How spam and spawn hurts strategy. Feedback from a vet main after 1.1k hours 500+ lvl

Hi everyone, I think it’s time for me to write some feedback than just mumbling curses into my beard. So here we go.

What I enjoy most is the strategic coop aspect in the Fatshark games since Vermintide 1. I love how you kinda develop an overlapping safety system with your coop crew, to protect everyone, very much like a phalanx. Of course, you can let go of all strategy for a short time when you play an aggressive melee classes. You go in and trust your reflexes, enjoy the chaos and carnage, but still need one eye on your team.

This feedback reflects the perspective of a veteran player on damnation high shock or maelstrom. With the last few patches, I’m still capable to win most games, but don’t enjoy the hardest difficulty as much as before. Here is why:

With patch #14 Darktide reaches a point where it’s still fun, but the strategic aspects suffers a lot from the recent enemy spam. They feel more like a wall of mindless flesh I have to cut or shoot my way through with brute force or superfast aiming, then outsmarting a serious enemy that tries to win and survive. You have to outrun and wear them down or just out damage the enemy. A repeating example of, what feels bad with this enemy spam is, that the melee mates are forced to push the never ending enemy hordes back. They need to stay in melee, fill up their toughness and proceed forward. While your range classes gets attacked in the back, forced into melee, so you can’t focus on the specialist next to your melee mates anymore. In this situation, either your team are good single fighters or you are all dead. There is no more cooperation in such situations until someone gets downed. But even then, when you are that far away from each other, it’s often better to let him die than to sacrifice the seconds you can’t do damage to the enemy and risk a whole team wipe. My mates and I can win most times, but we are driven away from each other by the game, in a coop game. I think that is a major design flaw that was introduced with the recent patches.

Another aspect then the enemy spam hurting the strategy is how they spawn into the map.
One recent example: two ragers came out of a door next to me and downed me with full toughness and health in one second. So if I don’t have my melee out and look towards this doors direction by accident, I’m just dead with no chance to react. Same with the bursters just explodes next to the door in 0.5 sec, no joke. The whole system with doors is flawed. Next to the unfair disadvantages are the dumb advantages you get from door spawn. I saw so many dump melee door basing, out killing the enemy in them most stupid way possible: by hitting them though a closed door. Hodor would be proud! (GoT ref)
My advice: Remove all doors and trapdoors. Let the enemy spawn outside the players view and advance. Let them jump down or climb up ledges where the player have time to react. But if the player is close to that ledge, let the enemy search for another, safer way to engage the players, so there so second dumb kill grind ends: waterfall or climb bashing.

Just try out a vet sniper build in the highest difficulty and you see what I mean when I say: you don’t have time for strategy. You have to dodge like ninja without seeing the enemy that tries to hit you from behind, just relining on the swoosh sound, because you have to hold your focus fire on the priority targets that tries to disable your teammates in front. I regularly have the situation where one pox walker tires to hit me for almost a minute and I can’t sacrifice the time to turn around and kill him. Why even should I try to kill him, when there could be just another pox walker crawling out of a trapdoor the second I kill that one? They are just everywhere, and a mere pox walker can kill you. The roaming small ones are the vets worst nightmare. Maybe that’s intended, but for me, it ends up in been more stress than fun.

Again: This is out of a perspective of a vet main that plays the highest difficulty. You don’t suffer from that problem that much when you play on lower difficulty or you are playing zelot or ogryn.

Thank you for your attention and for making such a great game. Keep improving it and it will become a masterpiece like Vermintide 2.

EDIT: I forget to mention my vague idea for the enemy spam problem: Half their numbers, but double their HP and the dmg on their weak points. Or work something out with armor in that direction. This is of course just a vague idea, balancing is a math nightmare, I can imagine.
You could still keep the actual enemy spam in a mutator, for those players who enjoy being in the middle of chaos.

5 Likes

that is a serious statement, this is how a 800+ veteran gameboard looks

every vet should download this mod yesterday

you would be surprised how many nonsense conversational or tag sounds distract you in the field, its making me play 100% better, this is the best mod to face patch 15

man, Darktide AI has 100% better tactics than vermintide 2 AI, i’m always surprised about the combos they manage to pull on you, their objective is to kill you, and if an amount of force is not enough they send more, of course the ogryn spam is nonsense lore wise but you get what i’m saying

i’ll leave you a like just because you main vet

2 Likes

I like the spawns. I hope they start sending even more enemies. The more the better. Love it

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I was saying that we need Difficult 6 even before patch 13. The “flood the players in enemies” isn’t really cutting it for me. Shame that below Auric STG I can’t find any challenge anymore.

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The ogryn spam is a bit BS mechanically too because of both the quietness of crushers and how enemies can stand in and attack out of ogryn hitboxes (not to mention 5 crushers stacking in the space of one).

Even with a lot of the extraneous sounds turned off, most elites are still too quiet, especially crushers and ragers. The sound mixing and reliability of sound cues should not depend on mods turning everything else off.

5 Likes
  • “serious statement”
    Finding a good team was the trick for me :slight_smile:
    I still have one extra wound because i like to play a glasscannon. My teammates are used to that and help me out when I get surprised.

  • “No ChitChat”
    Thx for the recommendation, I will check it out.

  • “Darktide vs Vermintide AI”
    I think that is a little different in Vermintide, you are fighting insane rats and it’s mainly close combat, but that would be a whole new discussion. In my opinion V2 is a masterpiece of a game.

  • “like”
    pls just like my post when you like what you read, thx

1 Like

The number of spawns does not matter, it’s the absurdity of the spawns the problem.

Numerous times I have cleared a room just to turn around and find it filled with ragers, the smaller the room the more lovingly close to each other we are.

Last night I entered an empty room, picked out of it to see if there were enemies, turned around to go back to my teammates and instead found 3 Crusher friends decided to spawn in the room behind me. It was a lovely time…

ATM Auric is easier than normal, the director completely ignores modifiers and spams anything and everything at any difficulty.
Going under Auric you’ll get less prepared teammates that will really give you a challenge.

the way you phrased it means you are on the path of redemption i’ll give you that

Oh thank you great master of all things to give me my redemption. *sarcasm
Sry, but maybe tune down your ego a little bit.

2 Likes

Spare me the sass, HP is the most important stat since vermintide 1, hell, since left 4 dead

the player that realize it instantly becomes better than 80% of the playerbase just with that notion

I suspect that the spawns will probably be toned down a bit in a future patch. And I say this as someone who is enjoying the current difficulty. I’m also a vet main and I used to just go to auric and quickplay now I’m hesitant to leave standard damnation with my new builds. It’s definitely exposing my weaknesses as a player which I appreciate. That said there are a few… hiccups with the spawns sometimes that don’t seem right to me. Like so many trappers spawning simultaneously that their combined “gonna getcha” is the loudest thing I’ve ever heard in this game. They also seem to spawn on top of/in each other a lot which means they were never a threat for anyone with decent AOE or cleave. I’ve also heard character banter get cut off by hordes/spawns popping up, surely that isn’t intended. So I have a suspicion that there may be a bug or oversight in the design at the moment.

Am I the only one that enjoy the insane spawns on auric mael and histg?

My winrate looks about the same with pubs, closer to 70% if I can get my usual full stack going. And I honestly enjoy it heaps. The sense of accomplishment of surviving some of the more intense clusterfck moments is much greater compared to knocking fewer spawns with more hp. At the end of the day the series isn’t named ‘tide’ for nothing. I actually want tides of enemies to bash into a pulp.

As some people put it: Why not play a lower difficulty if it’s too much for you? I honestly don’t get the need for spawn nerfs on the highest difficulty. I couldn’t give 2 fs about the hours you’ve played.

The most recent patches with the class overhaul braught a massive powercreep into the game, allowing more people to clear the highest difficulty. That powercreep has been reigned in now through spawns. I don’t see a problem here.

Now if you ask me whether fatshark should balance the spawn rates across the difficulty grade? Absolutely. Anything up to and including malice is desolate emptiness, and then there’s sharp spikes in heresy and damnation, as well as their respective modifiers. Currently there is little to no gradiation in terms of spawn density. They should fix that first.

But leave the current auric damnation spawns alone, thank you bye.

^+1

^+1

My solution to doors? Give us space Hulk ability to seal doors
(for a limited time or on cd)

this way the team can create a defensive parameter during a horde.

I wouldn’t go this far, I would lean towards adding a mechanic, to classes or the doors themselves, that helps solve the issue instead of removing.

  1. seal doors (maybe if we get tools, or just use our fancy butt bag)
  2. if nurgle spawns from door, maybe the door becomes unworkable because of the goo.
  3. poxburster would destroy the door if exploded nearby.

I like this Idea. My friend and I went back to V2 and were discussing how each enemy in V2 you had to account for, each hit was felt so much more. In Darktide, the spam is so blatant that u just end up cutting through and forgetting mechanics. Like you said above, its just about trying to out damage the enemy, especially if your hits regen toughness!

2 Likes

Additional thoughts:
I tried out to play other classes more frequently, and boy is the zealot strong right now.
His range skills are just slightly worse than the veteran and his melee skills and mobility through the enemy hordes are unbelievably strong.
In comparison, when I was playing veteran, it felt like I was playing a small fragile child with a big gun, and now I’m playing John Rambo.
While playing zealot, I caught myself feeling that I don’t need strategy or positioning, hell not even a team, just enemies to feed my toughness. That means the class of the zealot invited me not to cooperate at all.
What I wish for this game, atm, it that all classes depend more on each other.

I’ve been maining vet for a while now, and going back to my zealot it was very freeing. Always feel like I am fighting with the vets skill tree, but the zealot’s is so simple.

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