Game is less accessible to new players

Warhammer: Vermintide 2 Gameplay Feedback
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I played this game with a few of my friends who sort of enjoyed it but claimed it was a bit too hard (once we got in veteran) when I explained that the loot drops only get better with difficulty and that you can only obtain red from an empower chest in champion or any chests in legendary he literally quit the game saying they force the difficulty down your throat for the BiS gear and said no thanks.

I quit playing too just to take a break and Lerner other players figure out the new expansion for me so I can read/video watch information at a later date. But how can we keep the game from forcing difficulty for gear down players throats?

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What exactly did your friend want? That we can farm for BiS by spamming Beginner level maps? Have him name me several games that had that model that had an adult target audience.

Back to the point, I must say I’ve never agreed with V2’s level up model.
In V1, it was ALL PLAYER SKILL. There never was a BiS for gear loadouts, it’s play preference. Augmented gear in V1 helped you survive longer and make up for human mistakes or mistimings but none of the traits helped you kill better. Granted there were some OP traits like Haste that was a complete oversight on the devs, but barring that, gameplay success were mostly based on player skill.

V2 wants to add pseudo RPG elements, which doesn’t lead to customization, it forces META play. Which in this kind of game I dislike. So yea I kind of agree with your friend rage quitting but at the same time, I also feel he just wasn’t good enough and can’t be bothered to be better at something that he initially is bad at.

Nothing on him for his attitude, he should have done more research before purchasing.

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This game requires teamplay, and even more after patch 2 and WoM, really,
all must stay toeghet and close adn watc each other’s back , there is 99% probablity, if one goes down, all others will go down too and fast,
it’s a coop game, keep that in mind

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There is no difference between red items and orange items in power level. You can get 300 power level items from Veteran. If you are anywhere close to max power level, min maxing for veteran and champion isn’t worth it anyway as you are significantly overgeared for both. If you arent max power level (now 650 after 2.0) then you shouldnt be worried about what difficulty you are playing on or what loot you are getting until you are, as you will just end up replacing it anyways.

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No offence to your friend but he clearly just missed the point of the game entirely. Sure red level weapons make the stat rolling a simpler affair however there is nothing stopping you farming veteran for completely competitive 300 level gear.

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The thing is: reds don’t really matter other than for the glowy bits & rerolling ease.

Diablo has the same style, reds are primals, Max rolled items, only attainable after achieving a level of difficulty. I went without reds my first 200 hrs but I enjoyed the game. You can make lvl 300 oranges that are good enough, beyond that it’s just to scratch that completionist itch.

I do understand the frustration with difficulty curve to start though. I’ve been trying to get a buddy to play for a year & he simply doesn’t like how unforgiving it can be.

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IKR

All these issues are felt throughout the community. We ALL feel them in some way. Either through difficulty, or struggle with silly new mechanics, or with the silence of our favorite developers. We ALL know this is goin on.

You took the time to post it tho - some dont do that - Im glad you did

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Well complaints about gear aside vermintide is not an easy game and never has been…

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They hardly “force difficulty down your throat”. Go from Legend/Cataclysm(you don’t need to beat it, just see how enemies fight) to Recruit. You’ll see how toned down and simple it is. The enemies are significantly less aggressive, don’t hit hard, and are much easier to kill. The game won’t be a walk in the park for a new player(or maybe it will be), but it’s certainly not brutal.

On the left is a recruit monk and on the right is a cataclysm monk.

If he thinks this game is a “Best in Slot” game, then he has no concept of how to play the game(I mean, he is new so that makes sense) or how it functions. The idea of Recruit to Cataclysm and Power Levels/Lvls is to ease new players into the game and help them learn slowly. There is an incredibly high skill ceiling and it could overwhelm new players if they were given everything at once. Imagine if everyone started with max power and could just jump right into Legend or whatever difficulty games right from the start. It’s just not a good idea.

Also, no one has to play on a harder difficulty. Just play on whatever is comfortable or enjoyable.

Gear was actually weaker or stronger based on color in VT1. E.G. White/Green would have less power and traits than a Blue or Orange version. Ultimately, player skill is more important than anything in either game.

You say none of the traits helped a player kill better and then immediately admit there are traits that do. Traits like Berserking, Backstabbery, and Killing Blow are also more examples of traits that helped a player kill better.

This seems to be the problem with “the friend that quit”.

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Don’t wanna be that guy, but if your friends are a quitting because they don’t want to put in the time, then that’s simply their fault and nobody else’s. There may be bugs, there may be concerns on difficulty, but if they don’t want to put in the work to even learn champion*, that’s on them.

I think the biggest woe was even pressuring them outside their comfort zone. If their the people that just wanna do rookie and have a good time doing it? More power to em. Don’t get me wrong, it sucks when your friends quit out, of the 9 of us, there’s only 2 of us still on about playing in the wake of 2.0. But that’s on us.

It’s not the games fault. It’s that we don’t mesh with the game anymore. And that’s all you can pretty much say about that.

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MY friends havent quit as a result of the huge mess 2.0 is, but they sure reacted negatively to these changes and are definitely playing MUCH less than they used to. I FEEL it, and it dosent feel good, but Im not gonna quit playing

I believe you are missing the point here @Rumeht. If this patch wasnt such a jolt to the core gameplay experience, I would agree totally. We have to, as others have said before, ‘step back, relax, and reserve judgement’. These changes and NOT a positive thing, a player simply dosent have as much FUN as they used to pre 2.0.

The POINT to this ISNT that they should ‘reserve judgement’ though… its that they are reacting to a MAJOR overhaul of the way the game FEELS to them. Steam reviews, god… I read a bunch of them earlier and it only reinforces my feeling that I am NOT in the MINORITY here, and when people are ‘quitting’ the game, saying ‘its on them’ seems so wrong. In fact, I believe its a direct result of THIS patch!

I remember when changes occurred, and some I sure didnt like, but it didnt CHANGE the game. The game FELT the same. Legend was still legend, they just tweaked a few things and a was just adjusting to them accordingly, because I was willing to ‘put in the time’ as you stated. So when someone ISNT willing to put in the time with respect to such an overwhelmingly NEGATIVE change to the game, I think its disingenuous to say that its ‘their fault’ for not willing to… adjust. The game has gotten a HUGE change that makes it feel like a different game, and people are reacting to it. Fatshark are experiencing the repercussions of their actions (or LACK of with respect to beta feedback) right now, and I am SURE they are talking about it

I have a different reasons as to why I believe the game is less fun, but it seems, its less fun for a MAJORITY of players across the board. Some even quit playing all together. So saying its their fault, for not ‘putting in the time’ seems unfair, and totally unrealistic to me. I appreciate your input, and we all have an opintion, but Fatshark decided this was the direction to go, and people are reacting to it, simple as that

So to sum it all up. Yes, its the games fault - it simply dosent meet with the vast majority of consumers requirements anymore

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You’re speaking from the perspective of a returning player. A new player is less impacted by these changes because a new player likely doesn’t know there are changes to begin with. Secondly you’re preaching to the choir. I am one of the 7/9 of my previous example. The game is more frustrating than fun and the effective methods of playing are more boring and stagnant than engaging so I stopped.

This was a post directed at new players. Some people like these new systems even if they’re seemingly not the majority, so a new player should have the potential to grow into liking the new systems as well. In reference to sweeping overhauls of existing systems? Well I’ve got no reason to state my opinions twice. This ain’t the thread for that.

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I think you’re missing the point, that’s clearly not what this thread is about. The problems brought up in the OP are things that have been in the game always, in fact at launch reds were even worse in terms of droprate.

OP’s friend would’ve quit whether this was pre-WoM or now. Whether or not people like WoM, the drops only getting better with difficulty has always been the way the game works.

To the OP: while the loot system and traits/properties are a mess in this game, I don’t games should award you the BiS gear if you aren’t willing to earn it. As @mw2544 and @hgjw pointed out, there’s no difference between reds and oranges other than making rerolling quicker/easier. There’s also no sense of reward if you beat one veteran run and the game instantly throws reds and cosmetics at you.

And you really don’t need to worry about properties until you’re on the higher difficulties, you know, where you get reds anyway.

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I stand corrected! I think you are right, if I understand your meaning - with relation to the threads topic being related only to ‘things that have been in the game always’

Tho what I expressed is valid, and is a response to what @Rumeht responded, regardless as to whether it was OT to the what you perceive this thread to be about

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I think the progression, loot and item system is a big weakness in Vermintide.
The game would in my opinion be much better if the system where like the weave system. Building your weapons and character gives a feeling of progression and you can see it as well. Sadly I think that it might be to much work for just a patch to change the main game system so I don’t think we will see any major changes. But I could be wrong, I know very little about making games.

I remember that I was very frustrated by the progression of the game when it came out. First when I reached max lvl and got orange gear with properties I wanted did I start to enjoy the game more.

I don’t like all the random elements in the game and I personally would like to see the loot box system go away too. Instead you would get skins, frames and cosmetics from completing challenges. But my guess is that it will stay as it is and hopefully it will be a better system in Vermintide 3. It they make one.

Got a bit of topic sorry.

//cheers

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Let me revise or clarify my statement. None of the traits were reliable in helping the player kill better. Heroic Killing Blow had a 3% proc chance on charged attacks, something only useful against Rogers and if it procced, it was a nice surprise. Not something I’d wanna rely on therefore less overall useful.

Regular Killing blow was nice but you lose out on a defensive trait like Regrowth or Perfect Balance. I didn’t run it on any of my weapons. There were never any traits that straight up boosted crit chance or power levels like in V2. There were no “break points” to min max for.

Haste is the only oversight trait that was a bit broken, but as long as it is there, I had no reason not to run it. I challenged myself with a vanilla build for fun only.

My point stands that in V1, it was more skill based over gear base. Gear should strictly be player preference based on play style. Not so in V2 and especially with the current build, precise synergy builds are required for best performance, which defeats the point of even having multiple talents as options when one is clearly better than the other. None of the talents are equivalent to each other within the same tier.

I’d be more than happy to get rid of Leveling up and talents. As it stands right now, the current state of the game causes bad attitudes with other players. Anyone less than 35 or not using a specific build is automatically kicked and not even given the time of day.

I played 500 hrs of Legend at level 30 and suddenly I find myself being kicked from games for not being 35? I hate the community consensus that the devs have created due to their incompetence.

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Sorry to hear you’re dealing with people kicking you for stuff like that. I’ve come across those people in my games and I tell them to kick a can down the road. Usually there will be at least me and one other person so we can deny vote kicks, but I know that not everyone has that available to them. Even before Winds of Magic I had seen many instances of

this kind of thing. This has actually been brought up numerous times on the forums lately though. But mind you, this was 2-3(3-4 if you count pre-launch week) weeks after launch. That tells me that all those people being toxic over people being “underleveled” now weren’t saying a peep before because they were underleveled and playing Legend/Cataclysm. Hypocrisy knows no bounds.

I do think Cataclysm has brought out some more elitists though. I’ve had people criticize my gear or talent choices since even before WoM and after WoM. I’ve seen it happen to other people. I don’t understand why people even bother playing if they’re not going to have fun and just be sourpusses the whole time. Whenever I see this stuff though, I try and defend other players who just want to try things or play what they want. I tell them they shouldn’t leave or change and should just “do them”. That usually makes the toxic guy angry and leave. Imagine that. Trying to be nice and having fun makes someone angry.

I kind of get what you mean with the talents now. Hagbane, for example, has a talent(serrated shots) that is designed not to work with it. So using hagbane only gives you two talent choices for that tier. I don’t totally understand why they did that. I enjoy the new options and some of the things you can do, but there are alterations that could still be made. While you don’t have talents in V1, you could have 3 traits and they were better in V1. They’re pretty different games for a lot of reasons, but I think I get what you mean. Certain weapons in V2 are a lot harder to clutch with than others(as an example). V1 you could clutch with more.

I don’t think the game is supposedly balanced around Cataclysm, but some weapons like rapier feel bad in it because it takes so long to kill things. Or the volley crossbow on Saltz.

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I basically came to these forums to give feedback on how bad the game is after buying it from steam sale recently. Met with the same middle finger from the devs on trying to post my own thread as they gave us with the game.
DGAF about BiS gear, how about more than 13 levels, shallow, stab, dodge, stagger loop combat, toxic fanboy “git gud” voice chat, potion swiping, horrid loot, big buy the dlc or f off extravaganza that this game is at heart.
Not to mention all mods have to be vetted by the devs before they just halt progression all together as they black list you from loot drops and disable saving mechanics.
Oh and negative feedback on these mechanics is disallowed on official forums do to Nazi moderation, and totalitarian control of a co-op games mechanics.
Is it less accessible for new players? IDK. I will say it is definitely not good when mods block negative feedback, boast mod compatibility then make them entirely unusable, and from what I read generally don’t listen to their own player base about simple game mechanics.

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Then don’t play on the modded realm. There is a reason there are two separate realms. There are sanctioned mods that can be used on official realm. No one is forcing you to play on the modded realm.

This tells anyone who frequents these forums that you’re lying through your teeth. The devs have taken mounds of feedback and that includes plenty of negative feedback. Being constructive and civil is important otherwise you’ll be flagged by people. Calling Fatshark “Nazi moderation and totalitarian control” is a gross exaggeration and blatant lie. I’ve been critical of Fatshark my fair share of times like many others and they don’t lock threads or posts unless they become toxic or non-productive.

Activity on the forums says otherwise.

Plenty of sanctioned mods to use on official realm. You can use the modded realm for more adventurous mods. They’re not “entirely unusable”. That’s just a flat lie.

Some things they’re insistent on, but they absolutely have listened in a number of places and implemented changes because of what feedback is provided. Things like stagger and such is going to be controversial. There is no real helping that. But in all the time I’ve played this game, there have been many changes made done solely because of good feedback from players. You just can’t come to a forum, start spewing fire and hate, and expect people to give you the time of day and deal with abuse.

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1.) If it the game gave you more than 3 drops a run, I wouldn’t care about mods. Every hack-n-slash game ever has been about the loot. 9999 times out of 10,000 games, if you are going to be running the same 13 levels on repeat odds are loot is raining from the skies, and if there is a crafting system, this loot is usually trash quality simply for crafting mats.

2.) Making Modded realm, then saying “no new weapon types”“No new mission types”“No completely asinine but highly entertaining mods like replacing all enemy models in game with donald trump and altering sound files to say something crazy”“no loot modification”“no xp modification”“no custom cosmetics”… etc. Is like saying “we were to lazy too add a counter or visible hp number to health bars so someone else can do it for free and that is the only “mod” you are allowed to use.”

3.) 13 levels of repetitive spam mouse click, dodge, stagger, stab… Rinse repeat 3 times for every character in game on every difficulty just to access cosmetics… Oh and we are now going to reset your progress every 3 months because we need to artificially extend the life of our game by padding it with as much tedium as possible. Oh and if you give us another 60 bucks you can do the same thing on 4 more stories and if you get bored with that too bad, because all you’re ever going to get is UI mods.

If I wanted to slog through levels for minimal loot to have my progress reset and the inability to use anything but UI mods I’d go play a free game like path of exiles.
This is not a MMO. It is a hack-n-slash PVE CO-OP game,like borderlands series, which have save game editors, mods to change different aspects of the game. It is totalitarian to place a malware based anti-cheat into a basically single player game with bots that burrows into your operating system at the kernel level, it is totalitarian to disallow mods IN A GAME WITH NO PVP. Disabling save system when a mod is used is pretty invasive to gaming experience if you ask me, especially in a game so tedious and padded it gets boring after 3 hours.
GAmes are supposed to be fun, not work. So what if adding a UZI would ruin your immersion, it’s a “modded realm” meaning pink dildos could rain from the sky, what you kill 10,00 donald trumps, and your character screams like turetts guy when he/she gets hit. Oh and when you get bored with that, you could change it into something else. That’s what mods are for.