Not the mixed hordes part, but you’re looking for a run with a 1h axe specifically with Bardin or Salty that’s also not a Zealot.
When the meta weapons are not 1H axes lol
Yeah, people don’t play it because it’s low THP generation, low Stagger, is too build heavy, and has low AoE killing power.
It’s extremely frustrating that the examples for this Weapon being good is an outlier that has heal generation increase, AS increase, and can getting hit doesn’t matter for, or spending 95% of the match with an S+ ranged weapon out.
But again, my point is “non-meta” =/= “not viable”. You can absolutely clear cataclysm with axe+handgun on Bardin or Axe+BoP on Salty (random examples), is it going to be as easy as a meta weapon? No. But it’s still a viable pick. You just have to play smarter. And a smarter play would be Grudge Raker over Handgun for Bardin and Volley Crossbow (since apparently GF Pistol is too op to make a point) for Salty to give some decent horde clear leaving your melee weapon for low density hordes and elites. Or not taking axe and bringing a better horde clear melee weapon.
You don’t build around one weapon, you build around your entire kit.
That’s the entire point though. Other Weapons can bounce off the build more, but on 1H Axe, the only thing that works is running OP AoE cleave Weapons.
If you ran 1H Axe Handgun RV or IB, you would just suffer for the entire match.
It doesn’t even need a huge buff, just something to increase Cleave and Stagger, so you can at least hit and get THP from 2 enemies at once (lets try that as a start?). I don’t think that’s a big ask or will break the game.
Even if it just had more AoE Stagger, but stayed lowish (slightly buffed) damage Cleave. At least it would do something outside of slowly wittling down one target at a time.
The moveset Light + Heavy Attacks also do the same job for 1H Axe, and they don’t even do it well, because of the other things I’ve mentioned. The only real use I can see for 1H Axe would be when playing ranged Weapons with massive AoE, and using the 1H Axe because you know you will have to kite a Chaos Patrol on it’s own at some point, like on FoW. Other than that, it’s just so unversatile, that it feels and is objectively bad for 90% of other situations.
2 Likes
But that’s subjective. You’re wanting to buff a weapon over subjectiveness.
To me, this boils down to the same situation with Javelin, but in reverse. Javelin was a master of all trades, it could do everything perfectly. When it was nerfed to be more specialized, people cried about how dead the weapon was because now they had to actually use their other weapon and couldn’t rely on infinite Cleave for hordes and perma-stagger and armor pen for chaos warriors. Axe can’t do everything, but it’s really good at what it can do, and picking it (even in Cataclysm+) is not a death sentence that dooms the run. You’re not going to get kicked for trolling because you picked Axe. It’s a perfectly viable weapon, it’s just not as strong as you’d like it to be.
OP asked how to make 1h axe viable. I responded that it is viable. There are better picks, sure, but that wasn’t the question.
It’s both subjective and objective, and even if it was only subjective, that’s what almost all balance changes are based on.
It’s objectively bad because:
- The worst THP generation melee Weapon in the game
- The lowest versatility melee weapon in the game (Heavy + Lights same job)
- Has a Damage-Cleave of one Infantry enemy - could use this to calculate how many enemies spawn in a Horde/mixed Horde, and how much damage/time it would take to actually kill it with 1H Axe
- Has a Stagger-Cleave of one Infantry enemy
- It’s function as a single target DPS is completely undermined by it’s inability to effectively AoE Stagger or Cleave during high density (Insert IB or RV vs mixed Hordes video here)
Don’t have access:
- Another objective measure would be over all melee damage of players with the Axe
- Possibly damage taken too
Subjective:
- The best builds for it are a melee outlier or spamming S+ ranged weapons for 95% of the match
- There’s 100 enemies on my screen, I can hit 1 for mediocre damage
- Low build variation
- Pressured as soon as more than one Elite in a Horde
- Low control to enable use of ranged weapon, unless said ranged weapon is an AoE spam Stagger weapon, in which case you can pre-spam the density
- I have less survival because of the low THP, making it frustrating to use compared to any other Weapon - effectively gives anyone else using it general BH THP - this problem is made worse by it’s low CC, which causes you to take more damage
Don’t have access:
- Popularity of 1H Axe on Cata
Do you think there’s a melee weapon worse than it? Nvm Mining Pick.
4 Likes
I don’t mind a weapon being specialised, it’s just that 1h axe isn’t nearly good enough at its speciality to justify its weaknesses.
In your BH build for example what really do you gain taking 1h axe over rapier, axe and falchion, or billhook? Those weapons all have similar to better elite kill times, better thp generation, similar to better range, better ability to manage density, and all have an easier time sniping elites out of hordes.
3 Likes
I get an attack pattern that I prefer over the other options. It’s player preference at that point. Sure the other options are objectively better for the reasons you stated, but:
a) they’re not sooooo much better that I’m gimping myself, they’re better by a slim enough margin that player skill can overcome a deficit. For example, I’m awful with the Bill hook combos, it doesn’t feel right to me and I suck with it. I don’t need to think with the axe, I don’t like the rapier’s attack patterns and while the axe and falchion is great, I use weapons with similar attack patterns on other characters, so the 1h axe is a change of pace without being a handicap.
b) this thread started with the OP asking “how do we make them viable without adding Cleave” and the answer to that is “they are viable, even if there’s better options.” if not being the best weapon means it’s not viable then why aren’t we asking for Axe and Falchion to be made viable? Or billhook? After all Rapier is the best Saltspyre weapon if you ask me. But if you ask Jim, Billhook is the best Saltzpyre weapon. Don’t ask Terry about it though, because he’s adamant that A&F is hands down the best Saltzpyre weapon.
It’s from 4 years ago, but I don’t think it’s been nerfed since then? Edit: nope. Only a buff to reduce stamina costs on push, so it’s actually “better” than when the video was posted.
I get your overall point, but to nitpick, they’re better by a slim margin at the thing that is meant to be 1h axe’s strength, and leagues better at the things axe is bad at.
Sure, if you take “viable” very literally, you are correct. Personally from experience when I read “viable” I take it to mean “have a reason to pick besides aesthetics”.
I think 1h axe could be improved noticeably without causing power creep or other balancing issues. Do you disagree?
3 Likes
He either uses the Drakefires or the bots kill most of those enemies… He’s pulling the 1H Axe out to push…
He literally loses on melee kills to a bot.
Hitting one Skavenslave per attack.
2 Likes
… Right? Because the axe isn’t a horde clear weapon? What’s the issue here? You asked for a video of an ironbreaker or ranger vet using the 1h axe on a mixed horde. He does, multiple times, throughout the ~40 minute video and while his focus on hordes is his horde clear weapon, he still uses the axe for melee kills, kiting, and defense on the horde.
Do you disagree, or would you like to keep moving the goalpost?
viable
adjective
Capable of success or continuing effectiveness; practicable: synonym: possible.
Just because you take viable to mean something else, doesn’t change what viable actually means.
I don’t, but we’re not talking about it feeling underpowered, we’re talking about it’s viability.
If you got kicked from matches because you picked axe, or if you couldn’t clear cataclysm (default cata, as anything harder is challenge runs) with an axe (and I don’t mean because of player skill, I mean picking axe genuinely prevented you from being able to clear the difficulty on its own merits). Then I’d absolutely agree that it’s not viable and needs buffed.
Unfortunately for OP, that’s not the case. You aren’t kicked for picking axe and you aren’t incapable of clearing cataclysm (or even harder difficulties) with an axe.
Could it be buffed a bit? Yes.
Is it viable? Also, yes.
I didn’t move the goalpost, you just ignored my initial request:
We’re talking about the 1H Axe, not Drakefire Pistols. My request was to see video of dealing with those enemies WITH THE AXE.
Thx. I won’t be going in circles while you ignore actual negative issues about the axe that I present and post videos of a different weapon to prove your point.
The only Weapon worse than it in the game is Mining Pick.
You asked for a video where an ironbreaker or ranger vet uses a 1h axe on a mixed horde. You’re being asinine if you expect any player to shoot themselves in the foot and use a single target elite killer as a horde clear weapon. We’ve been over this. The axe is not an all-Rounder and not a horde clear. Did this ironbreaker use an axe on the horde? Yes. Was it his primary weapon? No. Did he still use an axe and clear a cataclysm run with bots? Yes.
Seems like I fulfilled your request. Sorry that you don’t like the results.
If you go over any of my previous posts, I never “ignored actual negative issues” I’ve only addressed the topic of this post. The axe is a viable melee weapon. You can use it and succeed. It’s not going to cause you to fail. Just because it could use a bit more love than less stamina on pushes doesn’t make it not viable. This topic isn’t about “axe is underpowered” no matter how hard you try to gaslight me into thinking it is. It’s about:
“How can FS make one-handed axes(+crowbill) viable without giving them more cleave?”
You’re ignoring what I said again. Deal with those enemies WITH THE AXE.
You’re responding to me though, and you ignored:
To post a video of his ranged weapons. Dude is literally pulling out the Axe to push and then shooting. 
Just because you need a single target weapon to do it all, doesn’t make it not viable. Ffs it’s like talking to a brick wall. Would you, as a player, use a handgun on hordes?
Handgun, as a ranged special sniper, is not a viable ranged weapon because it doesn’t have the spread and fire rate to handle horde clear. As such its needs buffed. (Insert video of ironbreaker or ranger vet dealing with a mixed horde on cataclysm with only the handgun)
Do you see what’s wrong with that statement? You’re asking for evidence that a weapon can do something it wasn’t designed to do.
Sorry for making you feel left out not sure the best way to do this, so my responses are in bold:
Happy?
Edit, I forgot to add this video, but he fires a Grudge Raker at some point so it probably doesn’t fit your criteria despite being a ranger veteran dealing with a mixed horde on cataclysm (this time true solo)
No, the point I’m making is that the melee Weapon should gain versatility to deal with another situation other than being in some mystical 1v1 with an Elite, where it does mediocre damage anyway.
Beyond that, there’s been so much power creep in the game that 1H Axe is a bit of a joke in terms of it’s capabilities. Even in the video you posted, killing Stormvermin takes a while and relies on WHC 20% Damage pings.
Vague. The Axe has bad THP generation.
The difference is a damage increase and slower AS with the heavy. It still does the same job, which is the point.
Vague again. The point is that this is just another bad part of the axe.
Vague again. The point is that this is just another bad part of the axe.
I’d also make the point that Axe has both no Cleave and no Stagger-Cleave.
The point was that Axe is supposed to deal with armour, and doesn’t have a way to deal with multiple armoured enemies and Horde at once. You may as well use Axe and Shield and do the same job.
You could use Zealot and S+ ranged weapons to make any build in the game strong. The point is that 1H Axe RELIES on it.
It’s a clear problem with the axe’s ability to deal with a situation that is a huge part of the gameplay with this game. 1v1s are probably the rarest gameplay situation in a normal match, therefore a Weapon built around them is going to suffer just by existing.
Low build variation still stands, until I see the 1H Axe actually dealing with mixed Hordes without a ranged Weapon, and not taking 10 years to do so, with no help from WHC tags or bots doing all of the melee kills.
It also applies to the Stats on the Weapon.
Exactly, the argument for Axe to work is to just use a different Weapon. lol. It’s bad.
It clearly has bad THP generation. It cleaves 1, doesn’t have burst to guarantee Elite kills on Cata, or the safety to do so.
Video: It’s Legend and you can already see him run out of Stamina on a Horde with a single Shielder in. 
I should add one single shielder on Legend to the things this Weapon is bad at dealing with.
Also instead of running 1H Axe with an AoE Weapon, you could just run that AoE Weapon with a better melee Weapon and enjoy the game more.
1 Like
Shoot you right. I missed the title because axe is so niche to find on a game that already doesn’t have much representation on YouTube lol.
That’s not the argument though. 1h axe is not good against large numbers of enemies, aoe ranged weapons are. Aoe ranged weapons are not good at Armored elites, 1h axe is. They complement each other. I know that’s a hard concept for you.
“Low build variation still stands. Until I see a handgun actually dealing with mixed hordes without a melee weapon and not taking 10 years to do so, with no help from WHC tags or bots doing all of the kills.”
Guess Handgun isn’t viable, damn.
I understand pairing two weapons that compliment each other but why 1H Axe over Falchion?
They share the exact same heavy damage profile but Falchion is a much more versatile and comfier weapon to use.
The only things 1H Axe has over Falchion is the ability to 1 tap clan rats with less power investment and light attack damage vs armour.
It’s not really a comparable argument. Specials are arguably the biggest threat in V2.
Special sniping ranged weapons are far more valuable than horde clearing ranged weapons.
The point people are trying to make is why use 1H Axe when there are so many weapons with similar, if not better anti-amour capabilities without the drawbacks?
It has a niche but it doesn’t fulfil it very well. It deserves a buff.
Something as simple as replacing the push attack with a cleave attack would bring it out of the dumpster and into the trash can for most careers.
4 Likes
Just Bardin having two absurdly niche and weak weapons, in 1H Axe and Mining Pick, that have barely any build variety at all.