High Ranked Weaves Gameplay Feedback (120-160)

I finished a 160 run yesterday and wanted to give some feedback on high Weaves gameplay. I also would like to make a couple of suggestions. There have been numerous threads on surrounding issues like matchmaking, etc. So, this thread is not one of those, it’s focused on Ranked Weaves gameplay itself.

The main issue, ever since it had been raised during WoM closed beta, still is: over the top damage scaling. Every other gameplay issue concerning playstyle, exploits, career and build variety stems from this.

The current damage scaling - I don’t know how to describe this properly - is sadistic. But first and foremost, IT IS NOT FUN. Not a single bit. It never was. I dare you, Sharks, I double dare you to play a set of 8 weaves, one per each of the existing winds, with 1000% enemy damage, try to figure it out and complete them. Please, do it and tell me if you liked it.
Alternatively, conduct a quick survey among those ~40 players who have completed all high weaves (120-160) as of writing. I’d be surprised if any of those, but the ususal outliers, told you they had fun and looked forward to doing it again next season. From personal experience and talk with high weave players, none of them enjoyed it. None. Sure, we might be somewhat proud that we managed to endure all this but I kinda hate myself for feeling that way. That’s the point, right? If the damage scaling is sadistic, you’ve got to be a masochist to deal with it.

Make a guess how many other players are conditioned like this. Not many. Just because there are people who engage with this obscene content does not translate to them actually liking that content. Also, please don’t play the numbers game and think: ‘Only a tiny fraction of players do high weaves anyway and therefore we don’t want to spend more resources other than for necessary maintenance and reshuffling every few months’. The players who play high weaves are usually the most dedicated to Vermintide as a game. You gotta love something to suffer that much. Maybe I’m being unfair making uneducated guesses on your stance on how to handle Weaves. But, for what it’s worth, that’s the impression I got.

Now, let’s get to the issues that all are a consequence of damage scaling.

Playstyle

or: how to punish players for engaging in melee combat in a melee-focused game

If you want to fight mobs in melee then you should not play high weaves. Since here the very core of Vermintide’s praised gameplay loop is cast aside and almost made impossible to engage in.

Depending on your career’s base HP and/or (inherent) damage reduction, you will get oneshot by melee hits starting somewhere in the range of ~250% to 450% enemy damage (ie. weaves ~125 to 135). Crank enemy damage up a little further and players will also die to some ‘secondary damage’ sources which they usually don’t even notice as much: long distance gatling gunner bullets or random arrows from archers. Other damage sources like ground fire from flamers or Stormfiends, Troll puke, blighstormer vortex’ DoTs are not as punishing (as in: those don’t oneshot you) but deal considerable amounts of damage.
Concering wind modifiers, lightning strikes oneshot you, thornes deal 40 to 50 damage each, fire DoTs - funnily enough - become obsolete because you already die to the melee hit that would apply the DoT afterwards. Ghost and Light wind effects also become meaningless in a sense because you exist in just two states: either you are alive or you’re dead. The entire health bar is of no use, 1 HP has the same value as 180. Ironically, the only exception (or utility rather) comes with Natural Bond since this trait, when at 100% green HP, lets you survive one melee hit that would have downed you otherwise. Amber wind doesn’t have any effect as totems are destroyed asap anyway. So, in general, most wind effects lose their overall impact on gameplay in higher weaves completely. That’s sad.

Considering all issues related to damage, engaging in melee combat is neither the safest strategy (it’s close to not being a strategy at all) nor the most efficient. This is insane. We’re playing Vermintide after all, right? So, what playstyle derives from this. A cheesy one that many players rightfully deem not fun and entertaining. The central idea is that three players camp at a convenient location to kill mobs as safe as possible while the fourth player triggers spawns, directs aggro and does the map objectives. You’ll get one or two tanks that only exist for the sake of crowd control and staying alive so that the remaining players can play off of them staggering enemies permanently.
Whatever your group’s career composition, I’d wager that in high weaves more than 66% of all damage dealt (at least) comes from ranged options, mostly flamethrowers/shotguns. The remaining percentage is melee damage dealt against permanently staggered enemies or during cheese like invisibility (Shade) or while in safe spots. The moment you can’t take the occasional hit during fights anymore, or chip damage of any kind, the core gameplay of Vermintide is dead. All that is left for players to do at this point is to come up with coping strategies. Actual fun is nowhere to be found near these, obviously. Oh, I think I forgot to mention that you’re always holding block whatever you do to minimize the chances of getting hit randomly - that’s some wrist pain right there.

Builds

or: just don’t get hit 4Head

From my personal experience, the meta for high weaves is ridiculously stale and shallow. For the last two, if not three seasons, my group has been playing ~90% of all high weaves with Shade, FK, BW and IB. We found this to be the most efficient and safest way to tackle high weaves revolving around the playstyle mentioned above. So our composition looks like this: Staggerknight for main tanking and CCing, IB as tank support/CC utility; BW as main damage dealer for the ‘camping group’ and support CC with her kit; and Shade for main elite/monster damage dealing and mobility/utility for map objectives.
Very rarely, if ever, do we deviate from this composition. For Gold weaves only, we tend to pick GK and BH/WHC instead of BW and FK since you need way more armored elite (burst) damage here and, usually, trash mob density isn’t as high to warrant picking BW to deal with this. If you happen to not like one of those careers or the gameplay that comes with it, well, you gotta take that bullet. It’s not about fun anyway.

Let’s take a closer look at those builds. FK and IB will bring shields for stagger and CC. Both careers are not meant to engage in melee combat to deal damage, they are just there to stay alive, and to provide space and opportunity for the BW to damage permanently staggered enemies. FK exceeds in stagger power and maintains some stagger breakpoints even on Cata3. IB’s ult is a fail-safe mainly for unpredictable monk/zerker movement (they like to glitch through all the slots there are) or to get a slim chance of actually reviving a downed player when everything oneshots. Rather rarely in comparison is IB’s ult used offensively to turn some backs so that Shade gets free damage. BW mostly plays around Famished Flames with Flamestorm staff and Flamesword’s H1 (against stacked elites). Shade is the most versatile and mobile since she is essentially the only career that ‘progresses’ through the map relying on chaining invsibility with Cloak of Mist/Vanish. You kite or hop into a safe spot as long as Infiltrate isn’t up and only with invisibility ready you take on whatever job you’re supposed to do. The combination of Cloak of Mist/Vanish also provides the safest DPS output for the group when you’re kinda on the run and can’t get the upperhand.
BH is picked to be Blockspyre, shooting stuff with guaranteed crits either from Rapier’s sidearm pistol (100% safe) or ranged weapons (not as safe). We only bring BH when there is no use for BW and/or we need some very safe double-shotting monster deletion. GK only accompanies Shade as main damage dealer in Gold weaves since he’s a power stacking abomination that can oneshot CWs (crit headshot with all powerups and power vs.) even on Cata3 because of the overall higher powerlevel in Weaves.

I know that there are other groups who pick different careers. I’ve also seen a few Handmaidens which might be a remnant of the old despawning meta, or just for some other cheese. But the core elements don’t change. Obivously, individual player skill can make a huge difference here. If you’re a godlike WHC or Slayer, for instance, and literally don’t ever get hit (no meme), you might pull this off in higher weaves. But looking at the leaderboards (blatant cheaters aside), those are quite rare in number. So, generally, the rest of us stick to the most meta and most boring and dull team compositions there are.

Exploits

or: learn how to break the game

The amount of cheese you have to come up with to complete most, if not all, of the higher weaves is just silly. But it is the most efficient way to deal with that kind of damage scaling. Even with the most glaring exploit gone, the deliberate despawning of enemies, you still want to activate as many spawn triggers as possible by one player while the rest of the team kills the spawned mobs at a somewhat safe location. The only thing that changed in this regard is that the player triggering spawns has to survive while falling back to not lose aggro and to keep the distance to the rest of the team as short as possible in case he dies so that mobs still keep aggro on living players.

Invisibility has always been the go-to cheese as it lets you abuse the aggro system. Again, Cloak of Mist/Vanish Shade saves the day. Its usefulness for 100% safe damage and movement has been covered in the above section, its high utility to do objectives while invisible is the second part to it. Why engage with mobs anyway when you can just run past them? Chaining invisibility as efficient as possible is key - and such an awful way to play.

Next to invisibility shenanigans, and almost as important, is Battle Wizard’s teleport. Having played Sienna for four seasons now, I’ve come to know several out of bounds glitches and safe spots on all weave maps and I use them excessively without shame. I’ve been walking on skyboxes to deal free damage to mobs without aggro or hold monster aggro infinitely so that my team can do whatever. Looking at the leaderboards, scores and team compositions tell quite the story. BW is present in the majority of compositions not only because of her very safe and high DPS output (see above section) but because she can provide 100% succesful runs, or strategies, by exploiting her teleport. There have been a couple of groups pushing for 160 early on and two or three of those groups had players streaming their runs but, miraculously, all of them stopped streaming at some point soon beyond 120. Guess why? Mostly because none of them wanted to disclose the exploits that they were planning to use. No one wants Fatshark to patch these for obvious reasons. Hell, I myself am not even giving teleport spots away to other players asking me for help because I don’t want those gone. That’s fukced up.

Apart from invisibility and teleport exploits, there is a thing I like to call ‘dead spots’, ie. locations where you can shove mobs off a ledge and they die immediately. I’m not talking about ledging monsters at a cliff, that’s basic. I’m talking about finding a weird push angle to shove mobs down at the side of a set of stairs, for instance, where they die instantly because the game can’t find valid pathing for them anymore so they pop out of existence. That’s safer and more efficient than actual fighting and can be done just fine with the obligatory shields.

Finally, and this mainly applies to shadow weaves, you’re going to rigidly abuse LoS. Gunners, archers, flamers, and to some degree banners, are best dealt with by hiding around a safe corner to break line of sight and by simply waiting for mobs to come around. That’s so stupid that I can never believe I’m actually doing this when I do it.

All of this is such obnoxious gameplay! Yet, cheese and exploits almost look like the only way to get things done efficiently, if at all, in higher weaves. Unironically, I believe that even Fatshark is aware of this. If they patched the majority of those exploits they’d remove the only access to QoL for players in high weaves gameplay. Just let this thought sink in.

Suggestions

  • Tune down the damage.
    Cap enemy damage at a threshold that would let beefier careers survive at least one occasional melee hit. Most importantly, tuning damage down would get rid of the REALLY frustrating stuff like archer one/twoshots or gunner long distance two/threeshots. So many issues would just fade away if you did this. And it’s literally just number cranking in terms of programming effort. Sure, some of the current spawn waves, etc. would have to be looked at again manually in order to rebalance them when players could tackle them way more offensively and aggressively - but any hour spent here would be worth it a dozen times!
    With ‘rebalancing spawn waves’ I obviously don’t mean to increase them in size or number but in variety and challenge. Uncomfortable combinations of enemies have always created the best kind of difficulty and challenge in Vermintide. That’s why people like Onslaught’s take on several game aspects or even Twitch mode that spawns a ton of additional mobs into otherwise stale situations.

  • No rewards tied to 120-160 without drastic changes.
    I think I’m not exaggerating stating that rewards (even if it’s just one portrait frame, for now) should not be tied to the completion of weaves 120 to 160 in their current state as this locks out 99% of the playerbase. Not only because of the difficulty-induced requirements but also because of the troubles in matchmaking and organizing/maintaining regular group play. Usually, I’m one of those appreciating ingame rewards that I can show off to tell others that I have put a certain amount of time, dedication, and/or skill into something. But Weaves make me hate myself for this attitude. Unless Fatshark is willing to make drastic changes to high weave gameplay, for the love of Sigmar, please refrain from tying rewards to them. At the moment, it is just a masochistic chore and so far removed from any fun and enjoyment I almost can’t wrap my head around it.

  • Expand the checkpoint system.
    Currently, players who completed weaves 1 to 40 in any season will get a head start so they can start at weave 41 in a new season. This checkpoint system should be expanded. If you manage to beat 41 to 80 in a season as well, you should be eligible to start at 81 next season. I’m kinda torn whether there should be even a third checkpoint at 120 allowing players who beat 81-120 to start at 121 each season.
    Considering weaves 1 to 80, difficulty values change gradually from Recruit to Cata3 without any damage scaling in place. Additionally, the amount and composition of enemies spawned in all fixed waves increases for each set of 40 weaves getting harder with every iteration. Concerning the amount and composition of spawn waves, the third set of 81-120 is identical with the fourth set of 121-160 (only difference here is damage scaling). So, there’s somewhat of a learning curve to be experienced in the two lowest weave sets (1-40 and 41-80), and to some degree even in the third set (81-120) where slight damage scaling starts to kick in at Weave 101. Anyway, advanced players could and should be able to skip at least weaves 1 to 80 and, arguably, even 81 to 120 once they’ve proven themselves and beat the respective sets once in any season.

  • Unlocking higher level achievements (Okri’s) should unlock lower level ones.
    This one is very closely related to the previous suggestion. Technically, it should work like the Helmgart map completion challenges: You unlock one of those on Legend, then you automatically unlock Recruit, Veteran and Champion as well. You unlock the achievement for set 81-120, you should automatically unlock the ones for the lower sets 1-40 and 41-80 as well. This is meant to reduce the absurd, disrespecting and mind-numbing grind that comes with obtaining all portrait frames each season. I have played 1 to 120 four times now, once to 160 (this time) and once to high 130s (Season 1). I’m actually sick of it. Personally, I don’t feel challenged for repeatedly playing the lower weave sets. Rather, it’s just a huge timesink and another chore I will never look forward to.

  • Leaderboard placements should be based on consecutive weave completions only.
    Ever since the introduction of leaderboards, they have been skewed. They’re meaningless in the sense that they don’t account for overall progression. Currently, players earn placements simply by their highest ever completed weave. A player who completed 120 to 159 will be placed lower than a player who was invited and only completed weave 160. Please make consecutive weave completions the primary condition for leaderboard placements.

Finally, I’m directly pinging @Fatshark_Hedge here in the hope that he’ll direct this feedback to whoever Shark is responsible for making decisions in regards to the Weaves game mode.

30 Likes

Originally, I meant to post my own feedback thread but I will just add it here.

This feedback will primarily deal with season 4 weaves, as well as the design of weaves in general.
I will then propose some solutions and add some more minor ideas at the very end.
These (central) suggestions all seem fairly easy to implement and do not require a complete rework of the weave system. The idea behind these solutions is to improve what is already there, not to change it into sth. else entirely.

Tl;dr at the bottom.

To give a bit of context, I have completed 120 weaves in season 1, season 2, season 3 and 160 weaves in season 4.

Starting with season 4 feedback:

  • 160 frame: I am of the opinion that adding a frame for 160 is not a good idea. The reason being the dmg scaling as well as the intense grind from 40 to 160 making obtaining this frame a major pain. More on those 2 factors later.

  • Removing the “despawning of enemies to get essence:”
    Understandable since it was not the intended way to play weaves.
    However, I would ask myself why people preferred to play that way in the first place.
    One answer could be that people are lazy and will always choose the path of least resistance. Then again, the more likely explanation is that the current system is simply not well designed: the dmg scaling and the huge grind associated with weaves mean that they are not enjoyable for the vast majority of players.
    Ultimately, this leads to players “wanting to get this over with” by getting the weaves done in the most efficient way possible as they are not fun to play at all.

  • Breaking up the winds into groups of 1 instead of all 5 weaves of the same wind is a nice change of pace.

As mentioned above, the issues highlighted in season 4 are present in the core design of weaves. These are related to weaves in general:

  • Dmg scaling: This system is straight-up not fun. It’s not even just “not fun.” It’s “anti fun,” it makes the whole experience miserable and is in direct conflict with the core design of Vermintide 2 as a game.
    The results of getting 1shot by basically any enemy attack are a series of univocally disastrous gameplay consequences.
    The common melee gameplay ceases to exist:
    Players will either hide behind shields or use ranged weapons or abilities to deal any dmg while hiding behind their shield buddies.
    Being in melee and playing aggressively is no longer feasible and therefore eliminates the very core of Vt2’s melee gameplay.
    Enemies that are balanced around their normal dmg values become incredibly dangerous to the point where they are imbalanced and have lost any nuance.
    Vermintide has some unavoidable chip damage (gutter runner push on client etc. …), especially on client and increasing the dmg dealt to players leads to all of these issues becoming more apparent than ever.
    “1 gunner bullet and you’re dead, 1 archer arrow and you’re dead:”
    That means that enemies that were designed to mostly suppress, interrupt or annoy players are now completely broken in terms of effectiveness and lack of counterplay.
    (Unless killing them before they can even attack counts as counterplay, which it does not in my opinion. That is just avoiding the issue altogether instead of having any chance to be reactive rather than proactive).
    To spare everyone an even lengthier analysis I will conclude that dmg scaling is a poor substitute for challenge.
    Yes, it makes the game “harder” but not in any enjoyable or engaging manner. All it does is promote absolutely unpleasant gameplay that is also antithetical to the principal basis upon which this franchise is built.

  • Seasonal rewards: While I understand that rewards are one way to incentivize playing a gamemode, I cannot help but feel that the vast majority of players only play weaves because of the exclusive frames and not because they find weaves enjoyable.
    I can only speak for so many people, but I think that this is not great system.
    Players that were unable to play during a specific season are locked out of rewards and many other players are “forced” to play a mode they do not find fun.

  • Grind: By grind I am referring to having to unlock every weave after weave 40 again every single season.
    It only wastes time and makes you replay the same set of 40 weaves – and that every season! This is made even worse by the fact beating e.g. 80 -120 does not automatically unlock the rewards for 1-40 and 40-80 – despite them literally being the same set of weaves only at a lower difficulty.

Central Suggestions: These are solutions to the core issues discussed above and are of the highest priority for a rework of weaves imo.

  • Remove the dmg scaling altogether. This would mean 120-160 would be same as 80-120. In order to fix that, make 40-80 Cata1, 80-120 cata2, and 120-160 cata3. As a result, weaves would be easier overall – a good thing since it would make them more accessible – and they would be a far more pleasant experience. The dmg scaling needs to be removed. Period.

  • Make the starting weave (1, 41, 81, 121) of every weave set unlocked from the start, for everybody. By weave set I mean the 40 weaves that form each set of 1-40, 40-80, 80-120, 120-160 respectively. So you could start at 121 right from the start if you wanted to do the 120-160 set – without having to grind from 40 all the way to 160. The reason is simple: if you are good enough to beat the highest difficulty set, you are good enough to beat the lower difficulty set => Thus, there is no need to go and do the lower difficulty set in the first place. Respect players’ time and let us start with any set of weaves! (Other people have called this the “checkpoint system” that is already in place for the weaves 1-40).

  • Rewards for the higher difficulty set should also automatically unlock the rewards for the lower difficulty sets. This goes hand in hand with the previous suggestion. If you beat 80-120 and unlock the frame, you should automatically be given the frames for 1-40 and 40-80 too.

Minor Suggestions: Controversial or more time and resource consuming ideas that are of secondary nature regarding weaves overall.

  • Seasonal rewards: I would like to see the rewards for previous season being recycled every year.
    As in, season 5 could give you the season 2 frames again, season 6 the season 3 frames etc.
    This is a bit controversial as it would mean no more “new” frames but they are all recolors anyway.
    At one point, new rewards for weaves should simply stop being made since we would end up with dozens of recolored frames that only take up inventory slots. Pull the plug now by letting players obtain the frames they missed each year and save us poor completionists the headache of getting every new weave frame.

  • Regular rewards: Ranked weaves should give you regular loot chests, not because the hardcore players need them but because new players are handicapping themselves by playing weaves due to not getting any gear by doing so.
    Add a Soldier’s box/coffer/chest/vault for the respective difficulty of each ranked weave.
    Other ideas include the weaves skins for each weapon, obtained by maxing it out in the athanor and doing 1 weave with it or similar (simple and non-grindy!) challenges.

  • Change the effects of some weaves. Most of them only exist to punish the player, not to offer new ways of playing the game.
    E.g. fire, light, heavens are decent as they affect players and enemies alike.
    The rest are just there to make the game harder and do not offer any kind of new interactions. While completely revamping them is probably out of the question, some small changes would go a long way.
    E.g. removing the dmg reduction for cloaked enemies in shadow weaves, making it so that enemies will also trigger the thorns in life weaves, increasing the lightning dmg to enemies in heaves etc.
    The winds should affect players and enemies alike, offer new ways to explore gamepay and not just exist to make the game harder for players.

  • Taking another look at enemy spawns. Again, likely a lot of work.
    Nevertheless, a lot of the artificial difficulty in weaves comes from very imbalanced spawns, such as a several disabler bursts when coming close to the portal.
    Similar to the dmg scaling, this does not really offer any sort of proper challenge but it promotes cheesy tactics such as using invisibility to rush to the portal.
    Not exactly my definition of engaging or fun or challenge.
    Getting face spawned and ganked by 6 invisible gunners that oneshot you and that have 80% dmg reduction while cloaked is a far cry from the best experience Vermintide 2 has to offer.

  • Remove the timer. Make the time still count for the leaderboard for all I care but the timer can go.
    Losing because a timer ran out and not because you actually got defeated feels severely unsatisfactory. The timer only exists to force players to do the aforementioned rush to the portal through disabler bursts with invis classes.

Tl;dr:

Essential changes:

  • Completely remove the dmg scaling. Replace it with simple cata1, cata2, and cata3 difficulty levels for weaves 40-80, 80-120, 120-160 respectively.

  • Make the starting weave (1, 41, 81, 121) of every weave set unlocked from the start. There is no need to regrind previous weaves if you can beat the higher difficulty weaves.

  • Rewards for the higher difficulty set should also automatically unlock the rewards for the lower difficulty sets. Doing e.g. 80-120 should give the rewards for 1-40 and 40-80 as well.

Weaves are already not very popular and keeping the current system will only exacerbate this issue. These are changes that would massively improve weaves and make them significantly more appealing to more players.

11 Likes

Also joining this thread : The Great Weaves Feedback Thread (Season 4 edition - NEW AND AWESOME ! 50% DISCOUNT ON NEW REPLIES)

Will also ping @Fatshark_Hedge so we get at least SOME QoL next season if a weave rework can’t be done before. I think it’s pretty important to not make us mad when it comes out =p

3 Likes

It’s mind-boggling how bad this is. I think they should do something entirely different (and way less grindy) on top of removing the “sadistic” features.
I’ve personally never tried to go past weave 40 as I like the base game, not cheesy tactics, and I’m not sure anything beyond cata (1) should belong in the official realm (if it does, it shouldn’t belong only in weaves.) I’m not sure where exactly it gets so removed from the basic gameplay to require cheese, but everybody I know of thoroughly hates high level weaves (@Froh mentions a premade group he knows of kind of enjoys them, but that’s all the proof I have to the contrary).

I’m a completionist myself, not counting weaves I’m only missing 2 challenges in the entire game - the cata challenge from convo, and the bell one (which is currently bugged) - so I understand why all you fine players are doing them while hating them, I’d have done the same had I found a group and if they weren’t so insulting. I need to stress this up: I feel like Fatshark is insulting me and my love for the game with this system.

PS Doubting Fatshark even cares about this, as they seem to be intent on having us grind and/or suffer rather than enjoy the game, I can only, in good faith, advice everybody who, like the OP, is “hating himself for doing this” to try and resist the urge to play this out of a sense of obligation. Seek professional help if you need it.
I hope this doesn’t sound like trolling, I really mean it.

3 Likes

Totally agree but… Why are you all so surprised at how bad it sucks?

WE know it. FATSHARK know it. This experience is pretty similar to season 1’s 120 weaves… Fatshark KNEW our feedback. They even fixed them, because they knew what broken mess they were.

I’m offended (as a customer) by the Fatshark’s behavior… instead of improve weaves (and we are giving them a lot of good suggestions)… they made them even worse, forcing us to repeat the terrible season 1’s experience.

3 Likes

You dont need to cheese anything until you come close to 120. The damage scaling is only a problem very few people ever experienced. I just doesnt help that the highest weaves have that reputation. It puts a stain on all of it.
Cata 3 is completely fine and quite reasonable. Being onehit by a slave, arrow, rattling isnt. Having a timer that isnt reasonably beatable without breaking the game in every possible way isnt.

I can only second the plead that asks the weaves devs to play one weave each on the highest damage scaling.

5 Likes

That’s too hard. If you ask me 1 Weave is enough, but instead of just playing it, they should finish it. How about 140? :kissing_heart:

2 Likes

I do support that statement. And it’s interesting to note that streamers do not usually cheese until 120, and then stop streaming to actually not show cheese spots so they do not get patched next season.
The whole 40-80 is a rather pleasant experience though. So this mode is not “all bad and sucks hard”. It’s just that the difficulty scale is scaling the frustration more than the difficulty and also close a lot of options when it comes to playing what you want (as melee is actually shut down hard by the stagger/cleave/damage resistance, and the damage scaling).

2 Likes

As someone who completed 1-160 last week and has played every season to 160 i agree with everything the OP said, there is no point me making a huge list of complaints when i already agree with OP on all points.

These clueless weave devs keep wondering why weaves are so unpopular when they have posts like OPs explaining it to them every season. Lol.

6 Likes

The only way i could describe high level weaves is “unfair” and “anti-fun”. The concept of high weaves is a joke right now . Even if leaderboards meant something they are now moot since they only show how well you can execute cheese against unfair oneshot mechanics (which are exacerbated by vermintides terrible netcode/stability/bugs/hitboxes etc).

Due to the “difficulty” of high weaves players are basically forced to use any cheese they can. This is normal, players will generaly use the path of least resistance and least resistance on high weaves is cheese. As OP said meta revolves around tanks (ib, fk, handmaiden) staggering and tanking everything and killing it from range (maybe shade depending on weave), avoiding actual melee combat like the devil.

This all stems from the damage scaling. We didn’t employ real cheese until the ungodly weave that is 134 where stuff was one shotting us and the end event was completely unfair with the triple moomoo, 20 bestigors, 80 gors and 200 oneshotting archers. Cheese is just an extension of the don’t get hit meta. I stopped having fun around 120 which just so happens to be when the damage scaling started. Cata3 is the real end content for me.

The next biggest offender for me is the timer. It’s literally impossible to finish some weaves unless you have insane tempo which usually forces you to pull way more than you can handle in a normal melee manner, let alone when everything one shots you.

Imagine this: There’s 8-10 minutes left (with 0 deaths so far) and the gate is opened with 1 objective left to be done. Between you and the gate stand 10 standards and around 200 gors. Do you slowly push/ult your way to the banners one by one and kill everything so you can deal with the 6 disablers that spawn at the next gate along with the 15 monks OR you have your invis class drink 1 potion and rush to the end and skip everything?

This pretty much forces certain careers to be played.
IB/FK because they are the best tanks.
BW because its the only wizard career with an escape and multiple staggers.
Shade/Handmaiden depending if you need more tanking or more elite/boss killing power
The rest of the entire roster is completely useless (except for very particular cases like gold weaves where you can switch FK for more killing power).

It is completely obvious that fatshark has not playtested the weaves at all (let alone played them themselves lol). I have 0 experience from previous seasons and once we reached the higher weaves I instantly started learning all the out of reach cheese spots immediately since they are not that hard to find anyway.

At this point I dont understand what the point of the weaves is. The only link to the main game is a frame, you cant even get the weave weapon skins. Everything feels completely broken, with broken one shot mechanics and a broken game crashing every 4th attempt. The hardcore fans are pretty much the only ones playing and that is they are playing the weaves DESPITE how unfun they are. The extremely vast majority of the playerbase doesn’t even touch weaves and for a good reason.

Gonna finish the weaves this season and never ever touch them again, i don’t need to prove more than once that i can beat the game. I feel truly sorry for anyone who played multiple “seasons” of this. I have infinitely more fun from qp cata than this.

Who knows, maybe the 1 intern they left behind not working on reskinning vermintide to danktide will fix the weaves next season. Just like they fixed them every time since season 1.

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I mean, the topic was not here to know if fatshark playtested their weaves or not. The mode itself was not made, at the beginning, to be finished. They were probably targeting people to finish near 120 and did not expect them to go beyond.

They did see some issue with damage scaling, s1 was pushing it starting at 92, compared to 102 the next season. And they did fixed a lot of the difficulty weird spikes that we did find on s1.

So the topic is here to act on some QoL before next season so the “main” drawbacks disappears, waiting for a possible remake further down the line.

I don’t even wanna know how it was if this is with “lots of difficulty spikes fixed”. Starting on cata weaves without scaling you can clearly see extremely easy and extremely difficult weaves alternating very often. And lo and behold the ones who took more than 1 try then, take tens of tries 40 weaves later while the rest are still easy as they were.

As far as damage scaling goes the pattern is pretty obvious. It went from 92-102-120. So since people are complaining again fatshark is gonna push again to 130…

But i have lost faith with fatshark a long time ago and until they change the weaves drastically (which will most likely not happen) i won’t be touching them with a 10 foot pole attached to my ironbreaker shield.

Well I did find fatshark improvement actually great so far. They just probably didn’t have time to revisit that specific mode yet (or are still working on it).

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To be honest, I’d rather wait for a decent remake than slog through another season of the - at least very similar feeling if not 100% identical - Weaves. On top of that, a recolored frame just isn’t worth the time investment at some point, at least it feels bad when you see that there’s really only a minimum of effort on FatShark’s part as “credit” for player time. I would really prefer if Seasons are longer but more significant changes are made and the rewards are recognizable as such. But I also have to honestly say that I don’t expect Weaves to become a good game mode in the foreseeable future. Not even with the changes proposed here do I believe it could “excite” players for longer than 1-2 additional seasons. The fundamental problem in my opinion is that it just doesn’t feel like a new experience in the Weaves in a new season, reshuffling all well and good but it remains the same experience from season to season (so far). One reason for this is certainly that the mutators are pretty irrelevant, the maps are repetitive, the spawns after the 16th replay (so if you have played all seasons up to 160) are also gone into the marrow and leg and the arenas unfortunately also offer only a limited amount of variety. I think to make the mode permanently attractive it needs continuous innovations and not just a reshuffle and I just doubt that FatShark wants to/will have the capacity for that (and on top of all even comes bugfixing).

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Damage increase is insane. I agree. However, I love the idea that greater rift like game mode. Something should increase as well as stage number increases. Damage, health, enemy number. IMO, damage increase is the eaisiest one. Think about much more assassins with ulgu or bullet sponge stormfiend+CW with chamon. I would rather play with one shotting damage.
I’m not saying that weave should remain as it is. Scailing could be change though, it’s not that imminent.
First comes first.

Most of people don’t play weave and regard weave as dead mode. But until 120, weave is not that insane. They don’t play anyway. Problem is matchmaking and progression. They are not gonna play no mater what Fatshark do with scailing.

Why Fatshark would waste time on higher weave? Even if they change what you want, people are not gonna buy WOM.

Progression problem should come first. You should be able to play weave with anyone and get reward. There shouldn’t be appointment between players. This game is not MMORPG. New player wants to play weave. But with whom? It’s so hard to ask someone in this game. If other people are willing to play, they would already have played when season started. If they are not willing to play, they won’t play anyway. Only kind person who finished weave already and willing to play again would help. To reach over 120 at non-season start, you need them anyway. But they are so rare. You can’t expect that easily. Weave is wrong from start.

After weave has enough player base, Fatshark may care 120+ weave.

What I think as problem on weave are progression and also bad balance beteween mutator. Mutators are not fun at all.

I have to confess that I have enjoyed reaching 160. I helped many other players as well. This season or previous season anyway. I usually play HM. HM is not for cheese in case if you want to know. Clearing difficult stage is all about HM soloing. killing 5 disabler alone and fill up 3 beacon or soloing chunk in time. You don’t have to clear the most difficult weaves only with cheese.

I really think problem of weave is not just difficulty. It is hard but not that impossibly hard. Can clear without cheese. Only takes more hours of trial. Not that much more.

And I really hope Fatshark will care about weave population as well as entire player population.

Greatest post on this forum yet, agree with everything here and hope that our friends at fatshark reads this.

Cheers

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OP’s post perfectly sums up everything wrong with weaves. I did 160 in season 1 and 4, and 120 in season 2 and 3, and I can relate to everything written here. Especially this sentence:

The only reason I play weaves is because I am a completionist and a collector and want those limited-time Okri’s Challenges, and the Portraits that come with them. If Fatshark removed seasonal rewards from weaves, I bet the amount of people playing them would reduce to only a fraction of its current playerbase, if even that.

I hope the developers are taking notes. Weaves really need to be worked on.

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They really know… and they exploit this to “steal” hours of gameplay to players.

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I haven’t touched weaves after my initial season 1 push into the upper 100:s but its actually bit sad that the 120-160 is still in such a laughable state.
Completionism should not require literal hours of absolute torture. This is also why I haven’t touched them again after S1, once was enough for me and my group.

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Weaves are an abysmally painful trash heap. The only redeeming quality is your ability to directly apply stats to gear – this should become the standard for the game. Everything else should be loaded onto a rocket and fired into the sun, never to be seen or heard from again. Absolutely everything about the weave experience just makes the game worse, right down to the stupidly blinding visual effects. I did S1, at the behest of my friend group. I hated every minute of it and my drive to play the game still hasn’t recovered from the torture of the experience. As a result I barely ever login and when I do its to play a couple of rounds at best, much to the dismay of my friends who still do weaves every season – completionist.

And the reward for this torture session? A couple of hue shifted shite-tier portrait frames. In a way I’m glad the rewards are shite tho, otherwise I’d feel like I’m missing out on something I’d like to have. No reward short of cash payments could make it worthwhile, tho.

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