Got a Warhammer Fantasy lore question? I'll answer it

Warhammer: Vermintide 2 Lore Talk & Discussion
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For context, I draw mostly upon the 6-8th Edition books for the tabletop wargame, secondarily on the 2nd Edition of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. I don’t really think the End Times is good writing so I tend to mostly ignore it, and haven’t read any novels, so again they’ll be pretty summarily ignored. Think of my answers as describing the world in the state it was before everything went to hell with the End Times.

My primary interest is the magic of the world but I’ve gone through just about all of the sources I’ve listed above with enthusiastic obsession, so ask anything. Here’s an example explanation of how magic works in the Warhammer world.

The Winds of Magic blow in the Eight Winds from the ruined Gates of Heaven on the poles. They’re in a sort of a messy jumble. To sculpt that messy jumble into spells via raw willpower is what’s known as Dark Magic, and prolonged use of it for any substantial feats of magic is corrosive to any living creature’s sanity.

The Elves, and the Slann who taught them, were created by the Old Ones to be naturally magical. As such, Elves aren’t unduly psychologically affected by the magic they wield, though Dark Magic’s corruption will eventually claim them as well. The Slann taught the High Elves safe methods of working magic - extracting one of the eight Winds from the jumble, and purifying it, then using these single purified Winds of Magic to work magic of a certain character (since each of the Winds has a character of its own), and then weaving the purified strands back together into something called High Magic, that could be employed to do things one Wind couldn’t alone.

The Empire’s eight Colleges of Magic practice the High Elven system, but with one difference: Humans are disallowed by law from studying more than a single Wind and its associated Lore.

Why? Humans happen to be pretty good at magic, but they weren’t made by the Old Ones to be mages. The end result is that Humans are much more psychologically affected by the magic they wield than Elves are. For example, human students of the Lore of Beasts grow increasingly antisocial and misanthropic, and essentially all end up leaving civilization behind to live in the untamed wilds where all the other Humans they see are random hunters and their fellow Beast shamans. The Golden Order who study the Lore of Metal grow obsessed with studying and analyzing everything, and their Order works as much on studying things like alchemy, metallurgy, forging, herbalism and the like as sorcery and runesmithing proper. Every one of the eight Winds has a personality of its own, which is imparted on Human masters over their years of study, leaving every master an eccentric.

Now let’s imagine what would happen to someone who heavily used both Ghur, the Brown Wind of Beasts, and Chamon, the Yellow Wind of Metal. A studiously analytical, pragmatic scientist who’s uneasy in the trappings of civilization and kinda wants to vibe with the spirits of wild animals? It’s easy to see how one would end up with contradictory influences and end up insane, which is rather against the whole point of the Colleges and the system studied there.

Priests are shielded from the changes wrought by magic by their patron god. Their divine powers are still spells that shape the Winds to achieve the priest’s and god’s ends, but the Winds are shaped by the priest’s faith, the god’s dedication to their servant, and the religious rituals and prayers shaping the pair’s expectations of what should happen. Elven Mages, Imperial Magisters and the Liche Priests of ancient Nehekhara shape the Winds into desired forms through technique and ritual, practicioners of Dark Magic (Chaos Sorcerers, Skaven wizards, Necromancers, random untrained practicioners of magic) largely with sheer will, though structure and ritual play a large part in Necromantic magic, the Nehekharan system is in part religious, and the Chaos Sorcerers’ works are in part worship of their Daemon Gods.

The Mages and Priests of the High Elves and the Nehekharan Mortuary Cult are a good bit like Chaos Sorcerers, Grey Seers in that they work the more wizardly sort of magic and are technicians, not pure worshippers, but the Nehekharans are literal priests of their gods, and the High Elves’ Mages and Priests are both, well, mages and priests.

The Mages study magic as a technical endeavour but the attitude towards the study is partly religious and spiritual, and the Priests just lean more into that. Among the Imperial Orders, the High Elves’ attitude would most closely be matched by the Light Order but the vocations of priest and wizard are much more distinct in the Empire than they are in Ulthuan even though both study the same system of magic.

Kerillian’s mutations are not caused by her practice of magic - Wood Elves don’t use the same system as the High Elves and Imperial Magisters, but do have their own safety measures. Kerillian’s physical changes are due to her joining a religious cult that takes part of the new inductee with it and replaces it with something… different.

Sienna’s tattoos, likewise, are attuned to her magic, but are not caused by it. The way they writhe and how her hair sets itself on fire when she works magic are caused by the influence of the Red Wind on its Human practicioners.

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I’ll bite to hopefully get this thread moving

What’s your take on the War of Vengeance? Who carries the heavier guilt for the war that exhausted both High Elves and Dwarfs?

Does the Cult of Pleasure still exist in Ulthuan?

How did the Chaos Dwarfs come across Hashut?

Do you think that Grimgor might have been part of the OG Black Orcs who broke free from Chaos Dwarf servitude?

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What’s your take on the War of Vengeance? Who carries the heavier guilt for the war that exhausted both High Elves and Dwarfs?

Elves obviously, since the whole thing is a Malekith plot. Between the High Elves and Dwarfs, it was mostly just both sides being centuries old and acting like four year olds. The start of the whole thing is maybe a bit on the High Elves’ feet in that according to some sources they didn’t really inform the Dwarfs that an entire kingdom had just defected and become cartoon villains out to enslave everyone. Had the Dwarfs known that, or the High Elves bothered to think of it and not thrown a temper tantrum at the Dwarfs’ initial understandably incensed inquiry, the war might’ve been averted.

Does the Cult of Pleasure still exist in Ulthuan?

Yes, the authorities are constantly fighting against underground cults, much as in the Empire. Many of those simply worship less savoury Elven deities like Atharti, but many ostensibly Athartite cults are actually fronts for Chaos worship and Dark Elven spy operations. The Dark Elves deliberately fuel the cults to weaken Ulthuan.

How did the Chaos Dwarfs come across Hashut?

If memory serves, after the earthquakes that ruined the old Dwarf empire (Thanks, Mazdamundi!) a hold of Dwarfs were isolated, basically going to die and other fun stuff, when they found some old shrine whose god took them on. The rest is history.

Do you think that Grimgor might have been part of the OG Black Orcs who broke free from Chaos Dwarf servitude?

No clue, sorry. Probably not, insofar as Grimgor is alive today and the OG Black Orcs happened centuries ago.

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Updated the magic explanation.

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We don’t know much of his past, but the scar on his eye was from when he was a CDwarf’s slave, so probably yes.

And he was then seen having crossed the desert with a large group of Black Orcs who later became the Immortulz

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No one but me wants to add questions to the thread? Oh, well.

Can you give a run down of the elf pantheon and the difference of religion between Ashuryani, Druchii and Asrai?

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Elves obviously, since the whole thing is a Malekith plot. Between the High Elves and Dwarfs, it was mostly just both sides being centuries old and acting like four year olds. The start of the whole thing is maybe a bit on the High Elves’ feet in that according to some sources they didn’t really inform the Dwarfs that an entire kingdom had just defected and become cartoon villains out to enslave everyone. Had the Dwarfs known that, or the High Elves bothered to think of it and not thrown a temper tantrum at the Dwarfs’ initial understandably incensed inquiry, the war might’ve been averted.

I should have been more specific since I didn’t intend to include Dark Elf schemes in it. The questions should be who of the High Elves and Dwarfs do you think carries the heavier guilt for the war?

For them acting like hormone drunk teenagers I would think that it also comes down to a kind of inexperience with these matters. Neither empire had any experience from previously on how to deal with a diplomatic crisis and both were at the height of their power. It seems to me that inexperience along with a sense of power makes for a bad combination in dealing with a sensitive issue like this. And lets remember their history. Both empires were victorious against the forces of Chaos and the Elves who opposed Malekith successfully defeated him and drove him and his followers into exile. So both could reasonably feel secure, in their minds, in that they could win through force of arms this time as well with no other serious threat on the horizon which might cause them to be cautious with an escalation. Yes, I know Malekith was still around but to my understanding the High Elves didn’t know how well the Dark Elves were doing in their new home or that they would be able to muster the strength to resume the war.

While I always will favor Dawi over Elgi I wouldn’t be so fast to blame the Elves for not airing their dirty laundry to outsiders. Its not like the Dwarfs have been very forthright about the Chaos Dwarfs with other people, for example, to my knowledge. And I personally have a certain understanding for matters of pride.

Yes, the authorities are constantly fighting against underground cults, much as in the Empire. Many of those simply worship less savoury Elven deities like Atharti, but many ostensibly Athartite cults are actually fronts for Chaos worship and Dark Elven spy operations. The Dark Elves deliberately fuel the cults to weaken Ulthuan.

Interesting. I knew the Swordmasters were involved in this but I didnt’ know about the Druchii involvement.

Is there any lore if these cultists are unknowing pawns of the Dark Elves or knowing Malekith loyalists and traitors to Ulthuan?

If memory serves, after the earthquakes that ruined the old Dwarf empire (Thanks, Mazdamundi!) a hold of Dwarfs were isolated, basically going to die and other fun stuff, when they found some old shrine whose god took them on. The rest is history.

Thank you. I would be fun to know what race/people/nation/whatever first built this shrine to Hashut and who were his original followers. But I suppose GW hasn’t elaborated on this but want to keep it mysterious.

Ok. Well, it was worth a shot since its a pet theory of mine that he’s part of the OG Black Orcs and that’s the reason he’s so insanely big and strong.

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I like the sound of this since it ties in with the pet theory I mentioned in a post above that Grimgore is really old and this explains why he’s so big and strong. As well as the scar you mentioned.

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The religions of the Elfs are kinda like how the Greek pantheon was treated in the Hellenique time, where it is the same pantheon, but they aren’t necessarily focusing on the same gods as much (Like Athen being full on Athena, while Sparta was closer to Artemis).

The gods are separated into 2 category (Again, similar to Greek myth with Chthonic vs Ouranic), Cadai are the “good” gods, and Cytharai the “less good” gods.

High Elfs will focus their faiths mostly on the Cadai and avoid the Cytharai (mostly giving them offerings to calm them)

Dark Elfs will focus their faiths mostly on the Cytharai cause they’re more likely to acts (and usually are more set around cursing)

Wood Elfs mostly do more equal parts around the Cadai and the Cytharai.

Some examples are:

Cadai:

  • Hoeth (wisdom)
  • Isha (life)
  • Kurnous (wilderness)

Cytharai:

  • Khaine (Violence)
  • Drakira (vengeance)
  • Anath Raema (Hunt)
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Interesting. I knew the Swordmasters were involved in this but I didnt’ know about the Druchii involvement.

Is there any lore if these cultists are unknowing pawns of the Dark Elves or knowing Malekith loyalists and traitors to Ulthuan?

Both. Some cults are just dark cults, some are spy operation fronts, some are cults set up by Naggarothi spy operations, you name a mix, they do it.

Can you give a run down of the elf pantheon and the difference of religion between Asuryani, Druchii and Asrai?

A big thing about the Elven gods is that they’re a lot less directly involved in people’s lives than the gods of Men, the Chaos Gods or, say, the Great Maw are, due to Asuryan’s ancient decree that they not mess with mortal affairs. Thus they live in the Annullii mountains in Ulthuan, and the only elf to ever reach the place came back blind and mad, and tossed himself from a high tower.

Elven Priests for example are essentially wizards who draw inspiration from their gods for their craft, but they are not granted power over the Winds the way Human Priests work magic, or knowledge of spellcraft by divine inspiration the way Chaos Sorcerers and Beastman Shamans are often given their talents. The Elven mode of worship is very much emulating the gods in their virtues.

Which is the general case, but that isn’t to say there aren’t clear divine miracles at work in some aspects of Elven societies.

The Everqueen of the High Elves is a prophet of Isha and clearly divinely blessed by her, to such a degree that if the realm is healthy, she can banish demons with a touch and dissolve the magic holding together the Undead. At the Shrine of Asuryan in Ulthuan’s Inner Sea, an eternal flame burns through which every Phoenix King to be must walk to be judged by the Elves’ creator god. It’s that flame that turned Aenarion into the superhero he was, and the same flame that burned Malekith. At the Shrine, there are walls of shifting runes that tell to every member of the Phoenix Guard their deaths.

In Athel Loren, two of the Elven deities have avatars: Kurnous, Lord of the Hunt embodied in Orion, the King of the Woods who’s reborn every summer, Isha, the mother of the Elven race embodied in Ariel, the Queen of the Woods.

As for the differences in religion, Cactus put a lot of it well: The High Elves worship the Cadai and Mathlann, the god of the sea, and play grudging respect to the Cytharai.

The Dark Elves worship the Cytharai, especially Khaine, the Bloody-Handed God of Murder and War, Atharti, the goddess of pleasure and seduction, though as on Ulthuan many of her cults are actually Slaaneshi ones in disguise, and Hekarti, the mistress of (dark) magic. The Cult of Slaanesh is a real, large force behind the scenes in Naggaroth, and is run by Morathi, the mother of the Witch King and one of the first sorcerers among the Elves.

The Wood Elves chiefly worship Isha and Kurnous, though they pay homage to the whole pantheon in somewhat more evenhanded way than their city-dwelling cousins.

High Elven Mages chiefly serve Isha, her daughter Lileath, the goddess of dreams and prophecy, and Hoeth, the god of wisdom after whom the White Tower is named. Dark Elven Sorcerers court Hekarti, sometimes Slaanesh, and delude themselves that they’re the masters of daemons rather than their pawns.

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In light of the weekly event, a short history of the birth of Morrslieb, the Chaos Moon:

Far back in the Warhammer World’s past, the Old Ones came to the world from some other dimension. They were ancient, godlike aliens who came to the world and set up dimensional gates at the poles. They brought with them the first generation of the Slann Mage-Priests, and subsequently spawned four other generations of Slann within the Warhammer World. The Old Ones and Slann moved the planet closer to the Sun to warm it up, shaped continents and created many of the lesser races or uplifed them into what they are now. One of the Old Ones’ first creations were the Lizardmen. At some point, for reasons no one knows, the Polar Gates collapsed, leaving behind tears in the fabric of reality, direct, uncontrolled portals into the Realm of Chaos. The Old Ones disappeared at the same time, leaving their Slann and Lizardman servants and other creations to fend for themselves while Chaos was unleashed on the world.

During the collapse of the Northern Gate, Morrslieb - a giant moon-sized chunk of Warpstone - emerged from the Northern Gate and set on an orbit around the planet.