Yeah, I misclicked, sorry about that!
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they used to do this. it lead to people harassing the everloving hell out of the CMs and trolling the forums in general. the players are generally a lot less mature and more self-important than they think they are.
I’m aware (but idk if I agree with that generalization of players here). 
But there were more CMs then, so yeah, I’d wager a guess there’s a bottleneck between having too few hands on the CM team and Skulls around the corner.
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Ogryn buffs confirmed.
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As i understands it, devs are the construction workers, not the architect. Architects are the producers or project managers. Directors are the foremen. Is this accurate? If so, wouldn’t it be better to speak to PM/Producers?
Not really accurate, “devs” encompasses everything in the production line as its commonly used. A project manager is one of the devs, as is the lead combat designer, etc. The word you’re thinking of is “programmer” (or artist, writer, etc, all on the same level)
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I hope there are bulging muscles too. Seriously the Jungle Fighter and Acid Dog cosmetics would be 100% better if they made you have Arnold arms.
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Hehe, this year will be a micro-patch in the autumn at best. Then New Year, yes, yes, I remember how they threw out a frankly raw game then (and I was hoping and waiting for those fixes, promises, etc. ha…) and just didn’t get in touch for a month, and then they just released a patch… oops, pardon me, coldfix.
Anyway, expect something decent only next year. Now it will be summer, next holidays, sea and blah-blah-blah, you know.
P.S. Or am I wrong? o_O.
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I’m always left wondering after reading such comment on how high your breaking point is for you lot.
Like your outlook for the game is so low and bad, I wouldn’t stay if mine was like that (Why I dropped TWW3 and OW). I understand that FS is slow but lord do you lot feel like you’re playing drama which doesn’t help the situation, either be honest or get help.
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a lot of them left the game, they’re just trolling by complaining about the problems in the game they no longer play as if they’ll come back to a game they don’t like with enough gimmies.
It’s the same thing for a lot of people: the combat gameplay is just really really good and there is little in terms of alternative.
Sadly the gameplay is stuck in a trash game with a horrible company. I pray for the day another dev comes along with a similar style of 1st person combat.
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Vt2 has been getting more Dev blogs than dt which is a dangerous sign I fear, dt definitely could’ve already
been abandoned at this point
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Why do big companies like yours put so much emphasis on the CM role. This is my opinion but I don’t believe that charts, statistics, data points, surveys, etc; give developers a good feel of the game’s state or direction. Here’s my perspective: developers themselves should actively engage with fans rather than letting a third party do so; participating in the discussions, debating game design, sharing opinions, getting involved in the community; is very important as it gives you a better feel of the game rather than getting fed data by a third party.
Game design isn’t really a hard science. It’s more of an art form that one works through by feel - how that is attained is through the community itself - your best players, best critics, best bug reporters, best fans, are usually those who have spent hundreds of hours on the game.
One of my favorite studios that I follow with zealous fervor, Iron Tower Studios, has a very interesting stance in regards to community engagement:
This is their blurb for Early Access but that statement is their ethos that defines how they handle feedback in general.
Of course they make it very clear what the core design is and that they won’t accommodate someone whose feedback goes in the opposite direction of that, see:
Of course I know this type of community interaction isn’t for everyone. Mainly of which is that you need to have a “thick skin” when reading negative feedback or criticism - i.e don’t take it so personal if someone dunks on a feature you spent months working on; but here’s the thing you need to be able to take feedback. Gaming has become a big thing over the years. Working alone in a basement without interacting with your fanbase is no longer feasible these days. Gamers like being heard. Gamers like it when developers acknowledge them. Gamers like when their feedback is actually shaping development.
Right now some of the best games that are dominating the market are from developers who take community input very seriously; for instance the social phenomena that is Baldur’s Gate 3 and Helldivers 2, two games where the CEO is engaging with fans on social media.
Another developer that I follow religiously who shares a similar stance is The Astronauts. They’re currently working on a unique first person shooter called Witchfire - basically Vermintide meets Destiny meets Escape from Tarkov. One of the lead designers does these interesting blogs where they go into depth on their tenants for game design, how they react to feedback, and how that feedback shapes development. Here’s a snippet to their reaction to Iron Pineapple criticizing their game:
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Bold of you to assume Fatshark is “big” by company standards. 200 is tiny. My current place of employment is more like 10k 
At least at Fatshark feedback is a mix of qualitative (from the forum), and quantitative (from the backend data, surveys, etc). Quickpaw puts out some of the most detailed, distilled, comprehensive reports I’ve seen with stats, quotes, sources, etc. It’s not all just numbers.
It’s not a hard science no, but CM is important for a number of reasons:
- Provides a face for the company for consumers to direct questions to and interact with.
- Allows devs and production to focus on that rather than spending all that time collecting feedback and parsing it themselves.
- Provides a buffer in times of crisis.
- Ideally has training in crisis comms (can’t speak to anyone else, but I used to work in a PR firm that handled large fatal crises like train accidents, etc) so handles those.
- Controls the flow of feedback and information through reports, etc.
- Handles influencers/content creators/press builds/etc.
- Keeps track of competitor metrics and compares them to the game’s metrics.
- Other assorted tasks like playtest design (at least I used to do this), social media management (Catfish and Quickpaw have filled in there), event (in game and out of game) design and trade show management that may straddle different roles.
Ideally, how CM is supposed to work is CM takes the feedback, relays it, production acts on it, CM relays the info back out. Problem is a lot of studios get stuck on the “acting on it” part and then there’s nothing to relay back out. 
A good CM is really invaluable, just a lot of studios don’t know how to use one (or respect one). A lot of CMs get stuck where players are mad (the game’s wrong!) at them AND devs are mad at them (our design vision!), and that’s a painful place to be (as seen on many former CM Twitter accounts; all CMs usually go through a lot of the same pains).
Part of why I’ve mentioned before I believe CM work should straddle the line between PR and user research.
Iron Tower Studios
They have less than 25 employees; so yeah, makes sense they don’t need one yet. 200 vs 25 is an apples to orange comparison. The more your studio grows, the more your need for a CM grows. It’s very easy as a small studio to run stuff this way because everyone is in tune. The larger your studio, the larger your project, and the most stuff can get lost and the more that needs to be managed, hence; a CM.
Some CMs are super active, some prefer a more hands off approach and do things behind the scenes. Really depends on the CM. It really is more than sitting on a forum all day.
Different strokes for different studios, but when push comes to shove and sh*t hits the fan, it’s much safer for the CMs to take the hits than the developers.
That said, I’m not sure if any company really emphasizes CM work as the most important role. It is important, but they all should work together as a well-oiled machine. CM is generally the most player facing (by design), so you might see it as the most important because that’s where the news is coming from.
Edit: Am I really not allowed to type the full word “sh*t” in a place I used to moderate? TRAGIC.
Edit 2: Also, people act way differently when a dev appears, which stifles honest feedback. CMs are more likely to get unfiltered feedback, either worded politely or not. I’ve seen this in action. 
If you look at general games user research standards, it’s generally recommended that testers don’t have access to devs as dev answers can skew feedback unintentionally. Testers and devs don’t like hearing that rule, but it’s true; for better or worse.
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Very interesting. This is what I like to read. Thank you very much for this. Nothing pickles my brain than a developer sharing their thought process. I find this type of stuff rewarding to read.
A couple of things:
No offense but most of the indie studios that I follow have barely that number. In my perspective you guys are huge compared to one man indie projects that I follow. I guess 200 being tiny is more less a statement on how complicated game development has gotten over the years.
That makes a lot of sense. Someone who is good at handling stressful situations would be an invaluable asset. God knows Fatshark has been in some explosive controversies.
I mean it sounds like your just being used as cannon fodder to take the heat while the developers hide in bunkers because of an unpopular feature - i.e see Hedge getting annihilated because of “Design Intent”, mind I think Hedge was only relaying what the developers told him.
It’s about 3 actually with supporting contractors. I wasn’t joking when I said your studio’s 200 size is huge compared to the studios I follow.
Yeah I remember a Japanese developer from a big studio talking about this very thing - I can’t provide a citation to the quote, as I forgot, but basically they said the same thing.
Now I want to touch on something that you said which is interesting to me, which is studios getting larger. Personally, I think a studio becoming too large, is, in part, by fault of management. In my opinion studios that unnecessarily expand are creating a big problem later down the line. One of which is eating enormous overhead costs. Development pipelines becoming overtly complicated to manage. As well as the fact of potential bankruptcy due to increase in costs.
One of my favorite developers from the Iron Tower once said:
“In this Industry One Can Succeed and Fail At the Same Time” -
Now the context is different in the quote but the underlying message for me is that if a game sells big and you expand too quickly you run into an issue where all of a sudden overhead costs balloons out of control and you end up having a nightmare in both logistics and costs.
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Most are already past the breaking point. Over it. Jus choose to stay vocal.
I remember seeing that game, thought it looked interesting, looked it up on steam, couldn’t find it, and than immediately became dissapointed.
I just gained a lot more sympathy for CMs lol.
It’s good. It really is. It plays like a more ranged focused version of Vermintide. It’s just, well, the developers took the Epic monies, lol.
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I know it’s a hard spot for devs, as that money can be used to make a better game that is their vision etc, but I’ll wait for when/if it eventually gets added to steam to try it out.
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