Yeah being able to fire it completely safe from behind block is incredible for berserkers, which it already does respectable damage to up close, where you’re gonna be engaging them anyway.
Agreed it probably doesn’t need to be any better than it is. Rapier in general is in a great place, so can we focus on stuff that you never see people use? That still leaves plenty of scope.
Fair enough, that’s all true. However, all that stuff is mostly because of the class-weapon interaction with Footknight’s talents, rather than because of the weapon itself. If you take Sword&Shield on Merc or Huntsman, my point still stands.
Don’t get me wrong: I like shields now, actually. I play them often. I have fun with them. They have their uses. They are viable and depending on context sometimes even good. But they need the synergy with the class setup to be good, while some other weapons are really good regardless of context. (Such as falchiaxe and spear.)
Shields are finally good, but totally nope meta.
2.0.15 indirectly nerfed them. Scattered hordes mean less controll with bash;
you totally depend on mates: shield damage is simply not-enough. I love tanks and I love shields, but for this reason I don’t play as tank without some friends;
there are weapons with a similar staggering power, but with much more damage;
paradoxically you can take some “unfair damage”: you know that shields can stagger CW > you see a CW that aren’t doing an overhead attack > you use shield’s bash > one instant later CW starts his overhead and hit you.
I would suggest making ammo on headshot actually work so one can get some ammo back and then unnerfing the shotguns, since now those are complete garbage and it’s meme to play them, can’t even one shot flamer on pretty close range with max dmg on footknight, with plus power from talents. It’s such a trash.
Yes, exactly. All they need is their hitting power back, really. They were only as overpowered because of the free ammo on bash.
I feel like you’re underselling rapier’s pea shooter… but at the same time I won’t complain if it got tweaked.
Its steep damage falloff and accuracy are fine, to me. It wouldn’t feel right for it to have actual killing power at range without an ammo counter.
Right now it’s better off as an elite stunning gimmick that can sometimes kill as a hilarious side-effect. A high crit modifier would be cool, but I’d be worried about it making it too good to the point players stop using the charged attack in favor of fishing for crits with the pistol which is reasonably quick and can be done while blocking. If anything, I would want to see the pea shooter deal even more stagger, enough for crits to stagger berserkers out of attack combos and crit-headshots to interrupt CW overheads.
I really don’t see why the alt-fire on the rapier should be buffed.
It uses no ammo, does great dmg up close, stuns elites, good for aggroing ambients and it doesn’t break block when using it. You can literally hold block, use the alt-fire and you won’t be vulnerable.
It’s not an independent weapon, it’s an add-on to the rapier.
I hate to repeat myself, but “good for aggroing ambients” is not a selling point. Every class which utilizes ammo on headshot(which is almost everyone that doesn’t have some form of ammo regain) can one hit kill any elite from across the map for eternity. This is neither good, nor a selling point.
It doesn’t use ammo, because it is essentially comparable to a melee weapon, because it’s effective range is so short. I don’t mind this at all, if it didn’t also have very lackluster damage up close, even with a crit.
Define great damage. It deals less single target dps than the rapier non headshot charged attacks. How is that great? It’s arguably one of the lowest (if not the lowest) single target dps in the game, while incapable of dealing with armor and no cleave or penetration. Don’t throw around statements like that, when they are so easily tested.
I already mentioned the shoot while blocking, being it’s only decent feature. Because that’s all it is, decent, if that.
I feel like you’re underselling rapier’s pea shooter… but at the same time I won’t complain if it got tweaked…
See reply above, I am not underselling it at all. It is downright worse to use than the rapier in literally every situation in the game, apart from shooting the odd berserker when blocking.
Lastly, have you seen rapier crits? There’s no way people would fish for crits with the alt-fire, even if it did as much damage as the rapier crits, because of the rapiers vastly better attack speed.
Edit:
Point being is that the entire damage profile of the alt-fire, was designed around it having no damage falloff in the beginning, which was obviously broken because of the unlimited ammo nature. They just failed to grasp that when you then essentially make the gun a melee weapon, without rebalancing the weapon, it no longer serves a purpose, because it is outclassed in that range.
A quick dummy test shows that it does like double the dmg of a rapier body thrust, and a bit more dmg than a fully charged rapier body thrust.
What I don’t quite understand though, is what exactly do you want the pistol to do? What role should it fill according to you? What should it be able to accomplish? To me, it’s just a neat little add-on to the rapier that you can use from time to time. It’s not a full-blown independent weapon. The pistol is a part of the rapier itself.
And I said dps, which is an abbreviation for “damage per second”, but you conveniently stepped around that of course.
I want the pistol to have a purpose, apart from being a “neat little addition” (see above, useless). It could for example serve as a short range burst damage tool with it’s current design. Hence, why increasing it’s crit modifier and armor penetration with crits could do just that.
You could apply your logic to Siennas staff. Imagine if charged fireballs were useless. I could say like you: “well, charged fireballs isn’t the entire weapon, it’s just part of it, so that means it’s fine. I don’t understand why you want it changed”.
Edit: The problem is that the damage as you said, is barely above a charged non headshot rapier poke, with of course having no cleave, or armor pen.
You’re talking as if I’m arguing in bad faith, I didn’t see that you were talking about DPS, but how is DPS relevant here at all? You’re not going to use the pistol fighting hordes when you’re in melee range anyways, so DPS is a pointless thing to talk about.
The pistol isn’t useless, you can use it in various scenarios. Is it game-changing? No, but it doesn’t need to be. I wouldn’t mind it getting changed, but rapier is strong enough, and there are many other weapons that need to get looked at.
And your scenario there is not the same. The pistol is a completely different attack from the rapier itself, it’s an alt-fire ranged attack meant to supplement your melee. Meanwhile the charged fireball is the same attack as the non-charged fireball, but stronger. Funnily enough, from my experience, fireballs don’t really get fully charged that often, they rather just get spammed by Pyromancers, so your made up scenario is actually kind of the reality.
There you go. You are not going to use the melee alt-fire pistol, in melee because it’s pointless., you are saying it yourself now. There aren’t really other “various scenarios” where it’s arguably good, apart from it’s one very niche use against berserkers when blocking. We’ve been over this many times now.
Other weapons ‘needing it more’ is completely irrelevant for the thread and is not an argument.
No, my scenario is not literally the same, comparisons in fact rarely are. They only have to be reasonably similar, which this clearly is.
Yes, exactly, the pistol is meant to supplement the rapier, when in reality it actually doesn’t, because it’s awful.
Are you actually making the argument that the charged fireball attack is not meant to supplement a different function to the overall weapon itself…? Because it’s “the same but stronger”. I guess the bolt staff’s charged attack also really is the same thing as it’s regular attack. After all, it’s the same, but stronger. Laughable dude.
Tbh the fact that you can use it while blocking makes it an invaluable tool as-is, dealing some very powerful, completely safe damage to things like berserkers, plague monks, stormvermin, etc.
You’re not going to use the melee alt-fire pistol against hordes because it has low cleave and it’s the rapiers job to clear hordes. Against maulers, berserkers and against various infantry it works fine or even good.
Anyways, I don’t think I’ll be able to convince you of anything, this discussion is pointless. It’s fine to have desires, but you shouldn’t start acting passive aggressive over it.
It’s also useful to shoot the pistol right after a power attack stab as a follow up, or shoot it as you dodge backwards from something. If you use it on moments where rapier attacks can’t be done anyways it’s a great way to dish out just a little more damage.
Rapier pistol has great uses as is. What I said above, as a safe way to attack while blocking, etc… And its damage is not shabby at all. Rapier pistol is fine as is.
Only alternative I can think of: Make it 100% similar to a n9rmal pistol shot, but make it use ammo instead. Didn’t it work like that in V1 as well?
Here we have some completely safe heavy damage on a storm vermin. Terrific.
Thanks Community Hero, for enlightening me.
Here’s another example of some uber heavy single target burst damage from the alt-fire. (which locks you into a long animation, sick…!)
Now here’s an example of some lousy damage from the rapier on the other hand, totally not worth using over the magnificent alt-fire, considering it also cleaves, attacks twice as fast, doesn’t lock you into a long animation, procs SS more often, crits 3x as hard. ;(
Well, at least I am utterly convinced my time is much better spent trolling this forum instead. Thanks.
Okay well then let’s buff the alt-fire so that you don’t have to use the rapier.
Yup, that’s exactly what I said.
Pathetic as hell, lmao.
You really should relax.
We all know the pistol’s damage is inferior to the rapier’s. I mean, duh? The point, however, is that the pistol shot should not need to outdo or ever match the rapier’s damage to be useful. Consider it simply as a supplemental attack, that adds some utility. If you think of it as that, you’ll find it serves that purpose brilliantly and does plenty of damage in its own right.
Clearly, since that seems to be all you are doing.