupidly high health armor targets or shredders to bleed down a wave, then die to a crusher overhead the psyker just lived through with 15HP’ ‘ohh my emperor’.

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Veteran is really strong post talent rework. I don’t think this thread is gonna go very well. You’re forced into close order drill which is 33% DR, you have Iron Will which gives more DR, catch a breath is great as long as you don’t take hits, and every keystone has toughness replenishment that is basically free and always active because you’ll be using them a lot. Thats in addition to the standards like confirmed kill, and the new talent that grants you extra toughness on ANY kill.

Psyker is the ultimate beneficiary of the recent rework, but Veteran ate VERY well and they have said they aren’t done tweaking the tree.

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Vet is literally the strongest they’ve ever been

like the class went from d tier to like s tier and got actual build variety

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Fatshark’s constant disregard for Veteran is nowadays more found in the anti-range bias that Havoc has. Why else would they have entire modifier sets just to punish using ranged weapons?

As for why, it seems like a bandaid to weapon balance overall and that Fatshark seems to struggle to positively incentivise melee or ranged use without making preferring one over the other a punishiment.

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The main problem I have with Veteran rework is that they largely build the same way they did pre rework, just with some more freedom to choose which grenade they want and getting rid of some tax nodes for some extra points.

It isn’t a bad thing yes, I just think it’s kind of boring that you still have to go the mandatory left side of the tree for 30% weakspot and ammo, then the mandatory Tactical Awareness for CDR regen. Now post-rework go right-side for Skirmisher since it’s free 30% damage and on the way there you pick up the arguably just as mandatory finesse damage on melee.

From there if you’re playing Havoc and want the meta build go focus target and pick up demolition team on the way. Basically same exact way they built last patch.

Veteran is strong as hell though, especially in Havoc where most teams are wiping by being overwhelmed with armor and/or bosses, Krak grenade + Focus Target build solves all those problems. Personally I think Psyker is the strongest class right now since the patch.

Forgot to mention the mandatory ammo aura + shout. Other classes have variety there too atleast even at high havoc.

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Psyker is definitely just a dumb and broken class that has gotten continually more dumb and broken since patch 13 but its a really hard sell to claim Zealot > Veteran right now. Especially when at best Zealot is a melee deamon for damage with nothing leftover for support or a mediocre support with mediocre damage. They also do better with the same weapons for raw melee damage because they all favor finesse damage and you also get rending. Basically all Zealot can do better there is attack speed. But I think window shopping other classes’ buffs instead of looking at the sum of all parts is a bad approach. Veteran’s very competent in the current game and probably should have several free damage nodes adjusted either in uptime or amount. But the entire numbers game on the talent tree could go for some toning down, especially with dumb things like Arbites getting around 200% melee damage for walking around before smacking something triggering Concussive and a whole bunch more damage from stagger buffs.

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players hate veteran, and fatshark listen to feedbacks and act accordingly, the result is that Vet got ruined in patch 13 forever, the only things that they kept for now are grenades, but there are already people who complains about vet grenades being too strong on the forum

i don’t care about grenades, my ideal veteran plays with no grenade talents

Vet has turned into an awful class who rely on garbage mechanics like RNG, minigames and golden toughness

what they did to volley fire/executioner’s stance is awful, just as awful as the fact that any decent build doesn’t include reload talents in the equation

the best thing that happened to veteran in the last 3 years is the ability to equip duelling sword

the new talent tree reworks only added more insult to injury, its better than the old one don’t get me wrong, but they doubled down on their same old trend of telling players to play those talents and abilities they don’t want to play and shove it

i’m happy that voice of command took a hit, so that players like OP gets a wake up call that Vet without his crutches is a load of garbage

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Tbh i think it’s Me that’s missing something because, by Big E, are the opinions of Veterans divided. I think the main reason is scoreboard mod because it’s impossible to gauge oneself if you’re 4 competent players.

I’m just gonna throw some things out, you tell me if my thoughts are hot or cold.

  • Veteran is capable of dishing out one of the highest damage outputs outside of broken OP builds

  • Veteran rework allows Veteran access to more builds and weapons than before

  • Buffs to all elites totally invalidates second point and enforces the meta build everyone was already familiar with

  • Veteran talents are very strong but have kill-based triggers

  • Kill-based talents are directly diminished by the skill level (or broken OP build) of the rest of the team

Does that sound correct?

Like, I do use the scoreboard mod (VT2 version), and it is hard to deny when I see the Relic Blade zealot with 800 melee kills did 200k less damage than the Veteran who went down 3 times.

I really don’t know what to say about that besides just a general grumpyness over the gap between meta and non-meta feeling wider now.

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Remove the low CD team wide 120% instant toughness gen ability that grants virtual invulnerability then maybe the Vet can get real toughness generation.

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This is certainly a take of all time

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Got to think about what is being cooled down when you evaluate CDR talents and changes to CDR talents.

And yeah, this does mean the existence of one ult can screw over the other two.

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I think some Vet main hate Vet more than anyone else at this point tbh, it was understandable pre-patch because build variety issue but even now? lol.

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Veteran currently strongest pick in havok becasue of grenades that delete armor and bosses and gold toughness together in one character.

Dream team is like shielded ogryn for max stagger, infernmo bubble psyker and 2 vets.

But again. Build variety? Veteran is most meta-bound than ever. One ultimate, one weapon, melee branch. All trash talents removed, all usefull streamlined in center, dont miss it.

Still needs more nerfs, make gold toughness not block overheads, snipers and bursters pls, and then it’ll be perfect

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i think it was balanced when golden toughness was first introduced, it could block those but only if the bar was full

they decided to change it, of course, they always change things, they sell you something, you buy it, and then they change it, its fraudulent

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Vet is one of the strongest Melee classes, and that is the problem. Gameplay basically does not differentiate from other classes. It’s becoming more and more the norm to not even pull out a ranged weapon, just melee everyting. Rather run to the enemy that’s far away than bother shooting it. And that is a massive problem for the game atm….

Play Vet Comissair archetype, you can have some fun, especially since Chain Sword is usable now. But try using a Lasgun, especially an infantry lasgun, you will hate yourself.

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That’s Infantry Lasgun’s problem more than anything.

Vet with Recon-Las, Bolter, Plasma, Helbore or even Las pistol doesn’t feel weak to me.

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The certainty with which you people make those claims and big proclamations seems rather problematic as well…

You don’t like vets doing melee and that’s fine, but if you want to conjure and summon massive problems you got the bathroom for that!

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I don’t like vet doing melee better than Zealot unless said Zealot invests fully into damage and nothing on resistance

Meanwhile vet can give gold toughness, throw 4 kraks with the chance of some of them being duplicated, still get huge TDR, and still deals that melee damage Zealot does

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Vet is strong in melee in terms of damage output thanks to a lot of the talent reworks (and getting access to the dueling sword) but still has structural class issues that make “being in melee” more dangerous for Vet than any other class.

Now that Psyker got tons of love for melee psyker I think its fair to state that Vet is the most perilous class to just maintain constant melee focus. It’s just that played very well / perfectly you can deal more damage than a Zealot, but you’re still dealing with worse stamina economy, double damage taken on sprint, power sword activation tax, toughness regen talents that reward NOT being in melee, and dodge economy.

I agree that ranged gameplay is disfavored overall, but a lot of that is because of Havoc and the structural issues with that entire mode being the “end game”.

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