Fatshark for the love of Sigmar assemble some kind of community balance council because you have no clue wtf your doing

That’s cute of you to say… except that hedge already posted saying the recent change was a mistake and there’s going to be hotfix following everyone’s feedback. Also, most of the devs only play at vet/champ soooooo… /golfclap for being wrong again.

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Being wrong about what? The fact that the game is improving but, as is the nature of coding a complex set of systems, there will be bumps/warts along the way that FS is dedicated to fixing…because they have no incentives to NOT make the game the best they can (by employing all manner of tactics, including listening to the community).

As for devs not playing on Legend: https://clips.twitch.tv/InexpensiveScaryLampFUNgineer I watched that whole stream and Morja pulled some serious moves.

Frankly, the way you talk about/to the team that has worked hard to create a game we’ve all played for dozens/hundreds of hours is just insulting and uninformed. The devs care, they play the game, they want it to be the best. It won’t magically happen, it’ll take more work and time.

Look, I get it, you put me in your book of grudges. That’s fine, man. I’ll continue to post my opinions here, you can continue to rage.

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That’s not at all what you were doing lol… you implied they know better than the community immediately after the community brought attention to an error that slipped through the cracks. You went on to insinuate most hardcore players don’t know what they’re talking about.

One dev playing on Legend (ie. the dev we knew plays on Legend) is irrelevant to the fact that most don’t. Kinda falls squarely within the bounds of the statement its aiming to refute.

Frankly, you posting apologist bs in a feeback forum is asinine. 99% of the feedback isn’t remotely incensed and when it is, it’s typically because it’s been months since we were lied to by the advertising department and the devs have barely communicated with us. What’s more insulting? Constructive criticism and feedback or someone trying to disregard that feedback? How about investing tons of time into dealing with the game’s issues, then more time communicating those issues on the forum, then virtually never receiving any acknowledgement from the devs, even in beta?

I scarcely talk to the team and usually, when I do, it’s polite. The few times it hasn’t, it has been a direct result of the aforementioned, “I paid retail price for what was advertised as a full-release Collector’s Edition and instead of a finished, polished game I’m now an unpaid playtester.”

I don’t have grudges, I have logic. Your derisive attempts to dismiss any/all negative feedback are both illogical and unhelpful. Being a condescending douche about it a la “the devs know better” when they haven’t yet communicated or demonstrated it and each patch is a new fresh hell doesn’t help either. Yes, there are lots of good things about the game but suggesting to a group of hardcore gamers they just don’t know what they’re talking about is idiotic.

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This thing about most devs not playing Legend is just a weird forum legend. Multiple devs play Legend, based on what J_sat has said. He could name four off the top of his head in his current stream.

Cool, they should try talking to the community at all. I’m always appreciative when hedge posts but it’s exceedingly rare.

They should get together 13 people to be on this council… the council of 13!

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When you limit your pool of balance players to high tier, then you commit the same mistake many other games have (Evolve and Gigantic recently). An object can be balanced for high level play while also wrecking every average player and pub. Goodbye playerbase.

In my examples of Evolve and Gigantic, Wraith and Tripp were perfectly balanced for high level play. Streamers had no issue. However, Wraith and Tripp absolutely slaughtered the middle and low level players – you know, the bulk of the customer base. Both games suffered massive declines in their playerbases before the devs took action to reign those characters in. When the game goes from 80k and 30k players down to 5k and 3k players, respectively, it’s too late for the patch to be effective at stopping the bleeding.

If Fatshark wants to actually balance their game, they’re going to need to identify a mixture of skillsets to include some who stopped playing due to frustrations.

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I agree but since this is exclusively PVE I don’t think that applies here as much. It’s impossible for any high level player to not utterly destroy lower difficulties no matter what they do.

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I think he was talking about mid skilled players being destroyed by high level Stormvermins and Chaos warriors, thus the Wraith analogy from Evolve, i.e opponents and mechanics on legend difficulty destroying the casual players AKA current core and majority of Vermintide 2.

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Oh, yeah that’s fair I guess.

Exactly. Balancing around a range of skill levels is another wrinkle that FS is well-aware of and which will be vital to the continued growth of the VT2 community. And it’s no easy task.

My previous point, which I still stand by, is that FS has thought through all of this stuff more than even a 3k hour vet likely has. Yes, from a different vantage point, which is why they should and do listen to community feedback.

The game will ultimately be balanced. It’ll take time. After VT1, I trust FS to do right by the game and the community (e.g. releasing free content for years, having a DLC system that favored players over money, continually working to improve combat and balance, etc.). It’s critical to their success (they don’t exactly have 10 other titles they can float on) and there’s no reason they wouldn’t.

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Them repeating things in VT2 they already knew was BS because they changed in VT doesn’t really get my hopes up, though. There are so many things anyone and their uncle is complaining about that at least seem incredibly easy to fix that it is mind-boggling why nobody has done so.

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At the risk of being called a “condescending douche,” I’ll just say that we have no idea when/how VT2 was branched off from VT or what FS’s plans are for addressing various issues. Maybe they’re looking for new, better solutions (that might need some road testing to perfect). Great example, I think, would be the quest system that they’re going to crank out in a few weeks. It’s obviously solving the same issue as the bounty board, but it looks like it’ll be in a different way. It’d be boring for FS and VT1 vets alike if they just copied the bounty board wholesale. Personally, I’d like to see them experiment, even if that means some rocky road ahead.

All in all though, I feel it’s a pretty safe bet to assume that they want VT2 to be successful for a long time to come…why would they not want to improve the game? Why would they have been capable of improving VT1 but be incapable of improving VT2? Just does not compute.

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Simply put: because it is an issue RIGHT NOW. Once folks are gone, there’s no guarantee they will come back. For experementing, you do either alot of beta testing or open a beta branch. A finished product sold to paying customers is not supposed to be your testing ground for your maybe good ideas.

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Not sure I follow. It’s an issue now, so they aren’t able to fix it? Stuff takes time, coding is hard…if FS could snap their fingers and make all the fixes they obviously would have done it already.

And deadlines are necessary for projects (even if you don’t have a publisher or client banging down your door). Without deadlines, things don’t get done at all. I don’t know where the quote is from, but I think it rings true that “a piece of software isn’t done until you quit working on it.” If FS delivers everything they promised (mods, dedicated servers, keep customization, etc.) 6 months after I’ve started enjoying the game on a daily basis I’ll personally consider that a big win. I know everyone doesn’t feel that way, and I get the frustration. I don’t get the stream of hate and accusations like “they’re lying liars!”

I’ll just put this here for people that haven’t seen it yet as well

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Balance changes are small variables that take up no space. I don’t see why they couldn’t set a different behaviors for weapons/traits/skills and talents specifically for Legend and leave the lower tiers…easier. It’s been done for Guild Wars 2 PvP and PvE, same thing goes for several other multiplayer competitive games where high tier ranked/pro play has different behaviors,interactions and numbers to accommodate for player skill and knowledge.

Lot of work? It’s not a matter of coding anything,it’s just a matter of having the slightest idea on how to balance and then changing the numbers. Community suggestions could greatly help with such tweaks,so they wouldn’t have to balance from scratch with no information.

For now the formula for legend is: more damage,more health,more enemies - same weapons,same traits, with max PL not taken into consideration at all.

Longevity = end game content.
Legend = end game content.
end game content = max stats
max stats = appropriate balancing based on them

it’s either balancing to 600PL or 0 PL. Balancing to 0 PL is meaningless,because even the least skilled players will stomp through recruit as soon as they catch up on some basic things, like which specials are disablers,which enemies hit harder and how the levels and events on said levels progress.

Besides, people who stay on recruit/vet sure as hell won’t bother with the game for a long time.

Why should people looking for a FAIR challenge where they can use the entire broad arsenal at their disposal be punished with nonsensical “balancing” decisions based on the opinions and skill of the people least invested in the game?

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I honestly don’t get the analogy here. Making weapons viable on the hardest difficulty is supposed to f*ck over the middle man in…what way?
Because the weapon may be harder to use or different to use? Yeah, might turn some people off, but if every weapon is at least usable they might think “hey let’s try this instead…” and like another playstyle.

I really don’t see it quite as drastically, mainly because it’s PvE. And how opponents and mechanics on LEGEND are supposed to destroy casual players on CHAMPION or VETERAN, is just beyond me.

I’m not saying “give all balancing matter into player’s hands”, not at all. But weapon balancing might be ONE point where FS may want to listen to players who have tested these weapons in different situations on different characters and different careers.
And imo, if a weapon is viable on Legend, it’ll be more than playable for the average joe if he puts some effort into it.

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I don’t bandwaggon on calling them names or incompetent and whatnot, coding may be hard, but that’s their job. I can’t go to my clients either and tell them “oh, knowing the law is hard, I am sorry I can not deliver what I promised right now, I will get there in maybe half a year.” If that is my business practice and work ethics, I will be out of business more sooner than later and rightfully so. I am perfectly willing to cut them some slack for being a rather small team (though deadlines usually come from a publisher) and everything. But I am certainly not giving them any clemency for absolutely amateur mistakes that have nothing, I repeat NOTHING to do with coding being hard. Things like the live version initially being the “wrong” build, the latest patch again being the result of some internal communication problems and their obvious inability to get certain bugs out of the game after trying and trying and trying and always saying “oh, now it should be gone”. I see FS more as a studio of artists. The artstyle of the game is absolutely brilliant and it lucks stunning, it is spot on Warhammer. But there seem to be people that know their game’s code better than they do (coughcoughIamLupocoughcough) that have proven they can do better than they could and, if you’d were to trust certain sources, already have mods ready to go.

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I hear ya. Again, can only speak for myself, but I’m glad the game is out now in the state it is. It’s fun, it’s expansive, and me and my buds have sunk hundreds of hours into it.

For the record, mods are just about ready to go live, the workshop is accessible (if you jump thru some hoops), and as of today there are a dozen or so mods available and working. Robin (dev) has been working tireslessly hand-in-hand with VT1 modders. It’s just another example of the unseen work that FS is busting ass on to get out huge features to us as soon as possible.

And, if it wasn’t clear that FS are the “right kind of dev,” they’re also bringing official mod support and tools to VT1. I think that says everything.

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