Improve the Rapier

Ok, I see. Though I don’t get it guys. You all tell me that axe was capable of cleaving something. But when i tested it in the field, it could hit 2 regular rats at once max. Though now I realize, I never tested it on hordes.

But whatever, have no reason not to trust you.

Well I go all the way back to Closed Beta, so I remember them very well, and how I used each one.

Because back then, and after release… I really DID use all of them for different things. Now that’s out the window.

They used to blend really well into one another, but no longer, not after all the nerfs… incidental or otherwise, its been like a chain reaction that took one out after another and broke everything.

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Ok you know I should probably give you an idea of just how far this circle jerk goes and how this chain reaction hosed up the Balance of ALL the Saltzpyre melee weapons and where it comes into play.

We’ll start with Step 1.

Step 1. The Alt Fire Rapier pistol nerf…
Back in Beta the Rapier’s Alt Fire Pistol actually did full damage out to about where the Brace of Pistols did. It wasn’t really a problem either. Mostly because of how clunky the thing is to use. So you missed a lot at any type of medium range… still anything within about 10-15 yards you could hit and kill.

One problem… The Bounty Hunter’s passive…
The Alt-Fire Pistol is counted as a Melee Kill… not a ranged kill.
(Previously this weapon was not usable by the Zealot, and may not have been by BH either. I don’t remember whether it was or not)
So… the Bounty Hunter could reset their Crit Passive at range just by killing something with the Alt-Fire Pistol… and then instantly have their Crit back. Which was not intended since it was supposed to be a Melee kill to do it with.

So they nerfed it so it only did max damage out to 10 feet, ie… where it is now… so it couldn’t really kill anything at Range… Rather than, you know be smart like… Make it a WHC weapon ONLY …or locking out the Alt-Fire portion on BH.

Taking this HUGE balance factor of the Rapier vs Falchion out of the equation.
(vs Two handed sword eventually)

So now its just clunky, pointless, and little more than a gimmick.

Step 2. Patch 1.05 Accidental Nerf.
Patch 1.05 was indeed necessary. They had miscalculated the Hero Power threshhold so all weapons were doing more stagger, cleave, and damage than they were supposed to be doing… one problem… Half the jobs in the game relied on the intended Power level… or their passives and skills would have no actual effect on the game. So half the jobs in the game became useless.

Unfortunate Side Effect: The Axe which never had much cleave in the first place, and only provided minimal horde clearing ability… lost ALL of it. So whenever you used the Axe… it would get you killed in a Horde.

So as to where there used to be a smooth transition between the Axe, Rapier, and Falchion with regards to their capabilities (Horde Clearing vs Armor Piercing vs Shield Users vs Elites)… The chain was broken, because the Axe no longer provide even the minimal horde support it used to… leaving only the Rapier and Falchion as survivable weapons in a horde and breaking the smooth transition between them all.

Step 3. The Two Handed Sword Buffs…
Greatly increased the viability of the Two handed Sword… one problem… They forgot to increase the Reach… so it was STILL the same reach as the Falchion and less Reach than the Rapier. So all those improvements were for nothing. Since the Falchion had similar cleave and stagger and was much faster. So it made a better Two handed Sword than the actual 2 handed Sword.

Problem number 1… This of course made the Falchion seem like it COULD do anything and was better at everything than every other weapon… (See Step 1, and Step 2… to see why this magically and mysteriously poofed into existence… and wouldn’t be a problem had those two things never happened)

Problem number 2… IF they actually DID increase the Reach… the Two Hander would FAR overshadow the Rapier’s main job as a Horde Clearing Weapon. BUT… that wouldn’t be a problem had they not NERFED the Alt Fire Pistol Shot in the first place as that would still be a balance factor for the Rapier and no one would care.

So even if the Rapier had lost its Primary Spot at Horde Clearing to the Two Handed Sword… It still could kill targets at Range where none of the other weapons could. Hence Fat Shark COULD extend the Reach of the Two hander to be longer than the Rapier… and not the idiotic reach of a dinky little Short Sword (Falchion).

(And likely Kruber’s would give the Halberd a run for its money too)

Step 5: The Falchion Nerf…
…and the last straw that finally broke the back of the Melee Weapons. With the only weapon that HADN’T been Nerfed left… of course its able to do everything. QUICK NERF THAT TOO… Its UNbalanced…

Oh wait… its really not.

The ONLY reason the Falchion looked that was was because of… Step 1, Step 2, Step 3, and Step 4, which lead to Step 5.

SO NOW…

We come to the end of this big Circle Jerk…

At this point the ONLY way for Fat Shark to fix all this… is to GO BACK and Remove ALL the previous nerfs that were either intentional due to bad decision making… or accidental due to the necessities of the Patch.

Because right now the Balance between the Weapons which Started out really good…

Is now in the Tank…

See how this ONE little nerf you thought was a good idea snowballed out of control?

EDIT: They basically screwed themselves because they had the right balance from the beginning… and then screwed it all up.

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The axe is a tough customer in V1 too compared to the other options. It can work there because the horses are so much smaller. V2 though I can’t even imagine trying to make it work except maybe with volley Xbow for wave clear

Well prior to patch 1.05 it actually did and was good, I used it a lot in some missions like Empire in Flames, because it was the perfect weapon for handling the ending portion with all the Chaos minions that come at you. And back then it didn’t lose any real Horde Clearing ability,

You could cleave about 3 targets in a horde with it. So it wasn’t as good as the Rapier or Falchion for it… but at least you weren’t helpless in a Horde either.

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I felt like I was reading a top-notch detective story. Thanks.

To be fair idk why it was looked at, because there is Glaive and there is Halberd, that clearly can do everything, that Falchion was capable of, but also have reach.

But let’s hope FS does not realize that in the near future, else there is gonna be 3 melee weapons left, all belonging to Bardin.

Also let me quote myself, since I already voiced my concernes about this topic beforehands:

I don’t even know where to begin…

Rapier pistol has been buffed imo, it now deals a lot more damage than before up close. Think of it as an extension of your melee for things like maulers/bosses and it becomes very powerful when you cancel your shots with light attacks. I can 2 shot a mauler with zealot, BH 1 shots marauders, and WHC needs a bit more power stacking and ping to 2 shot maulers. It also basically doubles (or more) your boss dps when fighting non-armoured bosses.

Axe has been buffed in the latest patch so it now cleaves 2 fanatics and hits faster by 0.1s each swing.

2h sword’s reach has always been an issue about realism. The devs covered this already: you can reach much further using 1 hand than with 2 hands and they already buffed the range slightly so that it hits just outside of its model’s reach. It wouldn’t make sense to have it hit stuff that is obviously out of its swing, would definitely look funny to other people.

Falchion’s nerf was pretty needed IMO. Having so much armour pen on light attacks means you didn’t need to use the heavy attacks. Falchion was already considered the top melee for saltz in v1 and it didn’t even have armour pen on light attacks. It still is very strong as it is now, you only have to actually use some skill and use charged attacks on armoured targets.

Flail has been improved as well, now giving armour pen to all light attacks.

For the 100th time.

Axe and 2h sword might be buffed but they are still useless in legend and if you play this game long enough thats all you care about.
Falchion was equal to Rapier and even subpar to some other careers melee weapons that didnt get nerf (yet).

Btw did WHC or Zealot really need a nerf at all (even if its in form of weapon nerf) ?

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Unless there is some weird range discrepancy between kerillian and salt, the glaive shouldn’t have anymore reach.
I am not sure the falchion nerf was really intended as a nerf, it seems more that they wanted the heavy attacks to be your go-to anti-armor option, but since both had the same pen of 0.5, there was little point in using them for that so you often just spammed lights.

But the 2h sword has about the same reach as the falchion. How is that about realism/looking funny? Pretty much all weapons except the halberd/spear have about the same reach, the 1h hammer has about the same as the 2h one, which has about the same as the dual axes etc.
Ever seen a slayer use them? It does look rather funny.
Why do 1h weapons get to reach so much further than their model, but the obviously larger 2h don’t?

Because when using a 2h weapon you need to brace backwards so you don’t topple forwards plus 2 hands means you have less arm reach. On the other hand, with 1 hand you can not only lean forwards, you can twist your upper torso for even more reach, all without overbalancing forwards. Go take a stick and work out how that works for yourself, you’d be surprised.

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Except that generally speaking two handed weapons are a whoooole lot bigger, so they tend to have more reach. A one handed weapon might have more in a lunge, but you can lunge one handed with most “two handed” weapons so even that isn’t the case really.

A falchion vs even a longsword isn’t even close. Versus an actual greatsword you’re talking about the difference in reach in feet. Even in a lunge the greatsword will outrange the falchion and do it with quite a lot of safety.

And since we’re talking two specific weapons why not show Matt Easton screwing around in his backyard?
Greatsword


Falchion

Greatsword has years more range because it’s blade is nearly as long as your arm and the falchion combined. Of course the Falchion is a hell of a lot quicker and you can bring a shield.

Raiper itself is not a issue…its good weapon, if not best in hands of player who practiced alot.
Issue is WHC low health pool, only 100 health, which is rediculusly low for melee hero, and I see no reason behind it, even some ranged heroes got more HP.

Which means:
-U are extremly prone to Friendly fire
-Your worst enemies are rats which you not notice, even single paesant rat can screw your day if somehow sneak out of your sight.
-I also find big issue when one of your mates push rats and some of them somehow end behind you, or they wound rat but not kill it…like hit rat once, then u think this guy is dead, you turn camera and this rat raises and bash you.
-In additonal, WHC is class designed to not take damage at all, which mean u need to dodge alot, dance around your enemies, which makes WHC bad pick with group composition which restrict movement…like u got beam mage and flamethrower dwarf in same group (this group composition will restrict your movement and u are eventualy screwed)
-On 100HP pool any attack your reicive is devastating, and really feels damaging
-You are also very prone to lagg hits… 1 good lag hit can end your day (anyone get lag hit from time to time, but belive me they feel less issue on someone with 125hp or 150hp , than on you with 100hp.
-Because low health pool u cant be confident like other heroes, instead doing damage, u always reeling back in fear that they woud hit you, which ultimatly leads to feeling that raiper deal no enough damage which is wrong. Raiper is good, issue is lays in damage uptime due low health pool

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Very much this imo.

Well, while playing Shade I often try to find answer to the question “Why some melee careers have only 100hp?”. Sometimes you get hit by rats/chaos creeps, sometimes Salty(BH) uses his ultie in your back, gnomes with grudgerakers etc.

So we’re making “realism” argument here about melee combat. Oh boy, I am so excited; where do I start?

First of all, let’s get settled with names, since 1h sword and 2h sword - are gaming terms, and are not that widely used in real life. Of course they are, but the terms are too wide and designate dozens of different weapons. So we are obviously talking about Arming sword and Longsword here.

Now for their stats.
Arming sword: average length 90 cm, average weight: 1.1 kg.
Longsword: average length 115 cm, average weight 1.55 kg. (link)

And here is fun fact #1, that you can instantly see - Longsword only weights about 50% more, while being held with two hands for twice the power. What that means, is that a longsword is actually EASIER to operate, and it should attack FASTER than arming sword.

Another fun fact, that comes from its weight, is that this argument

becomes completely irrelevant. 1.5 kg is nothing even for a not so strong male. It is obvious, that such a weight is not gonna pull you forward or make you lose your balance. Especially, since the weight IS BALANCED by the grip and the pommel, which makes it so the sword feels weightless. And longswords grip was usually made pretty lengthy, so it could be used as a leverage, which made handling the sword EVEN EASIER.

Now for the reach. An average length difference between the two is only 25cm. An average difference for a straight hand vs a bent one is 15cm (measured on myself). But a person using one hand, could also use their shoulder to increase the reach, so I’d say it is about the same. So this argument

is more or less viable, except for the “much further” part.

But there is one nuance. If you use your shoulder to increase the reach, it will take you much more time to recover from a hit. And we already know, that longswords should be faster, if we’re talking about realism. So if the reach is the same, arming sword should be MUCH slower, than a longsword. And if there is no leaning, if you just spam hits left and right, then longsword should have about 10% more reach.

I should notice, though, that there is one field, where arming sword beats longsword - thrusts. As I said, because of shoulder usage, the reach is gonna be a little bigger, and recover time will be the same for both longsword and arming sword. Though longsword is not that weighty and can be thrusted with one hand for even bigger reach.

Conclusion:
1h sword does not stand a chance against 2h sword or any other 2h weapon in the open field. It was meant to be used in conjunction with shield, from a horseback, in tight formations or as a backup weapon.
2h sword, on the other hand, was designed to excel in the hand of a skilled weilder, though it had its usage in formations too, for example for breaking enemy spears. Some heaver swords were also created for wall to wall fighting, but that’s another story.
2h sword should be faster, hit harder and have a slightly further reach, if we are talking about realism.

Also, here is a couple of vids about sword fighting that are must-see: video1, video2.
And a couple of vids about armored combat: armored combat 1, armored combat 2.

No…

If you read anything I just said… you’d realize how that opinion you hold just screwed everything up and screwed the balance of all Saltzpyres weapons… which prior to that were actually very well balanced with each other.

Ie… that made it worse… not better. When it actually DID have good weapon balance from the very beginning.

Its the prime example of trying to fix something that wasn’t broken and then hosing the whole thing up with a chain reaction of events.

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Most likely a myth. There’s no obvious scenario where a wooden shaft can be easily broken except on a bench against an axe. Try chopping wood with a machete, now wood that’s coming at you en masse with murderous intent.

They would also do nil damage against heavy armors. Although they already are pretty bad for legend

Attack cancelling the pistol gives so much DPS, but is so clunky to use. I still wish it was coherent with the BOP, even if it meant giving it limited ammo. Like if you could block and still fire (at BOP range) with the off-hand.

I don’t think the Falchion is still viable against armor for the BH because I couldn’t get less than 3 charged headshots, but BH can deal with armors by using ranged weapons anyway.
It’s a pretty straightforward hack&slash weapon any way you look at it. There’s not giving it a complex pattern.

WHC has good temp health recovery since he’s a great mob killer any way he’s built.
I don’t know of any ranged career that doesn’t have 100hp, except if you consider Unchained a ranged career.
His active also gives decent staying power since it can be used as a panic button, instantly knocking enemies.

I think that the worst part about the WHC is that you have a cooldown for marking enemies and your teammates mostly DON’T BOTHER to mark enemies. It’s excruciating.

You quoted the wrong person in that one Birdman,

That wasn’t me that said that… it was dieaready. Who apparently is completely ignorant of how all this came to be.

I actually agree with you the Falchion nerf was pointless and unneeded. And only made the situation worse. It needs to be reversed.

Now ALL the Saltz weapons are out of whack and all of the progressive nerfs that were made to the other weapons has destroyed the previously good balance between them all.

They just added the Falchion to the pile of screw ups they made. IN a long line of bad decisions that created chain reaction leading to a self fulfilling conclusion.

Quote of a quote. I thought it would work, but didn’t. This forums are good, but lack many posting features.

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Not a problem man…

This is my original post on the subject. It goes through the total clusterfk that happened that lead to the pointless nerf of the Falchion.

And why it and all the things that lead up to it need to be reversed.

EDIT: Basically Fat Shark needs to go back and reverse everything they’ve done since Beta just to get the weapons back on track to the good balance they all had between them before. THEN extend the Reach of the Two Handed Sword so it doesn’t have the same reach as a dinky little short sword (aka the Falchion). And obviously remove the Nerfs on the Falchion as well which just made the situation even worse.

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