Huntsman has poor options for generating temporary health

Warhammer: Vermintide 2 Feedback
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I hold the opinion that Huntsman has comparatively poor ways to generate temporaty hit points (THP) when put next to other ranged-focused careers. In order to make my point, let’s first look at what methods he has.

  1. On melee stagger, based on the strength of the stagger and the number of enemies hit
  2. On kill, based on the health of the enemy killed
  3. Generate 4 THP per second (24 in total) when Hunter’s Prowl is used

#1 and #2 are mutually exclusive (level 20 talents) while #3 can be used independently (level 25 talent).
Let’s talk about the level 20 talents first.

THP on stagger:
Likely the least suitable option for Huntsman, but it can situationally yield generous amounts of white HP. If you use a weapon with high stagger on push (shields) and push into high density you can generate a fair bit of health. One downside is that a situation in which you can make use of this fully is not all that common: mostly at the beginning of hordes in narrow quarters.

Another downside is that low-mobility weapons generally don’t suit Huntsman very well: most of his power is in his ranged weapon, so having the mobility to disengage and get into a favorable shooting position faster is generally the preferred option.
As for the higher mobility weapons, the one-handed mace is likely the best option with this trait, as it has good cleave and decent stagger. However, if it’s just used normally by swinging into the horde, it will still generally yield more white HP with THP on kill.

This ties into another downside: most weapons will simply kill the enemy, robbing you of most of the THP they might have given you. Unless you very deliberately herd enemies to create high density so you can generate health by pushing them. This is the main way to make use of this talent effectively, which runs a bit contrary to the idea that you’re supposed to kill the enemy. It requires both you and your team to slow down.

THP on kill:
My preferred option at level 20, but still hardly a good one. With most weapons it will outperform THP on stagger, but it has a downfall.

Now, THP on kill is a good talent for generating health. If you are good at killing elites in melee, seeing as it scales with the health of the enemy. Huntsman’s primary strength is his ability to eliminate elites at range. As such his preferred method of engaging them is to shoot, which won’t yield white HP. Even if he does engage elites in melee, he is far less likely to score the final blow than a class better geared for melee combat.

Against most small enemies, he will generate small amounts of health. Slave rats, for example, require you to kill something like four of them just to gain 2 hp.

Breakdown:
Looking at the two options above, on-kill in my experience is the option that yields the most extra health, unless you very deliberately change your way of fighting hordes so as to not kill them. Even then you rely on your team not killing your herds before you’ve milked them.
However, even if normally THP on kill yields more, the amount is still not impressive as it relies on melee elite kills to be comparable to better health traits not available to huntsman.

Now that we’ve looked at the level 20 talents (and seen that they are bad), let’s have a look at his third option for generating health.

THP on Hunter’s Prowl:
This generates 4 THP per second over the duration of the ability, giving you 24 THP in total. Unlike the others, we have hard numbers for this one, which makes it much easier to compare to other things.

There are three other careers with a similar talent option: Waystalker, Ranger Veteran, and Pyromancer all have the option to choose a talent that grants them 50 THP when they use their special abilities.

There are two main differences:

  1. Their abilities generate all the THP instantly, whereas Huntsman generates his over time.
  2. Their abilities generate about twice the amount of THP.

It’s pretty clear that Huntsman’s version is not up to snuff. Not only in comparison to these other careers, but it’s hard to give up the reduced cooldown or some potentially juicy breakpoints from the 20% power talent for a mere 24 temporary hit points.

Suggestions:
As for level 20 talents (in general, not just for Huntsman), my opinion is that the king is THP on headshot/crit, while THP on cleave is the prince. THP on kill comes in third (the knight?), but relies on the character being good at killing elites in melee to keep up. Huntsman generally doesn’t succeed on that front, and as such it’s not a great option for him.

Having either of the other two options would make his THP generation much more consistent and reliable. THP on headshot/crit suits Huntsman very well thematically in my opinion, and would be an obvious candidate to replace THP on stagger with. (I do think that THP on crit/headshot is slightly overtuned in general, but that’s beyond the scope of this discussion.)

Regarding his level 25 talent, making it closer to the other special ability THP talents would make it much more desirable.

That is all. Any thoughts?

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All ranged Careers suffer from the lv20 Talents being melee only, and while HS has access to weapons that can use Stagger effectively, on Kill is generally only useful on few specific setups (specifically, ones that allow you to consistently kill priority targets in melee; while HS is indeed effective against Elites and Specials, he does it at range).

On the THP at Career Skill use, there’s an additional problem (that actually touches upon Ranger too): The cooldowns on Career Skill are vastly different, bringing in even more inequality between them. While Pyro and Waystalker have low enough cooldowns to use their Skill as the primary source of THP (1:00 and 1:10 according to the Wiki), RV has a two-minute cooldown, giving twice the chances to lose that THP without a reliable method of replenishment, and HS has 1:30, while still returning only half of the others (as you noted). Personally, I don’t necessarily count the gradual regen as a clear disadvantage, especially as it happens at least partially during stealth.

This has lead me to play Huntsman with heal-share, relying on ranged weaponry and healing items to stay alive. It’s risky, but usually works.

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Thing is, all the other ranged careers have much better melee THP options; if they do go into melee they can generate a decent amount.

Ranger and Pyromancer have THP on cleave. Bounty Hunter has THP on crit/headshot. Waystalker has both. Their options are consistent and reliable, unlike Huntsman’s. If they want temp health, they can usually have it, even without their level 25 talents.

Ranged-focused careers not generating THP at range I am fine with; the incredible power of some of this game’s ranged weapons ought to come with increased risk, I think. Having less effective THP than bulky melee-focused ones is perfectly fine, and is the case anyway since any form of damage reduction makes each point of THP worth more.

I do think that ranged-focused careers ought to be able to generate decent THP if they do decide to fight in melee, though. Huntsman currently falls short in that respect.

It’s probably a smaller disadvantage than the cooldown disparity, true, though Huntsman’s cooldown is still fairly short. It’s Ranger who gets the short end of that stick.

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From the weapon reworks and the talent reworks the ranged based classes have been transformed from the kill everything and win the game to a support role, providing ranged dps and other team benefits. With that in mind, they are generally safer classes, taking less damage overall due to positioning and not being on the front lines. So the temp health is there to reward the risk of combat and while still fulfilling that role.

My personal experience is that I hardly need the temp health, or healing for that matter, on legend runs simply because I’m in the back line performing my job as horde clearer and special killer. So, temp health ultimately isn’t a deciding factor in any of my builds or in-game decisions. If I’m in a situation where I really need to maintain the front line with vast amounts of temp health, we’re already in a bad position and team comp which makes the run even more difficult to complete.

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There should be a THP on ranged headshot or something for ranged careers.

Make it like the WHC one where it gives you more for crit headshots or something, it’s perfectly ok for ranged careers to use ranged abilities. :confused:

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I disagree. Huntsman’s ranged options are very powerful as is, and I think making use of them should carry more inherent risk (i.e. by not generating THP.)

What I’d like to see is his melee THP generation be brought a little closer to that of the other ranged careers.

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100% Agree.

I mean I’m a bit surprised that you consider headshot/crit the best, can you consistantly get melee headshots?
I’ve never found it expecially good, maybe I should give it an other try.
I generally dislike the new talents, because they are very weapon dependents, and sometimes (health on kills expecially) can lead to unhealthy competition.

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I like to think I headshot pretty consistently, so maybe it’s that. I just feel like I can easily get THP playing any of the careers who have the talent.

It probably is a little weapon dependent, though. Many of the elf weapons have increased crit chance, making it better on her. Witch Hunter Captain also has tons of extra crit, and most of his weapons are very easy to headshot with I think. But even on Bounty Hunter who has no extra crit I find it easy to generate temp health.

Agreed on THP on kill. I tend to avoid picking the talent if I can, even on careers who can make decent use of it. On cleave is very reliable I find, and most careers have access to it.

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I think huntsman needs temp health on cleave because the only time he needs to melee is during a horde. Temp health on crit/headshot I think is great on dual swords and sword and dagger but haven’t really used it elsewhere.

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Just registered to write a topic about this, but I guess you beat me to it :smiley: . I am very confused as to why Huntsman does not have access to the critical and headshot talent, since his whole shtick is kinda about headshots and criticals.

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ya the stagger option is weird, i mean (sry for all the shieldfans out there ) but running around with a shield is not my thing

giving him an option to gain THP on multihit or on HS would help huntsman alot

(ofc one might say, why get hit with huntsman in the first place :wink: but well bad things happen and then you might wanna gain some THP back without staggering things ore trying to gain THP on kill with chars like slayer, zealot, elf running around slaughtering everything thats even gaining any decent amount of THP on kill in a matter or seconds)

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I agree. Same with WHC to be honest. Like, how on earth does he not have the headshot/crits/crit headshot thing when he literally has a passive ability that is about crit headshots.
I honestly think FS kinda feared that headshot and crit healing would perform too well on these carreers, but considering it was all about the “core identities” of carreers, giving HS the stagger talent (which seems random at best) and on kill (which atm only truly shines when you are good at melee elite killing. HS is definitely one of the best elite hunters out there, but not in melee) is not gonna go with the whole “buff melee, nerf ranged” thing that the BBB was ought to do (and overall did a good job at).
HS (and WHC) not having the headshot option just feels… wrong.
And while we’re at it: BW also needs to get rid of the stagger option in favour of cleave :slight_smile:

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Erm… I don’t know where you’re looking, because WHC most certainly does have THP on crit/headshot. And it’s very good on him. I actually had to just check what his other option was… (it seems to be cleave, another very good one)

Pyromancer actually is a Career that could use crit/headshot quite well, but doesn’t have it. While she also is a ranged Career, her crit bonus from high heat do apply to melee too, allowing her to use it well… Or would, if she had the Talent option.

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Melee HS/crit is quite good for Saltz and some elf weapons/careers. For everyone else HP on cleave is superior. HP on stagger is most of the time quite unreliable and works only with some weapons but it’s better than HP on kill because at least it doesn’t matter who lands the final blow.

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You’re right, I kinda got stuff mixed up in my head. It was late at night :slight_smile:

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Generally stagger and kill are totally worse than cleave and crit/head
I think temp heal talent needs rewok again…

For buffing former or nerfing latter

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I’ve made a suggestion that kill should work like ghis: you get HP from dmg (part of it) and some for kill, with amounts depending on enemy type/armor class. So it would be a lot more reliable and final strike hunting would no longer be a viable tactic - currently I often see shades wasting their ult on CW that is clearly about to go down and when a few seconds later a real problem shows up, they have no answer to it and just die.

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