Ideas on how to Buff under-powered/used weapons

Warhammer: Vermintide 2 Gameplay Feedback
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This is quite basically about throwing around ideas and thoughts on how to buff underused and/or underpowered weapons.

I know, I know, its likely been done about a dozen times, and Fatshark actually implementing any of these idea is unlikely, but eh, could be fun.

Let’s start with Sienna’s Mace, as there is currently a thread about how bad it is.

IMO, a good way to start would be to add DOTs to its attacks. Flat out, all of them, not just the initial power attack. Also, one would ideally increase the Cleave on the secondary Power Attacks, so it would be possible to chain the Power Attack Sweeps into a horde, while also inflicting a wide DOT.

Secondly, Kerrilian’s Greatsword.

Now, this suffers from a similar problem to Sienna’s Mace, in that the only attack primarily worth using is the Thrust Power Attack, along with the secondary Sweep Power Attack. The light sweeps are poorly-placed to hit multiple heads without excellent aim, and thus suffer in the midst of a horde on higher difficulties, along with its very low-feeling cleave.

A possible solution that’s been brought up is changing the patterns of the sweep animation to a more gentle curve, like Saltzpyre/Kruber’s Greatswords. That is exceedingly unlikely to happen. The extra 25% Push attack Crit Chance buff was useful, and I suggest adding something similar on the Secondary Power Sweep. That certain attack is very well placed for a clean sweep across heads, and I think it could very well benefit from the same treatment. For the Light Attack Sweeps, I am sadly bereft of a solution.

Thirdly, Saltzpyre’s Falchion.

While sadly outclassed by the mere fact the Falchion+Axe exists at all, and I’ve seen it used since the DLC approximately two-to-three times, it could use certain buffs to bring it back to a more viable level.

Ideally, I would begin by increasing the Shields/Stamina to 3 Shields/6 Stamina. Having 2 Shields/4 Stamina is just too little. Secondly, it would be better to increase the armor damage on the Power Attacks. Perhaps a little more Cleave, and I think it would become a respectable one-handed alternative to the Greatsword.

Fourth, and finally for me, the Shotguns. The Blunderbuss/Grudgeraker.

I am not certain why Fatshark decided to ‘fix’ the ‘bug’ that allowed one to get back ammunition by bashing with the weapon. I vaguely remember people complaining about ‘infinite ammunition’, but even looking at from then to now, what ranged class does not have theoretical access to ‘Infinite ammunition’ anyway? Bounty Hunter with Scrounger and guaranteed crits. Ranger Bardin with ammo packs, Kerrilian with her Trueflight talents, and Sienna with already infinite ammo, along with the Ironbreaker’s Drakefire weapons.

I would suggesting reintroducing the ability for the bash on Shotguns to trigger weapon effects, as a start.

But, I’ve also found that playing on Legend, even with a great deal of Power vs Race/Infantry, I cannot ‘clean up’ even a funneled portion of a horde wave with certainty. Not to mention the absolutely neutered damage vs Armor, or Monsters.

In short, Shotguns are fun, but I consider them underpowered, and under-used. Shotguns are IMO not good choices vs the other weapons, with the Huntsman’s access to the Empire Longbow, the Handgun and the Repeating Rifle. Excepting the handgun, all of those can do very good horde damage, while also special-killing, and Monster-DPS.

While Ranger Bardin’s other choices, namely the Crossbow, Handgun, and the Throwing Axes, all lack the horde-killing potential of the Grudgeraker, they are each in their own way lacking. The Handgun is single-shot and a slow reload, primarily useful for Premades, where other people have assigned roles. The Crossbow can give a good accounting of itself in nearly any role, and is one of Bard’s better weapons, even if its Monster DPS is lacking. The Throwing Axes, of course, excel in single target damage, and are very poor against Hordes.

To sum up my opinions on Shotguns, my suggestion would be an all-around buff to its damage/cleave, and reintegrate the ability for weapon-bashes to trigger effects such as Scrounger.

Please, feel free to share you own ideas for how underperforming weapons may be improved!

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I disagree about shotguns.
The main point of ranged classes is that they have a way to get ammo back and make the most use out of their ranged weapons. With blunderbuss, it didn’t matter if you we’re s&s FK or Mercenary, you flat out had infinite ammo with the blunderbuss. It allowed you to casually shoot at every horde and mauler you saw and decimate them in seconds.
Secondly, shotguns are great at killing certain specials. It can instantly kill assassins, globadiers, leeches, nearby blightstormers. With some power it could also one-shot gunners and warpfire throwers too. Only special it really struggles against is the packmaster, but you should be capable to dodge it and melee it anyways. What is also fantastic, is that it doesn’t really get blocked by enemies. In the case of the handgun or repeater, if there was an enemy in your way, the shot would get stopped, but with the blunderbuss you would cleave right through a number of enemies and still be able to kill whatever you we’re aiming at. And I do really want to highlight how easy it is to kill assassins with it, at least for me, it’s really hard to kill assassins with the repeater or handgun.
I really don’t think it’s a good idea to buff the shotguns, they’re fine as they are now. Grudge RV is one of his most meta builds, as is Bluntsman. They can clear hordes and specials and have the ability to get ammo back nicely. Mercenary and FK aren’t ranged careers due to their melee power or crowd control/utility, and yet they still make decent use from the blunderbuss (repeater still more versatile and probably better, but blunderbuss can compete, unlike handgun)

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I like to think of things in terms of principle functions and work down from there. What basic functions do weapons need to work well?

-Damage or Damage Application
-Stagger/Control
-Defense

Sienna’s Mace fails at 2 out of 3, having only Stagger at an acceptable level. It’s a good candidate for a thorough rework.

Elven Greatsword fails only at damage, since it’s dodge and stamina are quite good, stagger is reasonable, and usability is one of the simplest to use in the game. It’s base damage is poor and this can’t be compensated for with skillful play because the light attacks can’t be aimed at the head. This is a simple fix, just buff the damage to the point where it does it job even with the attack pattern. The heavy attack also needs a large buff, it doesn’t cleave so it should hurt a lot and currently it can’t even headshot SV on Legend anymore.

Falchion fails at all 3, defense and control are laughable (although dodge isn’t bad, 2 stamina is terrible), and damage is theoretically good but it’s designed as a headshot weapon and completely outclassed by the Rapier in this role. It needs a different role to compete.

Shotguns died to me when they lost their power vs armored. Being able to blast SV out from a horde was always their greatest advantage, and when Grudge lost that it kind of lost it’s niche. They don’t have enough ammo to be viable anti-horde weapons and every other weapon is better at anti-special, so what’s left?

Honorable Mentions:

Kruber’s mace fails only in the damage department, and only on it’s light attacks. It’s otherwise excellent. A simple fix. Ditto Bardin’s 1h Hammer, since they are identical.

Greataxe fails (only slightly!) in damage, due to having the same move set as Greathammer but less stagger. With stagger boosting DPS now, Greataxe needs a DPS boost to compete again. It’s still usable, just outclassed because of how stagger works now.

Kruber/Salz Greatsword fails in the control category. It’s damage is actually quite good and generally underestimated, especially since it can cleave armor, it just can’t take advantage of the stagger system because it’s stagger is too weak for it’s slow speed. The push attack needs a buff to compensate for the enemy HP boost as well.

Sienna’s Dagger is almost perfect with the recent buff to the heavy combo, and with good aim and use of stagger it works really well on single targets now. This is a great and fun high-skill weapon. It’s underperfoming just a hair in the damage category vs infantry, and should IMO get a slight buff to it’s light attacks, otherwise it’s not competitive with Flame Sword. The push attack also needs a buff to compensate for bleeds being only 2 ticks now, I know they stack now but the damage per hit was cut in half, which is bad for a move that is stamina limited.

Falchiaxe still needs a nerf for anything else to compete, and all it needs IMO is to respect the two weapons it comes from. It’s problem is it has the advantages of two weapons at once on every hit - the high damage and armor piercing of the single target axe, and the cleave and headshot bonus from the falchion. Make the axe hits behave like an axe and the falchion hits behave like a falch, instead of both at once, and it’ll be fixed.

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Problem with shotguns is they got nerfed hard to ensure they are an anti-infantry weapon only, but not given the ammo capacity appropriate for that role compared to repeater handgun or swift bow.

If shotguns are only going to be allowed to have 12 shots then it needs the power to make each shot worth using. As they are now, taking a shotgun over any other ranged choice, particularly on IB who has drake guns, is only good for making the game harder.

Repeater Pistol is also in a perpetually ridiculous state.

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does anyone else know of any other weapon that has a alt attack besides the rapier+gun
I think the spear for either kruber or saltz has an alt attack swing I think it is the bill hook that grabs and stuns the enemy.

literally only 2 weapons that have alt attacks.

1h sword, alt attack busts out a dagger slices the throat or something in a small sweep maybe getting two enemies (cleave bonus)

shields - alt attack should automatically do a shield bash (stagger bonus)

1h hammer/1h axe - alt attack does a arm swing across cutting off limbs (cleave bonus)

sieanna’s dagger - alt attack should be claw swip to ignite foe

kerillian backstab should be an alt attack

what you think about those ideas?

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Rapier shoots the pistol, Billhook hooks an enemy. The only other uses for Weapon Special are on Waystalker and during Huntsman’s Prowl, where they zoom closer (and back) on ranged weapons.

And yeah, I’ve said it before, but I’d love to see more use for Weapon Special. Not every weapon need to use it, and not every weapon would have something that’d be suitable, but even with the addition of Billhook it’s still underused.

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Putting the shield bash onto the alt fire has been suggested before and it would be a truly wonderful thing, help clear up their attack patterns by a lot and make them a lot smoother to use.

Dunno what other weapons should get one, I can think of a bunch of ideas but they are all basically just gimmick attacks for the sake of having one. Which might be cool, but I’m not sure it’s the best use of dev time.

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There a lot of weapons useless or simply outdated. We could write a book… and honestly I don’t even know if it’s possible make every weapon useful (or at least give it a niche).

Anyway there are cases more important than other ones. For example Elf Greatsword: Handmaiden is a crowd control career, but she hasn’t weapons for her role… both Greatsword and Glaive need a buff.

Shotguns. Only Huntsman and Ranger Veteran can use them. Other careers will finish the ammo. But if I fill a role with a squishy ranged career, I demand that it deletes every special. With shotguns you are useless vs most specials in most cases. At this point, it’s better Zealot: he can melt hordes, he’s tough and he can kill specials too! But also WHC or Merc. Moreover shotguns are useful only against a corridor horde. Moreover (once again) many weapons, perfect against specials, are good vs hordes too (an example: bows).
Shotguns would need a better damage vs armors and vs bosses. In this way, playing as a specials killer career, I could choose: better to be strong vs every specials or better to be strong vs close-medium range specials and vs hordes too?

P.S: anyway Grudgeraker is simply better than Blunderbuss.

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if you add shield bash, that would technically be a buff to any shield user and would make shields a bit more viable too

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Shields are already good. At least sword and axe&shield.

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I’ve been mulling over how you’d make Saltz’s Volley crossbow more viable for ages now and I still don’t have many strong ideas. It’s niche has traditionally been monster killing, but BH doesn’t really need help with this, and even if its monster damage was high enough to be effective with WHC or Zealot would it be worth bringing over brace or crossbow just for monsters? Probably not.

IMO its general usability has to be buffed or nobody will ever pick it except for lols. Firstly reduce the reload time a bit, doesn’t have to be huge but should be noticeable. Secondly buff its cleave so it can at least double as an anti horde weapon. Probably also buff its monster damage a little. Testing with BH and monster spawner I could kill a legend rat ogre about as fast with crossbow as I could with volley crossbow… That’s silly.

If anybody else has any ideas about this poor unloved child of a weapon I’d love to hear them!

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This would be great! As long as SnS could still combo it into heavy 2. I love that combo for sniping elites out of a horde

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They’re definetely viable, but not really “good” as in “meta weapon” like Falchiaxe or Spear or something. They perform pretty amazingly when you have some good teamplay though, so they have that niche covered. If you are alone though, their killing potential is very low and you’re often hosed on Cata and up, where some other weapons’s sheer killing potential and mobility can still pull through.

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Rapier:
Make alt-fire crits pierce properly pierce armor like other weapons, and increase it’s crit modifier by a metric ton in comparison to how it is now.

It’s silly how it consumes BH’s passive, when it really doesn’t do all that much.

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The main thing with the rapier gun is that it lets you easily aggro enemies from afar into melee range, it´s quite nice when playing WHC.

It also helps that it benefits from the WHC passive to oneshot anything smaller than a CW on a headshot crit.

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The pistol is great at stunning elites, and BH can use his guaranteed ranged crit to proc SS or RC. Rapier strikes me as Saltz’s version of a shield

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The best way to buff Saltz’s volley xbow is to remove it, lol.

That’s a weapon that was made for a different game where arrows can cleave through 15 ratmen on a roided out ranged character.

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The main thing with the rapier gun is that it lets you easily aggro enemies from afar into melee range, it´s quite nice when playing WHC.

This is clearly not the alt fire’s intended “main thing”, and certainly isn’t it’s main thing as of now either.

It also helps that it benefits from the WHC passive to oneshot anything smaller than a CW on a headshot crit.

Spamming it from range in hopes of a random crit to one shot, ONLY on WHC isn’t exactly good. It’s just a very unreliable way of killing ambients, which are already trivial. Pointless to use in short ranges, apart from berserkers when blocking, because the rapier’s headshot pokes are so strong it makes the alt-fire negligible.

The pistol is great at stunning elites, and BH can use his guaranteed ranged crit to proc SS or RC. Rapier strikes me as Saltz’s version of a shield

Just because it stuns elites, does not mean it’s great at it.
It’s an incredibly slow attack, which deals almost no damage to armored units, with no cleave/AoE. That’s not great by any stretch of the imagination.

Spending BH’s passive to get SS is very, very rarely even worth it, because it’s always preferable to use it with your ranged, unless you are using Inpsired shot. Even then, it’s barely even worth it, because of it’s slow attack speed not making up for the loss of regular attacks.

I stand by what I said. It should properly pierce armor when critting and get a better crit modifier.

Edit: The reason for it’s current state it obvious though. Since fatshark nerfed it’s dropoff damage to solve the rapier having an unlimited ammo ranged weapon, they naturally forgot to address that it’s now just an inferior short range weapon. Classic Fatshark.

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At least for FK, sword&shield is like his only meta melee choice, and it really is pretty good. Staggering Force talent + some power vs Skaven let’s you push stagger every single enemy in the game, apart from CW overheads (and monsters of course), not to mention you can just spam shield bashes to crowd control everything in front of you and get THP.
If that sounds boring to you (I don’t blame you), you can take more offensive talents like the 15% power from staggering elites and kill elites like Stormvermin very effectively. I can kill Stormvermin in like 3 hits on Cataclysm with my current setup. This will still also let you push stagger most enemies in the game and you’ll still have great crowd control and BCR.
A lot of people seem to regard sword&shield as a useless weapon for killing when that really isn’t the case. It has low dmg and below average cleave, but mixing in pushes and shield bashes against hordes to get that stagger dmg bonus let’s you kill hordes just fine, you don’t need much for that. Charging CW’s let’s you knock them down, stagger and push-stab->heavy-stab them to death pretty effectively. Really, s&s is perfectly viable C3O.

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I really don’t see why the alt-fire on the rapier should be buffed.
It uses no ammo, does great dmg up close, stuns elites, good for aggroing ambients and it doesn’t break block when using it. You can literally hold block, use the alt-fire and you won’t be vulnerable.
It’s not an independent weapon, it’s an add-on to the rapier.

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