I’m trying to understand the argument.
Pushing should not cost peril bc its not fair to be in a situation where you can’t push a wave.
Doesn’t the change make the sword’s push a normal weapon push or is the sword’s push still better than other weapons?
It was such a small amount of peril that it was almost nonexistent though, not once did I ever feel in danger with it, nor the others that play psyker with me. To each their own though, I respect your opinion. It’s not so much that difficulty matters to me, it’s more that’s where balancing should be hitting if at all. You can clear everything no matter how bad a class ends up, just from the sheer amount of skill that’s allowed in the Tide series which is what I love so much. The issue just comes from taking out the fluidity or taking away the skill ceiling, which imo the better you feel you can get, the more accomplishment and need to feel improvement hence more hours.
For V2, Cataclysm ended up much easier than early legend, which admittedly was because the director was spawning far too much craziness, but that was still the most fun imo. Cataclysm ended up in a weird place where it was for the most part too easy for a lot of the players with hundreds or thousands of hours. Which is where the modding scene came into play with like Cata 3 and such, Darktide doesn’t have this which means we are going to need another avenue for difficulty if the game stays in this state. V2 also did solve that with Chaos Wastes which ended up my favorite game mode by far.
Anyway this has gone off topic with the weapon, I still feel strongly it should cost peril and it’s alright for us to have different opinions. Even if it stays taking stamina I can only accept it, I’ll still enjoy Psyker, I just wanted to make myself heard and vent about the change albeit in an upset manner.
The sword has a stronger push than other weapons, that’s why it costed peril instead of stamina. It was actually pretty op if you used it correctly. 4 peril was literally nothing I’m kind of unsure how anyone was put in dangerous situations from that, but either way it sucks to feel it in this state. I thought it would have gotten a peril cost added onto it from how strong it was, but instead they took the route and completely gutted it for the sake of others wanting it put in stamina. Imo it was very unique taking peril instead of stamina and I highly preferred it that way. Psykers in the lore are literally taking risks just using those powers, so it’s weird to me the amount of negativity from players having to take risks.
Just to clarify, the issue wasn’t the amount of peril it cost, it was that it cost any peril at all. It would have been annoying even if it cost 1 peril. Because it meant that if you were on 100% peril, you could not push without exploding. I personally found this to be quite annoying and unfun because it meant I had to, for a few seconds, just block until my passive kicked in and I could push again, which felt like a very passive and un-proactive way of playing.
I just don’t understand that sentiment since you also have an ultimate ability that takes away half your peril. Stamina has the same problem especially with only 3 stamina bars. I’m unsure if you ever played Sienna in V2, but if you had played unchained she has a mechanic that is somewhat of the same thing. Taking damage gives overcharge but causes less of the damage to effect you. In this one you have a peril meter that you are supposed to manage, if you don’t manage it you are supposed to die just like Sienna overcharge. If you don’t know how to manage peril I believe that’s an issue in itself. If you have 0 stamina you also can’t push nor block so how is that any more or less fun than it using peril? In this way you could block and let it vent a tiny bit to push or even just use ultimate to blast them back while also venting overcharge. Not to mention this is a team game, you have allies meant to cover you.
I understand we won’t see eye to eye with this and it doesn’t seem like either of us can see the other side so I’ll just agree to disagree.
I agree here. I didnt play closed beta but I much preferred being able to use my peril resource for force sword push. It was such a small amount, and now the stam amount is significant. Oh well. Careful what you wish for guys.
Yeah, even if they up the stamina a lot on the weapon to make up for it, for those of us who enjoy the psyker peril mechanic it’ll always feel lackluster. Only thing we can do is make a little bit of noise and see if that attracts anything, if not just gotta deal with the hand we are dealt. Just sucks that to stop that people would have had to come on the forums and constantly fight back on those wanting the peril taken away. When we already had it, it feels worse for us because we enjoyed it. Now they get the demerit of it being heavily nerfed and we all lose collectively together.
One thing that is important to remember is that when we first received Force Sword post-Peril change it was alongside an utterly broken Peril economy and a slew of nerfs. This, combined with issues with Peril management’s accessibility (Force Staff post-cast Peril, no MiM access until 16+ hours into the game, Peril “instapop” glitch, weapon switch stickyness, etc) made the weapon genuinely unusable.
The first impression almost every Psyker had after having a very usable Force Sword in the Closed Beta was a nightmare abomination that threatened to instantly paint the insides of your skull across the room if you tried to shove more than half a dozen times with it. And if they wanted to try to re-evaluate the weapon after the Quell Rate hotfix they’d have to be lucky enough to find one worth getting in the shop, which is… Well, I haven’t seen a single one that wasn’t grey-green in the past several days.
At this point, I’d just be happy with a Peril-sword and a Stamina-sword, it’s frustrating to see thoughtless half-measures make nobody happy.
This is why I dislike it. There classes should have differences, but there’s also basic fundamental things that should be consistent amongst all four classes, like movement, sprinting, blocking and yes, shoving.
Have to agree with you Mofias. If you play so close to the edge that you can’t spare the peril to shove, then that’s fine, but that’s your playstyle, and it doesn’t necessarily pair well with all weapons, including in this case the force sword.
Certain weapons absolutely should cleave to a specific playstyle, and certain weapons absolutely should not be optimal for all styles.
Expecting a weapon to be changed to fit with your preferred playstyle is foolish, because it will inevitably lead to a dull and monotonous single meta. If you don’t want to spend peril to shove, choose another weapon that doesn’t cost peril and is closer to your preferred style. The style of psyker is more risk/reward than any other class, and managing that balancing act is what the class is all about.
Removing the risk because you find it inconvenient misses the point of the class. It was also obvious that changing the cost to stamina would require nerfing of the force sword’s functionality, not being able to see that is short sighted in the extreme and just demonstrates how little those complaining about the cost thought about the consequences.
Having the option to choose between both would be quite nice actually. Don’t think that should be too hard for them to implement either and it would make both crowds satisfied I think. Also that is true, the venting and peril economy was god awful before that hotfix. In many ways though that hotfix may have pushed peril management a little too far in the very easy to manage territory. Which is why I didn’t understand the problem people had with managing peril for pushes in general. There are also very strong traits for fixing those issues too which is why I think people need to wait to see end builds before deciding what should or should not be changed. Not to say there shouldn’t be changes for the entry level enjoyment, but that should be separate from the overall gameplay imo.
Just my 2 cents.
Yeah, it would be nice if they could just open 2 branches for gameplay. Allow us who want to be more risky with playstyles to have more rewarding effects. Then those who want a more balanced approach have a less rewarding, but more generalized kit. That would make people new to Psyker maybe a little more tolerable swapping to a risky playstyle in the future. Would separate the lore from gameplay a bit, but might make more people happy.
Only problem with that of course is implementing it correctly and that solution may be the hardest out of any to achieve without making one way too superior over the other. I.E making the risk vs reward not great enough of a reward or too rewarding that you need to do it to feel comparable to others.
Preferably though I would appreciate just keeping it harder to play but more rewarding executing playstyles. Like other Warhammer games did for psyker cough Martyr cough. Until full release with all content and full builds though we won’t know what meta will take shape for now.
What if push stayed how it is currently and the push attack is a massive shove that costs peril?
Both crowds get the push they want.
I don’t think you’re being very fair. I’ve commented quite a lot about the state of the psyker, fell in love with the class whilst i played the technical and closed beta tests, and i don’t like to comment on things i know little about.
I won’t say how many hours of psyker i’ve played because frankly its a bit embarrassing yet it is substantial.
From what i gather at the moment the range nerf is negligible, due in part to having a force staff/ranged weapon, the issue was in high intensity engagements, which means enemies are in your face hitting you not standing 3m away, the peril cost to push made it very difficult to defend yourself in these situations, especially on higher difficulties and at high peril. Since the update, i’ve only been playing psyker because i can feel difference it has made and i think it is a good change. The follow-up push costs peril which i am happy to have since it is quite strong.
You need to be careful, because the vocal minority you are talking about, might just be people such as yourself, we don’t know how many of the thousands of psyker mains think the change was good or bad. I have to say, from what i’ve read most people wanted the peril cost gone completely, and FS didn’t do this, so clearly they don’t just do whatever we say.
Also, this is a forum, where FS want feedback, some people do complain and make a big fuss, but the majority are simply offering feedback like FS requested and offering suggestions for improvement, since we’ve played the game and certain classes for dozens of hours at this point and understand the limitations of certain classes on higher tier diffs. I’m not commenting because i’m salty or fancy a moan, i actually want the game to be in the best state it can be for launch. The force sword was amazing during the CBT, and took a ridiculously heavy nerf for seemingly no reason so wanting it reverted imo is a good thing to want, many people on here are coming from a different perspective i suppose.
Everyone’s opinion is valid regardless, but the amount of people that are posting on here is most definitely not the amount of players playing. Look up at steam charts if you need that info. Everyone I’ve talked to outside of a few on here have preferred dealing with peril since that “is” what a psyker is supposed to do. There were other weapon choices where you didn’t have to do that already. Like others stated though they could have just added the exact same weapon and had that get the nerf with stamina. Even on T5 it did not feel bad having that peril on the weapon, I don’t know how 4 peril was so much for everyone, but it’s not hard to manage, it really isn’t. Especially with how easy they made it to manage peril now. Before the hotfix I’ll admit it could be a bit rough, but that hotfix made everything to do with peril ridiculously easy to manage, almost to the point where it’s not even a demerit.
The follow up still costing peril is nice as it adds to the flair of the weapon still, however, it’s still too little imo. Most of the time you don’t need that extra shove. The weapon is still strong ofc, but it’s the fact that we already had it in that state and just from a few players complaining it got changed. Many of us were happy using it with peril on it and while we were all busy enjoying the game some people jumped on the forums screaming about peril being too hard to manage. I just think it’s not very valid to completely modify the weapon with launch being only a week away and they still have a plethora of issues to fix. They could have waited for more input, even when you look through the forums there are still very few posts of complainers and yet it still went through since those were the only posts.
There are a large majority of players just playing and enjoying the game waiting to put input from final builds/meta builds, you can’t just adjust before getting feedback all around. Hearing the playerbase is fine, but if it’s only from a select few sources I don’t think that’s alright personally, especially when it’s a change that effects everyone including those who enjoyed it the way it was.
I’m not trying to sound like a douche, but if they were going to have it with a peril mechanic like that, they should have kept it since it came so far already. There were better options that could have made both sides happy and they chose imo the worst choice there. Sienna ended up with a lot of the same issues and a lot of us just sucked it up and played anyway since we enjoy the game. I really enjoy this game and ofc I want to see it succeed even more than V2. I just strongly feel that this was a wrong change to make and I understand that there will be people happy about the change, it doesn’t help the fact that there were people happy before the change however.
I appreciate what you’re saying and trying to tell me, i understand, but there’s only going to be a minority of people who will go out of their way and spend the hours listing things on here they think can be improved. I tend not to think of people on here as complainers (there are a few i’ll admit, but not most), i care about the game so isn’t it natural for me to voice my concern? I think it is, and remember, you are doing the same, which is a good thing!
You’ll never get the majority opinion on forums, steam stats/charts aren’t really a good metric to use for discussions like this. We’re the minority who’s cares enough to come on here, and if you’re trying to make valid, reasonable, and fair points it’s going to take a bit of effort that the majority of players simply either dont want to do or dont have the time. i’ve seen some outlandish suggestions and feedback and most people tend to disagree with them, most of what i’ve read here is quite reasonable, it is up to FS if they agree or disagree, since we’re the only ones who are actively telling them of our experiences in Darktide. I would say most players don’t even know this forum exists.
I know the great potential the force sword has, especially on the higher tier diffs, wanting that back isn’t changing something moreso than simply wanting something to be reverted back to what it used to be.
For me personally, i make heavy use of my staves and BB, when i pull out the force sword its going to be because im surrounded and have no other option, i’ll most likely be at high peril too. I have a playstyle that i’m used to, the change you liked meant my playstyle was no longer viable enough on the higher tier diffs. The initial push not costing peril makes playing the psyker so much more enjoyable and survivable.
Peril management is much better now, yet i think if you are truly utilising everything the psyker has to offer you’re going to be at either mid or critical peril levels for most engagements. This could happen frequently, and will happen during the special condition endless horde , you’re going to be flanked due to the game having multiple spawn points around the players. which is more intense the higher the diff you play at.
If you’ve played enough, you’ll notice that the stagger from the push, and even from the ult occasionally doesn’t register with every enemy in the AoE/cone. So what would end up happening is you’d have to spam the push to clear some space to deal with the horde, and this is what would typically cause the issues revolving around high intensity engagements and peril. This is my experience anyways could be different for you and i can respect that.
Thanks for the well thought out posts and information. I understand where you’re coming from and it’s just a matter of difference in playstyles. I get that the change was helpful to some, but it was still a demerit to others. I just wish they had chosen to add another force sword rather than take away what others enjoyed. I came from a ton of V2 (about 1k hours early legend and since cata release only cata) and on here I have just about 80 hrs of Psyker gameplay from T3-T5. I do admit I’m more used to melee so I only use BB for certain situations, but I use the staves a ton. Using the staves feels really rewarding just like they could on Sienna (unsure why so many think Psyker is weak and needs help). My build allows for me to stay at max charges without using BB which allows me to focus more on melee/close range staff. The change just effected what we could do in melee by a lot, especially when it comes to resurrecting teammates. I like the supporty playstyle and that’s how I like to use BB. We have absurdly high damage through this weapon especially with first target trait near max or maxed.
I still feel that there should be room for both playstyles and I happen to just love being pushed to the brink with peril. I get that some are opposed to that, it just makes sense to me coming from Sienna and Psyker lore. There was nothing I was more excited about in this game than that weapon with the peril mechanic. It may be small to others, but for me it was a lot of the enjoyment I got out of the game. I thought it was actually on the op side of things which is why it surprised me some thought it was too hard to use. Not trying to sound elitist or anything with that, just it really surprised me.
The stagger from the initial push I haven’t had any issues with, the only one that is awkward is the second push after (the push attack). That to me feels very clunky and I prefer not to use it. With enough play using just the regular push and dodges the melee is very fluid and so far I haven’t had any issues with it up to T5 (yeah even with the stamina change). I still enjoy the weapon and still love Psyker regardless, but no matter what this will always be something I’ll look back at and be frustrated with. There’s no reason they couldn’t have kept it the same and added something for the people that disliked it, we do have more weapons in our arsenal but they are definitely not the same as using this blade. That’s why I understand why those that hated the peril on it didn’t want to swap to a chain weapon or something (not to mention chainsword is a higher level unlock).
Also you are correct, usually you are at mid or critical levels, but you don’t need many pushes to keep things back when used to dodging and pushing (typically one or 2). This is also meant to be a team game just like V2, sure there will be solo runs and carry runs, but at the base design things should be balanced around a team. The change to this made melee a ton harder with the small amount of stamina you have and that’s even if you really wanted to grab +extra stamina. The old peril use allowed for us to sprint into combat, fight, dodge, and still have push (which sure was borderline op) but it was a lot of fun.
Long story short, I do see where you are coming from and I understand that the change helped you a lot. I’m just vexed that those of us who actually had what we enjoyed had it taken away from us to appease those who posted on the forums first. Which is why I don’t think they should be changing things so close to release and allow for more information to be gathered. Early changes usually hurt the game overall and it’ll take awhile after release to get them tuned more in line with each other anyway. Right now it feels like they are hurting the people who are struggling to play by throwing these patches out making them feel like it’s wasted manpower and it’s also hurting those who can play and are just getting used to what they are enjoying. Doing balance changes based off a couple days of gameplay just feels really awful. Zealot had a bunch of talents that outright didn’t work and they nerfed them down before fixing them for example.
I agree with you here, it seems like Psyker is being nerfed at every single update. I’m all in for the high risk / high reward mechanic.
By the way, is the trait allowing to block range attack with the force sword still a thing? I didn’t run into it while levelling my psyker.
I kind of agree, but then adding more stamina to the weapon is the real fix here.
that and MORE damage on general trash mobs
