Halberd combo changes are going against weapon design philosophy of Vermintide

[Incandescent]

@anon75893681

that we just added in as a ‘base’ feature, when it shouldn’t be.
Imagine billhook without stamina regen and try to horde clear. Should we make the sweep more accessible and infinitly chainable if they ever remove stamina regen? Pretty sure if they removed all stamina regen sources, billhook wouldn’t be top tier anymore, as we would actually use the billhook how it was designed, but players like to cover their weaknesses on weapons to a point where they don’t even matter.

I find this statement curious, especially the

@anon75893681

as we would actually use the billhook how it was designed

Weapons are designed, at least partially, with their environment in mind. The game is a cohesive whole where talents, weapons, properties and traits are designed to synergise in certain capacities, or not synergise at all. This is where builds come from, it’s why they exist as they do and how we end up with a “meta”. Just about every video game has this, whether it be diablo, total war, warframe or even runescape. IF a developer produces a tool that ends up being used in a way that is “unintended” because players put 2 and 2 together, then that is bad design, especially seeing as stamina regen has been a thing long before billhook ever was, block cancelling too has been a thing long before halberd was; in vermintide 1 block cancelling was effectively the norm for most weapons

@doom_hamster

Sometimes working within limitations can produce more unique and interesting results, because you have to use ingenuity to work around the limitation, rather than copy-pasting an already working solution, like adding 2 horde sweeps back to back to the halberd.

This statement is also curious to me since all of our changes were born from working within our limitations. Unless I’m misinterpreting this statement and you’re actually praising the changes here, otherwise, colour me confused.

@doom_hamster

Hell, there’s a subclass of weapons with no anti-horde attacks at all, do they also require adding repeating horde-clear attacks? - 1h axe, elven axe, dual axes, dual daggers, crowbill.

well clearly we didn’t adjust those weapons to have horde clearing attacks, in fact, I nerfed the horde clearing of dual daggers.

@doom_hamster

If you start adding chainable sweeps with good cleave to every weapon, the arsenal would become too similar

it’s a good thing we didn’t do this then,

@doom_hamster

Biggest point of single target weapons is that they require more teamwork skills and a different playstyle, but should reward the same or slightly greater results.

I honestly don’t think that’s true in regards to teamwork, granted that may be a way to get around it, generally all it means is an increase of mechanical intensity and indeed a different playstyle and/or build. In the case of daggers they absolutely rewarded a greater result, too great a result imo hence the nerf.

@doom_hamster

I strongly believe that was the theme developers were going for

That’s fair but again this is very much in keeping with the theme in this thread of making statements on design intent without actually knowing whether or not that’s the case.

@doom_hamster

As a heavy it could work, though it would be similar to sienna flail except the damage profile.

Maybe, it’s a shame we never got to test it but oh well, maybe another time. And yes it would be similar to Sienna flail barring the whole explosion thing and different light chain. it would still be very different from Saltz flail in a lot of aspects, more so than at least the difference between 1h sword on Sienna and Kruber, 1h mace on Kruber and 1h hammer on Bardin, mace and shield on kruber and bardin; and greatsword on Saltz and Kruber. All of which are complete carbon copies of each other barring cosmetics. It’d be an interesting project to maybe vary those weapons up for each character but that may not be something Fatshark wants to do and it wasn’t something we bothered with ourselves either. May be something to ask about/look into one day.