Fan wishes - Pros and Cons

Hi guys!
First of all: Warhammer is an amazing and great (okay it is not just great, it is awesome!!!) game.
I already played it for many, many hours! I loved the first Vermintide and I have to say that the second Game makes even more fun!

Well, after that statement is clear, let’s begin with:

Pros and Cons:

Pros:

  • It is just PvE - one of the biggest pros, because PvP would ruin this game in the long run!
  • Beautiful graphics
  • An amazing combat system and well balanced (there are still a few balancing wishes from me, but who has not, I listed the biggest at the end of this post)
  • You can play this game on every difficulty in team or (if you have managed to gather enough skill and level with every character) with your bots
  • The sound is amazing
  • The feeling of the impacts in melee- and in ranged combat are fantastic
  • The design of each and every stage is phenomenal
  • There are many different types of enemies and bosses with own strenghts and weaknesses
  • Many things to collect and many skins and frames to farm
  • A total of 15 different classes, epic! Especially the slayer looks amazing!!!
  • A well balanced talent system!
  • The new ravaged arts look amazing, they are very, very beautiful
  • It is WARHAMMER FANTASY! The implementation as coop-computer-game rocks as hard as one of these golden age metal bands! Fantastic work guys, really!!!

Cons:

  • Since the update (patch 1.5) there are often game crashes and it happens often to me- One time was extraordinary mean, because our full team got kicked in “the pit” right before reaching the blue bubble (end of the stage) in the new game mode :cry:
  • There is a little bit too less motivation in the endgame
  • There are many skins (heads, armors, weapons) in the game but they look all the same or very similiar, especially the armors
  • The “Back to Ubersreik” DLC was for sure a nice meant DLC but to be honest, wrapping up old things, or let the players run through levels they already know is not a good idea. We want something new, and this kind of DLC’s are just convey that you guys have no more good ideas. And I know that this is not true! If there is comming up a new DLC, then it has to have something new and to be very honest: 2 maps, like in bögenhafen is too less content, especially long maps are not as funny in the long runs as they are in the beginning (exploring phase)
  • There are no motivatable loot items in the long run. Examples: If you are running the same maps again and again and again with a class, you just get a skin (head) which isn’t looking as good as some other random loot skin. So after I farmed one of those heads I really didn’t felt like I will ever farm again another of those skins, because they are simply not worth the effort you put in.

Alright, after reading through my personal list of pro’s and con’s here are some ideas of mine to upgrade the game in a propper way. You can use all of my ideas or none, I really do not care, I just want to help you making this game a little bit more exciting as it already is. :slight_smile:

Fan Wishes:

Okay, here we go. I hope you guys are showing us complete new maps with the next dlc. We wanna see at least, lets see… hmmmmm 6 new maps and maybe you show us 2 epic new end bosses, like a vampire in a castle and a chaos dwarf with magical weapons in a fresh ruined dwarf stronghold or something like that. That would be awesome.

It would be awesome if you could do some very long quests, something were you have to fulfill many tasks (play a level with all weapons of a class, defeat 100 gutter runners with one special weapon, kill all bosses with all melee weapons, etc… you guys have a perfect glue of things like that) to get special weapons with special traits. And there really have to be many, so we can get them with all with, lets say 100 h+ effort. And this weapons really need to rock hard! They need a shinier, much more cool looking, individual, special skin.
Plus, if we have to work hours to get one of this epic items, it should prevent the player with an extra special trait, like: running speed +5%, atk speed +5%; hero power +20, etc…
Something like that would boost the motivation of all players like hell and it would be for the long run, because this special weapons would be extremely hard to get and it would take some time. But if you finally get one, you can show the other players that you are one of a mighty player + it is granting you a little bonus (not game changing, just a something like i meantioned before: running speed +5%, atk speed +5%; hero power +20, etc… )

One example:
You need to invest ~ 20 game hours to get get with the elve the:
poisonous gleve of the white lion general

  • 2 properties
  • 1 common trait
  • 1 fix special trait which is fixed (for example: +poison dmg on normal hit, not much damage, just a tiny, little bit which is stacking for 5 sec with every hit)
  • With an absolute epic design, special runes in the blade and a lion head on the backsite of the blade and it is shining very bright in yellow and light green

or something for the dwarf:
The lightning hammers of Grungnirs brother

  • 2 properties
  • 1 common trait
  • 1 fix special trait (atk speed +5%)
  • With an absolute epic design, one hammer looks like Thors hammer, the other one with a flaming dwarfen fist as head of the hammer and there are lightnings rushing through both weapons. And if you are doing strong attacks and the weapons get near to each other, lightnings will sparkle from one hammer to another.

And if you guys want to kill your fans with love, you will make a full armor set to each and every special weapon. Every armor should be farmable by the own (20h+ for one piece would be great) and granting also a set bonus if you wear it with the corresponding weapon (something very little, like movement speed +5%, or a few more points on defense, or dodge range + 5%, etc…)
And please, if you really decide on doing new armor sets, the come up with many individual fantastic styles. You have soooooo beatiful ideas, it yould be a waste if these special armors would look similiar to others.

You really need to nerv the last Victor (Zealot) a little bit and make the Berserker Bardin a little bit stronger.
Why?
Because no one is a better melee fighter then a Slayer, that is a Warhammer fact, but here is the status quo:
Victor is outmatching Bardin in the close combat with his new Falchion and Axe, plus he has ranged weapons, which is more than a benefit to the Slayer.

Dwarves have a higher stamina then humans, but the Slayer is dying much quicker then the Zealot.
Dwarves are stronger then humans, but the Zealot is doing more Damage than the Slayer (with the falchion and axe weapon)
The Zealot cannot die for a few seconds in a while which is a completely overpowered skill but the Slayer cannot do this? strange.
The Zealot has ranged weapons and the Slayer has none.
The Zealot is getting stronger and stronger if he loses more and more health, but the Slayer not.

There you really need to fix something because it doesnt matter how strong a human fanatic can become, he can never outmatch a dwarf, especially not a Slayer in survivability, health, stamina, or strength.

A few ideas to bring more balance between these 2 classes:

  • You could make the Slayer as strong as the Zealot, or even stronger, because he has no ranged
    weapons.
  • You could grant the Slayer the suvivability skill (not dying for a few seconds) and take it from the Zealot
  • You could let the Slayer throw his second weapons, which would do the damage of a strong attack multiplied by 4. Then you have to kill the enemy, in which the weapons are stuck, to get them back. If you throw them out of the game (unreachable zones), you have to wait 45 sec to get them back automatically.

I do not want you to change a tanky class into something else or change a non tanky class into a full tank, no but I want some balance, because the Zealot is the most overpowered character atm, and that should not be.
As a real warhammer fan I have to tell you, that a Zealot can never outmatch a Slayer in close combat, so please fix a little bit here :smiley:

If you are creating more content, you could implement a few more known persons from the warhammer universe, like Felix, Gotrek, Ulrika, Max, etc. and let meet the players them in in one or another stage. Not while combating in the game, but maybe in a cross scene before a boss fight starts.

Something like:
Before the boss fight in the woods starts, Gotrek is slaying a Champion of Tzeentch nearby (An area where the players cannot reach them) and is hacking brutaly with his magical axe into the head of the fallen creature. After he is done with his enemy he is spitting on him and shouting in the direction of the players: “Hey! This one was mine, you can have that one behind you!”, after that Felix is joing Gotrek and asks him: “Gotrek, you are alright?”. Gotrek just snorts and say: “Manling, we already had worse, I am alive, so come on let’s search another doom! Hahahahahaa”. After that, both heroes run away into the woods and on the other side of the area a big boss monster is rushing through the trees, disrooting and throwing them away.

We really need more enemies. There are 100 different enemies in the warhammer universe and you have sooo much races.
We also wanna fight with our lovely heroes against:

  • Lizard Men
  • Orcs and Goblins (greenskins)
  • Undead (Mummies, Vampires, skeleton warriors, ghuls, etc…)
  • Beastman (all different styles and arts of them)
  • Ogres
  • Fimirs
  • Chaos dwarves
  • Dark elves
  • All different races and characters of the 4 chaos gods, which are many many many individuals.

And please, give us more bosses! We love to slay the big ones!

If you have in mind that you will just take one new race for ever Warhammer Vermintide game I have to say to you that this would be a fail.
Why?
Because if you are giving sooner more races, you can change the games which will come in the future with better combat systems, better stories, better loots, better bosses. I think we really need more diversification, because if you are presenting your (in my opinion) BEST GAME just step by step over years, the motivation of your fans will fall and you would not be different then one of those “shitty” Gaming companies “Ubisoft” or “EA”. These companies are just for the money and it seems like that you are not just after the money. Every real fan will buy every DLC with happiness and love in the heart, but you need to give your fans love in every deatail and from time to time something unexpected like a full new race and new bosses in one of your future DLC

I know you guys can do it, and I really love to see a game like Warhammer Vermintide in your golden hands. You have all of my faith and I know you will manage this to the best possible way.

Just promise me that you will stay true to your fans! From time to time it can get hard, but if you are giving your fans big parts of content, love, details, and some epic items, which need a large amount of time to obtain, then you will get much more back! Much more of all! Love, Money, positive wibes, amazing feedbacks and loyal fans!

I hope my feedback can help you in any way!
I wish you the best of all the luck in the universe!
You will do this!

Sorry for my broken english or incorrect grammar, english is not my native language!

Greetings!
Mephaisto, one of your biggest fans!

While I do agree with most of your assessments, I do have commentary on a few points…

That’s something I have to quite strongly disagree with. While the Talents are mostly in a good place, there still are huge points of imbalance (and at least one Talent that straight doesn’t work). Practically every Career has Talents that are near-worthless, and ones that are overly strong. As an example from the first category, the “enemies disabling you take double damage”: it’s too rarely useful, and even in those situations, it does hardly anything. Of the second group, Zealot’s and Slayer’s survival Talent that caps the damage they take to 10 or half the original, whichever’s larger. It’s too powerful, both in comparison to the options, and by itself. In Legend, it affects the vast majority of hits.

This is a game where the “endgame” is pretty much what you make of it yourself. There is no grand goal except to have fun and get better. If you need to have discrete goals to have motivation to play, you need to set them yourself - at least once you’ve unlocked the bragging rights rewards, and if they are your aim instead of enjoying the gameplay, well, you’re in for a grind.

As for the ideas, I’m a little more skeptical…

While more of everything is usually fun, I’ll rather take three good maps instead of more mediocre ones. Designing boss fights isn’t easy either, and while they can bring a lot more into a game, they also need to be done well. Check the changelogs from the early days to see how much trial-and-error there was in the current Lords’ balancing.

While long-term aims could be fine, I don’t think getting new, stronger weapons would be a good idea. I’ve also wanted to get something more unique for the weapons - but it’s for the usual Veteran weapons, to make them feel different from perfect-roll Exotics, and they need to be in balance. If one additional attribute is introduced to certain weapons, even if it’s fixed, that will be very blatant power creep (and without going into it deeper, that’s honestly something to avoid here). A 5% Movement Speed bonus doesn’t sound like much, but that’s already what we get from a Property… And while hard to notice immediately, it already gives a big passive boost to one’s survivability. Also, more glowy parts don’t immediately make a weapon cooler, but that’s not a significant point.

Zealot certainly is overly strong now. Taht’s partially due to the new Axe and Falchion, but some of it is quite innate to the Career. Slayer’s still very effective too, though, and is a lot better balance-wise - I think of those two, only Zealot needs to be adjusted. All this has been discussed elsewhere in more depth, though.

If any cameos beyond mentions are implemented, they are likely to steal the show, even if they’re non-interactive. The main characters here are the U5, not Gotrek&Felix, Lady Genevieve, or someone else fans are already familiar with. Besides, while FS has licences to the general WHF stuff, I’m not sure about individual characters.

Different enemies are something that’s constantly requested, both as a new faction and as new units from the existing groups. There are a lot of threads about it, and by people better versed in WHF lore than me. As a short recap, though, if we get a new faction (like seems to be your wish), Beastmen seem the most likely.

And as a last thing, try presenting your opinions as your own, not “the fans’”. You don’t represent the whole fan community. It will sound better to others when you don’t try to represent them, or even appear like it. Always good to have more voices heard, though.

Wow that was a harsh answer, like I was attacking you and you need to defend someone.

Some facts, and I don’t want to offend you with them:

  • You can read out of my feedback, that it is my feedback and if I am talking about “your fans” and “we” then I mean more people than just myself, but not the whole community. If you feel better with it I can use “my friends and me” instead. That way I think I can not offend any other people, but thanks for this tip! :grinning:

  • If you are talking like that it seems like you have programmed some parts of the game, did you?
    I can never speak from a technical point of view, that is why I pronounced the “fan wishes” as ideas of mine of which FatShark can use any, all or none if they want too.

  • I really do think, that some item sets to grind is a good idea, because most of the people have not endless motivation to keep on playing for an avatar frame. There has to be a reward. Much more needed, a reward with meaning. And I think a setbonus (1 extra stat like these +5% values) of a weapon set and an armor set is not as much game changing as you talked out. Even if they do a new variety of skins for every weapon which look completely different (and not just glowing in another color) it would be enough.
    People which do not want to farm them, they do not need to.

  • I did not said that every weapon has to glow, If you read my thread again you will see it.

  • Fans of this game will always feel like the greatest hero if they play it, and no Gotrek or any other Hero could steel this feeling. I would say that most of the Warhammer Vermintide Players are in general Warhammer fans and if they see some characters to give the story a little push they feel more excited, especially if they know some of them.

  • No one said something about mediocore maps, if the map design takes longer, then the DLC will take longer too, that means the release of it will take longer too. Shooting out 2 or 3 (old) maps so that a dlc can be bought sooner can never be the best plan. Good things need time, everyone knows that. And until now I have to say that I love every map which was designed and published from FatShark until now.

  • You are right with the balance system of the talents, but even if it is not perfect balanced, for me it is well enough to play with it and have great joy in trying some builds, that is why I said “well balanced talent system”. Sure some skills are stronger than others, but this is nothing that troubles me.

Sorry, that’s just pretty much my style here. Brutal honesty, I guess. Because of that (and a few other things) I probably also come off as way more serious and, well, aggressive than I am irl. But commenting on points where our opinions differ brings a lot more to the conversation than just “yeah, I think so too”. As I said, I mostly agree. But you’ll come to expect more of this kind of digging into problems and long posts from me if you hang here longer.

And no, I’m no programmer, but I like to think I have some sense in how hard it is to do some things. Honestly, I can’t figure out what actually made you feel that way… Most of what I say is just observations, and some basic understanding about things being often more difficult and slower to do than they appear.

Item grind is okay in my book as long as it’s cosmetic only. If there’s a gameplay-affecting reward in it, it feels like I’m forced to do it - not a good thing. And to be honest, I’ve never really understood the idea of the game’s best items being effectively a bragging rights reward: To get the best item, you need to prove that you don’t need it. I know I’m not alone in it, but I also know that a lot of people want something to aim for, and I think some (suitably impressive, of course) cosmetics could hit that itch.

Fanservice (not the half-clothed female kind, this time, although seeing Sienna that way would be interesting) is often fun, and there’s some of it already. But without knowing the lore, I think that most of the established characters have their own things to do, and wouldn’t be appearing even near our heroes. Also, as I already mentioned, those kinds of things have a tendency to hijack situations, especially if they’re used liberally. I wouldn’t mind some nods to more of the lore, but I just think they’re better kept as only nods. A painting of Gotrek, Lohner mentioning another famous person he’s met, little things like that. A little something for the fans to notice.

True, you didn’t mention mediocre maps directly. But as quantity increases, the quality of a product is likely to decrease, and getting six maps in one DLC would likely result in the maps being of lower quality than what we’re used to. Unless, of course, they spent way more time making them, which would present its own problems. Btw, if you read the Dev blog about it, you’ll see that updating the old maps to VT2 wasn’t really that much less work than making completely new ones. Basically, they saved time on some graphical assets and designing the basic structure of those maps. Almost everything else needed to be heavily tweaked or redone completely.

Interesting. So you’re saying that you think the talents are in a decent place, but your concern is with the balance between talents. I disagree with this focus, we should be looking at the talent system in its entirety. The talent system and the majority of talents are underwhelmingly uncreative and do not encourage a unique playstyle. I don’t think we should focus on being pleased at how balanced an underwhelming talent system is and balancing it even more.

I expected the current talent system to be replaced months ago. It was a nice placeholder for the beta, but that’s about it. They had a year to do something great with it, but it’s just some stats and mandatory decisions tbh. Could have thrown 60% of talents on an additional item and you would have the same effect.

From all the information I gather, they’re going to focus on the traits and possibly some new content. Great, but I think they shouldn’t be so complacent and satisfied with the current talent system.

Evry good idea shoud be lisened. (specialy ideas about new enemies, map etc)

But forum ideas like:
Nerf this, overbuff this, make content easier, gief loot here and now, and other ruinous power pleas on forum need to be ignored. (those stuff ruined alot of games). First money for devs go up, then game cease to exist. Lisening ideas like this is most dangeerous devs can do, if they care about future for their games. So far fatshark doing well resisting temptation. GJ .

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