So that is your argument that you won’t repeat - ‘bad idea’?
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No that’s called facts you want to dismiss for some reason.
Facts can be arguments. If they are indeed facts that is.
I’m trying to understand where you got the notion that fixing bugs won’t help developing what is essentially a piece of software, and you’re shutting the discussion down on your end. Which tells me that either you don’t have much experience developing software and you don’t want to admit that your point of view is based purely on a consumer’s perspective, or you’re just shutting me out of the discussion which is even less mature.
Well then I’ll clear you up. I never ever said that fixing bugs won’t help. I said fixing bugs ALONE (notice this word it’s rather important) without adding content won’t help.
We have the whole first year of the game that proves exactly this.
Now I’m also a computer engineer. I just work into it and your usual software is not the same as a game. Even in general software development you usually must add some features at the same time and it’s delusionnal to think you’ll retain your playerbase during the time you refactor your whole code. (Proven by year 1 numbers on vermintide 2)
If by helping you mean creating short spikes in online player presence, then I agree - adding content does help developing your product. Look at the numbers - even major DLC releases fail to grow steady online following.
I’d say, that if you have to refactor your whole code, you have bigger issues than either bugs or lack of content.
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It is exactly why they did that. The old code couldn’t support new features (others than maps) as, at the time, game was made for Vermintide veterans which were way more niche. They didn’t anticipate their success.
Here where we do agree. Retaining player ALSO means fixing bugs.
Here where we do not agree, even if the game was bug free, game wouldn’t retain much more players after this dlc because weaves did fail a bit as a ‘replayable end game’ mode and it lacked impactful rewards. Hardest weaves also made bugs way more frustrating and visible that they are ‘usually’ since every hit through block would be instant death instead of your usual hit.
A better craft system would be interesting to retain, a deed 2.0 would also be more impactful. As will probably be lohner’s shop (if done well).
Yes I can see now where the problem in our communication lies. I never meant “stop making new content ever”. Even that old thread was created to say that maybe there is a point when FS really needs to mobilize, focus and unify their development resource pool in one “sprint” effort of ironing out and building a better code base for all of their future projects before proceeding with any new endeavours instead of further subdividing the team. Certainly it should pay off seeing how they have these grand 10-year plans. Which is almost an eternity in gamedev years.
Of course it is hard to manage that big of a team, but if you shatter the developers into a myriad of one-man teams, nothing will get done too. While a couple of guys bust their arses and get burnt out trying to track down and fix at least some of the billion bugs, another couple bust theirs trying to balance weapons etc. Maybe it is more productive that the management should busts their arses off for a change - in organizing and rearranging the teams into larger subdivisions to attain at least some critical brain mass in fewer critical fields.
Everyone who is not a developer could surely contribute by play-testing their own freakin’ creation. If anything, it would certainly raise their company acumen 
It might not be the answer some of the current players approve of, but let’s face it - the current online presence is a joke already anyway. Maybe invest in long-term now that they have failed the short-term?
Yes, I can personally vouch that this would make me spend a lot of fresh play hours in game playing as other characters besides my very few mains.
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Then we’re clear =p
For the rest, we don’t really know how they work currently.
We only know that “seasons” are a way for them to increase patch frequency, and content frequency, so there should be some movement in how the project is developped there.
We’ll see if they succeed or not in the long term (short term wise, it’s probably a bit fast to adapt)
Interesting to note on dev activity :
- There’s a new “mod” beta branch related which has opened to modders so they can adapt their mods to the new changes (font library was changed).
- “stable_release” repository was updated since last patch each week very frequently (daily, or mostly daily)
And there’s a patch right now (less than a minute ago =p)
But bugs need to get fixed first. Otherwise it’s pointless and as @Yzneftamz said it will only lead to transient spike in player numbers, since everyone will see what a mess the game is very quickly. Especially the older players. And this continuous bugged state and inability to listen to community is producing more and more negativity and sour after taste. Which as mentioned before, is not something you want, if you are playing the long term game as they claim to be playing.
Nobody would go around wondering what is wrong with a car that has 3 flat tires. Tweaking the engine, painting the car different color or switching to high octane fuel or whatever is not going to make the car go any better.
I would take “all bugs fixed & proper balance done” everytime… in exchange for less content.
Do you want to get crafting fixed, simple deed crafting system, fixed bugs and balanced weapons /classes … OR … the terribly designed weaves, even worse balance, even more bugs, new faction that people hate because it’s also bugged and unbalanced and few weapons ?
I want the solid base first ! And I doubt anyone in their right mind would pick the latter option, especially not now, when everyone can see how it played out.
We sure don’t the game is mess since it launched. It’s not like this is a first time we are going thru this rodeo. It’s just now it’s bigger mess then ever.
Fixing bugs and creating decent balance would stop the bleeding or at least limit it.
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He never said “first” he said it must be done AS WELL.
And I do agree.
Your question is only rethorical =p
Fixing bugs will take months. Months without new content means less players. Again, you think I oppose fixing bugs and adding content, which I don’t.
LOL, the moment they added cool frames locked behind a “puzzle game” grind associated with a “Leader Board” I saw all my friends with no responsibilities play 160 hours a week for 2 weeks. Wrap it up, and I was like, “Whoa”. I had to travel for work for a week, and now I can’t get anyone to play with me.
Why? Because it wasn’t fun enough content for them to want to play through it again. Why? Because they had to grind through all the higher level weaves and the wins were just a random roll of the dice that they played well enough to move on and they know it, and don’t want to do it again.
So, when cool stuff gets locked behind a wall of content that isn’t fun enough to replay EVEN ONCE. I’m out. Done. I play once a week with some close friends at this point. I had all the red illusions before WoM came out, so I played the hell out of the game.
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Yes – I’m not holding my breath on Versus being a success. In fact, I’m expecting it to fail. I’m not interested in it and won’t play it anyway.
I’d much rather they focus on what made people play Vermintide 1, and then 2. Adventure and hordes, that’s where it’s at. High hopes for the new Drach reiterations but I doubt that’s enough to make me boot up the game again. There are so many great games around I’d rather play than rage at bugs.
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This is a great, and important, thread and I’m happy to see it here.
People bring up an interesting point that I need to reply to. The fact that games, especially multiplayer games, go out of commission and, well … die as they get replaced, is a fact of life. Fact of the industry really, and Vermintide 2 is not an exception.
However. This game is not even two years old, and if it really did sell as many as two million copies, then I have trouble understanding why it regularly dips under three thousand concurrent players. While these numbers aren’t exactly bad, it’s bad relative to what it could be. A lot of players, including me, consider ourselves fan of the series and due to the recent development of the game has outright decided to put it aside to play different titles.
The game is in a bad state. And
Is, no offense, completely wrong in my eyes. There are two-three thousand players a day and gradually declining. It spiked this weekend (IIRC) because of the sale, but we’re still losing people. The game is in an extremely messy state; there are so many features and additions that are dead, redundant or just bad.
Contrary to VT1, this one didn’t grip me nearly as much, and I still consider VT2 an incomplete game. In my mind, I can’t even boot it up, because I don’t view it as a finished product. The promise of customization and new cosmetics was a lie – or, it’s been postponed until Lohner’s, and I’m very curious/excited about that. The crafting system is a total joke. Levelling is repetetive and completely unnecessary as well as a flawed system.
From the base up the game appears to almost need a total conversion. I honestly don’t even know where to begin sorting this mess up, I suppose bug fixing would be the way to go because that’s where the mess truly shines – these certainly made me quit all the faster.
I’m holding my breath for this game but maybe I shouldn’t. I’ve put 2 on the shelf, and I’m just waiting for fixes and actual content so I can finally feel like what I do matters. I really, really want this game to be good enough and hopefully the wait will be worth it.
It is honest to god actually unbelievable to me that Versus was announced so soon after 2.0 dropped which almost completely killed the wider community of this game.
The game lacks some serious direction and it shows. There are far too many projects being worked on at once. People want more maps and weapons, not reinventing the wheel. Now that combat was altered almost completely, it has to be rebuilt again through months and months of time.
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We already spoke about this in this exact same post (but also others), but welcome to forums.
Maps and weapons alone, won’t retain players without new ways to play. A kind of end game mode that is replayable AND rewarding (which weaves unfortunately fails at both currently).
Maps and weapons were ALREADY what was done in V1, and it didn’t retain (a lot of) players.
Thanks. My two comments were like 8 hours waiting approval which is why they’re FAR behind the discussion.
Pure hyperbole. Just look at the Steam charts for the game. The population took a slight dip but is otherwise the same.
There was a dip after spring of this year (I think the game was on sale) and things settled out to what is typical. Another spike after Winds of Magic and then a more significant dip because of those displeased with the DLC. That and you have some falling off of those who are looking for more content or further updates to the game.
A fluctuation of 500-1000 players doesn’t mean that the game is dead.
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Nononono.
Let’s take one huge problem, the temp HP… how long does it take ? I will bet you right now, that if I got my hands on all the knobs that can be turned around temp HP, I can tweak it to some “fine” scenario over weekend max. That is not work for months.
And the more complex stuff like reworking deeds… that is also not months. That would not be months for single person.
The insane running attacks, the tracking going thru dodge, the insane range on some attacks and so on… those things need tweaks, which again are not going to take months, not even weeks… if they actually focus on it and have some test group, that can test it right a way and do fast iterations.
What is taking months is something like the… Versus, that is taking months of dev time, that should be spent on this stuff we are talking about.
The wins are not random, people who did the weaves can do them again, but the rest is kinda how it went yea. I really really don’t want to play any of the weaves again.
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Grind is the problem not the solution. Levelling is the worst part of most action games, especially when it doesn’t unlock anything. In D3 the worst part of every season is levelling your character, thankfully that’s a relatively short process. But as you do it your character changes and plays differently.
Nothing changes in Vermintide 2 when you level except numbers. The gameplay is the same at all levels, you have melee, ranged, and career skill always.
So them adding 5 levels IN NO WAY added any depth to the characters. We got no new skills or abilities and the playstyles did not change in any way with 5 more levels. All it did was increase the Grind.
Item acquisition and crafting can hardly be called a system, it’s just gambling. The crafting system is literally a slot machine, put your Dust in and hope to get what you want, but most likely roll something useless like Power vs Berserkers. Drops are Pure RNG and Crafting is Pure RNG, I would hardly call that a system.
The game is INCREDIBLY unfriendly to new players, heck you don’t even know how much HP your character has! What it needs more than anything is accessibility.
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And… here we are, with proof that FS definitely need some kind of Beta testing area for patches.
Attempting to fix various things has resulted in lots of other things breaking.
STILL problems joining as one character and arriving as another.
Bugs sub-forum is getting spammed with reports.
Gunners and Flamers now really loud, GutterRunners still quiet and hopping around like smack-addled leprechaun.
Changing the font to make is worse somehow… while breaking mods that use the font, with no need to change the font at all.
Changing some sounds, but failing to address the bigger problem of spawn positions of enemies (spawning too close)
The beta branch is needed to prevent any of this even reaching the live game… unless FS admit the live game is actually one big beta branch for consoles.
Patches are supposed to improve things surely?!!
Someone say some prayers, light some incense, prostrate yourself before the Omnissiah. The Tech Priests have failed again and the machine spirit is furious.
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