Falcion tweak suggestion

Axe and Falcion / Falcion have a combo in common : push attack -> light 1 -> light 2. However, it is alot faster on Axe and Falcion, which makes it feel clunky when used with the Falcion. Is there anyway the Falcion’s combo could have the same speed as Axe & Falcion’s ?

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The problem is its horde clear would be too effective with such a change. Over the A&F the Falchion has:

  • 5% more dodge distance
  • Linesmen on l1 and l2
  • Shield breaking on l3, h1 and h2
  • A seemingly slightly better movement curve when attacking
  • H1/h2 are one of the best attacks in the game for headshotting Chaos Warriors
  • L3, h1/h2 have slightly better bodyshot damage and slightly worse headshot damage than the A&F’s heavy attacks. L3 is a high damage attack for its speed.

The A&F has over the Falchion:

  • Higher elite and monster dps
  • Better stagger with axe lights
  • Heavy hits with two weapons which has good synergy with temp on cleave
  • Better push attack angle for headshots

The Falchion’s only real weakness is monster damage now.

This point isn’t relevant to normal Cata, but I just want to say that the Falchion on Zealot turns OnslaughtPlus into normal Onslaught.

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Falchion is kinda good but it has some issues to me, medium cleave and i don’t see linesman very effective for staggering, doesn’t suit well with the low attack speed on the L1 which is the same speed as 1h hammer and doesn’t combo with the push attack for some reason.
It feel like a kinda slow 1h sword and kinda low tier against horde if you’re alone plus the pattern like a 1h sword (Kerilian) is not very kind with headshoting multiple targets unlike Kruber’s one.

And the heavy attack change the weapon into an Axe which has low cleave but armor piercing, i was confused trying to use it like a 1h sword
I think the attack speed on this weapons is what making it inferior to a 1h sword, it might have better armor penetration with heavy but the pattern who tend to be horizontal which make it weaker option to use againt a armors close to weaklings, since L3 is vertical and have high armor piercing.

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mass modifiers do not affect stagger; only cleave

And you right about that, i should have said instead : “Linesman is not very effective with the weapon motions to expect hitting more targets”.

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Falchion is the best weapon for Saltz rigth now.

i like falchion a lot now. its much better then what it was before.

While personally I really like Falchion gameplay wise, it’s nowhere near the Flail for Zealot or Rapier for WHC and BH.

I personally think It depends on the team comp. Teams with low horde dps weapons that have poor ‘effective’ anti shield capabilities (e.g. Shade with DD, RV with a 1h Hammer etc.) benefit from the mixed horde clear and shield breaking the Falchion brings, but less so from the Rapier, and the Flail can easily be overkill.

I wouldn’t put it as the best either, but it’s competitive and flexible enough to do well consistently on any Saltz build. It’s what I default to on BH when I want more horde clear now if my team already has enough elite clear.

Zealot with Flail is a better frontliner, while with the Falchion Zealot has higher mobility and breaks shields, which helps horde dps for allies a bit even if it’s not as effective as the Flail’s shield penetration. Good in a team that likes to kite a lot.

It won’t ever have the Crazy Killing Shot synergy the Rapier has or the relatively excessive dps the Billhook has with Flense but I think it’s because WHC has some issues currently.

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They could give the push attack higher cleave. This would make up for the poor headshot angle, and would look right because it’s shallower angle than the l1 & l2. That or an attack speed buff like w1ldcupcake suggested could work.

Again, i wont take Zealot as an exemple since every weapons works with him, the issue here is not the mobility neither the DPS, the part were the weapons is kinda unsafe within group of enemies due to the L1 and push attack problem.

By the time you landing the attack you could easily get hit which mean push is required, unlike another 1h sword from sienna, kerillian and kruber.

Having shield breaking on L3 H1/H2 which are single target meaning you could hit something else instead appear not very appealing over a more versatile weapon, even the flail only good for it’s heavy attack seems more effective.

I’ve seen myself enjoying quite a lot with the falchion playing solo it’s not quite awful as i made it
sound, i just feel like these issues would’nt make the weapons overpowered but more of a strong choice instead play it for fun ?

Could be an option to fix the combo issue but that seems a lot like 1h hammer then ? i’d like a crit bonus here, since the weapon suffer from no crit bonus base if i remember well, making swift slaying hard to maintain.

I forgot to mention, as a bounty hunter falchion doesn’t suit well with him for temp hp, on Crit/headshot suffer from it’s motion and low crits, on kill suffer for it’s low cleave on heavy mean that you would prefere to kill them with ranged or a better melee.

The weapon is supposed to be unsafe. It’s why it originally only had 4 stamina until it got weirdly buffed. Same deal with the Greataxe. Offensive versatility at the cost of defense. The murderous nature of the Falchion is even in its weapon description. The only issue was that its offense was never really that great, and it was overshadowed by the other options.

Possibly. I don’t think crit chance would actually be all that useful on this weapon. It’s still quite fast and with the recent changes to crits shouldn’t have that much issue with swift slaying up time. The main reason for buffing the cleave of the push attack is to help both WHC and BH who don’t quite cleave enough with the Falchion on Cata+. It would also just make things a lot smoother for them on normal Cata.

Yeah but Kruber’s and Sienna’s 1h sword’s lights (and the weapon overall) are trash against armour even on headshot. The 1h sword is also worse against monsters and is awful against shields. It’s terrible for mixed hordes. It’s even not great for kiting because of it’s comical mobility compared to other 1h weapons.
Kerillian’s 1h Sword doesn’t even kill Skavenslaves on light headshot untill properties and talents come in lol. Deals with hordes poorly. Good for elites and monsters though.

I don’t recall any weapons that have multi target shield breaking attacks (Bolt staff might). That doesn’t make the shield breaking bad. The Flail is good until you’re fighting a CW or a monster which it is terrible against.

Fair point on the temp health generation, it does have pretty mediocre temp generation on BH.

Perhaps just a lower delay between attacks then?

I’ll admit that my experience has been warped by my recent time with the Falchion on Zealot. I can see how it can be too slow for realistic application on BH, and on WHC under high stress scenarios.

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Greataxe got a speed buff and a cleave buff tho

So you agreed the Falchion making no sense at it’s current state ?

I’ve been playing alone True solo BH falchion with crits property and i can tell you swift slaying is hard to maintain.

Sure, since H1/H2 is only single target unlike the other 1h which got better cleave, but a falchion short type of weapon ( match the kerillian dagger on size lol) a big cleave would be weird and i don’t think that the way it should be, even if it help.

Also Falchion have less cleave than 1h swords from lights

Yeah 1h sword doesn’t shine very well but the issue with BH ( WC too but he’s quite ok with some ) is beside rapiere and billhook he doesn’t have much choice of a weapon unlike other heroes ( dawi is another topic )

Falchion is a bit better on armor sure but slightly on light headshot damage, but like for elf, despite the breakpoint slave build joke have a lot more crits ( around 10% )

Their damage on monster are bad but falchion is no exception.

That all i was asking for : Lower the delay for L1 and possibility to chain over the push attack, then the crits wont be really necessary i assume.

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Only thing falchion lacks now is one little tweak in the attack chain: charged 2 should chain into light 3, to match 1h-sword in this regard. Charged-Charged-light is the well-proven anti-armour combo on 1h-sword and there is very little reason falchion with its almost identical chains shouldn’t behave the same.

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Due to the speed of l3 and how h1, h2 and l3 all have the same damage profile as the 1h Axe’s heavy you would have a superior 1h Axe with higher armour dps, especially on CWs. That could be fine, but the 1h Axe would need its own buffs/tweaks to compensate. It makes a lot of sense for h2 to chain into l3 though, and would at least give the weapon some more complexity to its attack chains.

I do. I would be fine with two stamina being taken in return for it being made into a faster and more responsive weapon that offensively deals with everything decently.

D’you think the Falchion’s issues are with its stats, or with its lack of synergy with any of Saltz’ classes? I like it on BH but rapier can do a similar job and is undoubtedly much safer, and has SS on demand with the pistol shot + blessed shots. I imagine it’s a good all rounder on Zealot, but presumably you’d still be getting better DPS with A + F or Billhook. WHC doesn’t really synergize with it either.

Like, I think it’s for sure viable and in a basically good spot, but I’m just not sure what niche is really left for it amongst Saltz’ other pretty outstanding weapons.

Edit: This is a kinda wonky idea, but I was thinking recently that if it also had rapier’s pistol special it’d at least be a competitive choice for BH since he can use it for SS on demand.

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You make a good point. If Merc had access to the Falchion it would be very strong, possibly meta, but BH takes on a lot of risk with it, WHC performs better with other weapons (Billhook has better cleave, Rapier is better for headshots/crit fishing) and everything works well with Zealot (only really shines on Zealot over other options on Onslaught + due to having mobility, being able to cleave Marauders, having shield breaking and from having better superarmour dps than the Flail).

That would help, but in the end it would still be worse than the Rapier. The reason I suggested cleave earlier was because that gives it effectively more safety, control and dps but in an offensive way, which I think would be appropriate for a cutting weapon.

I’m not sure how else to make it better and unique to the other weapons.

The Rapier is a lot less safe against Norscan hordes as it doesn’t cleave Marauders without Enhanced Power or power stacking from talents (BH usually has Enhanced Power and has other talents to increase power, so it’s most applicable to WHC who will usually have Assassin).

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