Elf needs a nerf

Apologies if it looked like twisting your words.

All weapons are useable in official, that’s true.
2h hammer is just not what I, personally, would describe as a strong weapon all things considered.

Fully agree on that.
In my opinion, the current power level of melee weapons is in a good spot and the only notable and problematic exception is the cleave on M&S heavy attacks.

Apart from that, no melee weapon is causing any build to be overpowered or too strong.

Yes, strong melee weapons help make builds good and therefore also make op builds even better but strong melee weapons do not create any balance problem by themselves.

The actual root of any form of overtuned build is ranged weapons, talents/ults/classes being out of line.
They are to blame, not melee weapons. Thus, it’s the former and not the latter that should be addressed.

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It might be considered ironic to a degree but i´d say the weakness lies in it being a spear, a weapon mostly aimed at single target killing and no so much control or multiple targets. And while it has some degree of it in game with the wide push and good clear on crits it´s still one of the weapons that struggle with multiple armors/Shields, especially shields.

Mixed hordes are also somewhat difficult since any elite or shield will easily eat the block-swipe and mess with the normal attempts at controlling the smaller but more numerous enemies. This struggle is one i´d say it shares with the halberd whose heavy swipe doesnt have armor gliding.

But well, the weaknesses noted are rather moot for shade or handmaiden who can bring enough stat boosters to make it go wild, the weaknesses are more keenly felt on waystalker if entering a lot of melee with her.

So basically its weakness is that when it’s used by a ranged class it doesn’t roflstomp everything? :slight_smile:

Its heavies have good single target stagger, decent damage and good crit chance. The heavies are great on it. Its weakness is its poor reach and how its movement speed doesn’t scale well with attack speed (check the speedbook, elven 1h Sword has stagnant progression).

Without any gear or talents, on Cata the heavy overhead does 28.65 on headshot to an SV and takes 0.6s. The full charge for Rapier does 33.65 on headshot and takes 0.7s, while having no crit chance, no stagger, and less bodyshot damage. The armour damage is fine. The weapon lacks in other aspects.


In what ways is Kerillian’s Spear overtuned?

Most weapons, particularly the other polearms/spears are good at it too. Past a certain skill threshold how good a single target attack inherently is at headshotting doesn’t matter much, with upsweeps and a few notable attacks being the exception.

Ker’s Spear isn’t really any better than something like Halberd at headshots. For example, the Halberd’s first heavy stab is better for headshotting and dragging (it has an extremely long window for dragging the attack). A quick look at the weapon’s hitboxes will elucidate the topic. Steam Workshop::Hitbox Debugger

The Halberd happens to have below average horde dps (it’s only above non-horde dps weapons, not much better than the 1h Hammer) as well as being poor defensively. It’s not a jack of all trades weapon. It’s a good reach, mild damage (decent armour damage, meh horde damage), poor mobility weapon. Pretty much inferior to something like the Falchion, which isn’t overtuned.


AnF is weaker than SnD. SnD can get to H2 through H1 or through the push attack. AnF can only get to its only attack with Linesmen through its push, and it doesn’t get half cost pushes. H1 > H2 for SnD happens to be slightly faster than H1 > H2 for AnF and safer because SnD’s H1 has cleave. 2 Rapier full charge heavies is notably slower.

Without talents/gear:

  • Rapier full charge > partial charge takes 1.65s and deals 51.39 to armour on headshot/20.06 on bodyshot.
  • Rapier 2x full charge takes 2s and deals 67.30 to armour on headshot/26.26 on bodyshot.
  • SnD H1 > H2 takes 1.84s and deals 65.54 to armour on headshot/30.08 on bodyshot.
  • SnD push attack > H2 takes 1.56s and deals 57.78 to armour on headshot/28.89 on bodyshot.

Both of these SnD chains are safer than Rapier doing full charge > partial, and they both do more bodyshot damage to armour. Where are you getting your damage numbers from? I’m getting mine from the damage calc. Keep in mind SnD is also more likely to crit on H2 and with its push attack, and that Rapier does less damage to superarmour, while SnD doesn’t.

This is a minor weakness. A player doesn’t just go up to a horde with Rapier and full charge headshot every elite in it without mixing in pushes to provide safety for themselves. Realistically speaking, both Rapier and SnD will do push attack > heavy. SnD might have worse breakpoints, but it’s still higher dps. Funny thing is, SnD can do H1 > H2 vs a horde if the player wants to, because H1 is a dual wield attack with some cleave.

SnD also has half cost pushes, but they’re also normal stagger strength.

The crit chance on H2 isn’t justifiable, nor is it minor to have a push attack with extra crit chance, followed by a dual wield attack with extra crit chance.

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Which is one is actually shares with a few number of weapons, many melee can simply pump enough steroids around to make anything work.For instance i am fairly sure the 1handed axe is mostly universally considered bad, but there are handmaiden players who made builds which accomplish that.

Saltz flail is, in my opinion, weak by itself, but zealot can ram in enough boosts to actually make it rather strong. Firesword isnt amazing by itself but battlewizard can straight up double the damage.

etc.

From a balance aspect you are absolutely right, but in practice i think it´s noteworthy that at least WHC, and maybe a stacked zealot? Can boost the rapier charged heavies enough to kill a rotblood marauder in a single headshot.

Then furthermore that´s accomplished with a near permanent if not outright permanent uptime on careers based boosts, this the elf cant do even if she can use something short lasting like the shade CoM to make it hit hard.

I would say that makes the rapier feel better to play for them more than the 1handed sword does for the elf melee fighting specialist, handmaiden, or any other elf career for that matter. Although SoT does kinda make it feel a lot better in practice via her passives, especially on infantry.

Directly comparing weapons on one character to the weapons on another is taking things out of context and misinterpreting them.

Yet even if we did compare them, Rapier has advantages over S&D, as do other weapons such as M&S, Dual Hammers and A&F, e.g. more reach, stagger strenght, more cleave, faster attacks, easier headshot angles, more damage against certain types of enemies.
E.g. Axe&Falchion can interrupt elite attacks such as SV running attacks, Rapier has better reach, an very safe push light light chain, some of the best hs angles, not just normal bcr (S&D has worse than normal), Rapier has even better than normal bcr, Rapier has a pistol that has unlimited ammo and can be used while blocking.
S&D also has advantages over them, light extra crit on h2, yet also has disadvantages like needing a heavy or a push.

Whereas pushing or heavy attacking before your best heavy attack is an option on other weapons, it is a requirement on S&D.
That not only lowers the uptime on h2 due to its reduced availability, it also means that the damage it deals must be higher to justify this extra requirement.
Push attacking costs stamina on a weapon with worse than average bcr, a heavy one costs extra time - and both deal a lot less damage than a proper single target heavy while not being that great at killing hordes or cleaving targets.
If you can only get 1 attack off due to pressure, S&D is less useful than other weapons that have easy and immediate access to their strong attacks.

The numbers show that S&D, if it did not have extra crit, would deal the same - or in the case of infantry, even less - damage to single targets than comparable weapons.
However, no other weapon has the disadvantage of having to go through extra moves to deal good single target damage.
That extra requirement justifies an increase in the single target focus via extra crit chance.
If a weapon requires combos to be as effective as others, then that’s not exactly a fair trade.
Such a weapon should have a reward for this requirement, and in the case of S&D that reward is extra crit.

All of that only concerns direct comparisons, which are flawed.
The real evaluation should be based on the context.

In this case:
Does S&D on any elf class cause issues? The answer is not really.
Besides, if you nerf S&D, you also nerf the classes that can use it => weapons should not be looked at in isolation or it can cause further balance domino issues.

E.g. if Shade has her CoM adjusted like in the tourney rebalance, a nerf to S&D would possible put her dps even lower.
I’ll just take Shade as an example because Shade is more reliant on crits and the closest thing we have to a melee dps class for Kerillian.
Compare Whc to a Shade - in tourney rebalance, I’d say Shade still deals more damage on average but not that much more.

Whc is a mix of dps and support, Shade a true dps class.
If a support class deals almost the same dps as the true dps class, then that’s an issue.
A nerf to S&D would only exacerbate that.
Imagine if Merc dealt almost the same - or even more! - damage than Gk. Gk would be pointless then.
Or if Merc dealt almost the same or more dps than Slayer if you want to compare 2 different classes of different characters.
If Ws with S&D deals more melee dps than Bh with Rapier, it’s less siginificant due to them not being melee focused classes.
But the melee classes should be balanced according to their role: A dps and the relevant melee weapons ought to be able to deal more dps than a support/dps mix and their respective melee weapons.

Judging the effectiveness of S&D with this in mind, the extra crit is justified.
Not only due to the fact that it needs combos to be but also due the overall power level it allows melee focused classes that use S&D to perform according to their role.
A melee dps like Shade with S&D deals more damage than a support class like Whc with Rapier and that’s balanced.
If a nerf to S&D causes that damage difference to shrink (which a crit chance nerf undoubtedly will), then that’s an issue and unjustified given the strong support kit of sth. like Whc.

They should not be compared on the basis of “does S&D allow Kerillian’s melee classes to deal more damage than Saltz’ melee classes” since that is useless; the different classes have more to them than just melee dps output.
Based on the purposes of the individual classes and their weapons, melee balance is good.

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The question is whether relative advantages of one weapon against another, i.e. stagger, cleave etc. have different utility in different difficulties.

I.e. the ridiculous cleave the Greatsword has is nigh useless on any difficulty below Legend, only mildly useful on Legend, and only truly shines on Cata.

On the other hand, weapons with high damage against single or armored targets are ridiculously more useful on lower difficulties than on Legend or Cata.

The devs have created quite the conundrum with balancing around only one difficulty instead of balancing on a per difficulty basis.

Edit: sry for the double post, at first it looked like it wasn’t an answer to @Rapax post, but now the deleted one shows up as one?

Zealot needs 20% Chaos, 6x Fiery Faith and Smiter, BH needs 10% Chaos, Assassin and Hunter. WHC needs Assassin + 20% Chaos or Deathknell (maybe there’s a Flense breakpoint, I haven’t checked). It’s great for mixing up gameplay and has good uses, particularly vs infantry specials. I definitely miss not having an attack like it on other weapons.


Rapax, your post is difficult for me to navigate. Forgive any snappiness in my reply, it’s been a frustrating typing experience.

I think this is just overcomplicating the issue. It’s fairly obvious from a cursory glance that SnD has a very high pick rate, and it’s not because Spear is bad. Something between its and Spear’s level of strength would be a better balance, and removing the crit chance on heavy 2 isn’t going to put SnD below Spear. I made comparisons earlier between Rapier WHC’s and SnD Shade’s superarmour damage earlier, so I’m not just focusing on the weapons in a vacuum.

Also, I swear whenever I discuss with the ones that don’t want nerfs to Kerillian’s weapons, the Kruber mains just up and vanish. Where’s (my):

Have you by chance read the list of comparative points I made much earlier in the thread between Rapier and SnD? The thread is a long one, so let me know if I need to link my earlier reply to the thread with the list.

  • SnD has a better outer block angle block cost.
  • The worse headshot angles are compensated by better bodyshot damage.
  • The Rapier’s pistol’s is certainly useful, but it has a cooldown, and other than that attack the Rapier has completely inferior stagger strength to SnD.
  • SnD has less reach, but better movement during light attacks and heavies than Rapier, with no reliance on attack speed for its move tech.

And when it’s only safe enough for a single light cleaving attack? Rapier and SnD definitely beat the others. This argument can be made when made comparing to Rapier, but not for Mace & Sword or Dual Hammers, because unlike Rapier and SnD neither of those weapons deal relevant armour damage with light attacks. AnF too is less effective in this regard, because its first light has very little cleave + its light attack chain is slower than Rapier’s and SnD’s, which makes it pretty unsafe when under pressure by comparison.

The damage of H2 is high relative to its speed. The only enemy type it could be argued to be low against is vs infantry, which is only relevant for infantry specials which SnD still hardly has trouble killing. The lights are much more than adequate for hordes. I want these exact numbers, dps tests and attack speed values.

That’s also because of Flense and possibly Fervency. Killing Shot can be changed and WHC would still be solid as a support. Probably should change. I’ve got a true solo run to prove it if needed. Blah blah only one of these careers requires headshots blah blah. Just getting that point out of the way before someone else says it.

I’m sorry, but the damage is clearly relevant or you wouldn’t also be bringing it up. I’m not only discussing damage in my replies.

That should come from Shade’s kit, not the weapon. Frostysir made a good point about Handmaiden vs Shade without Cloak of Mists in the Onslaught Series Tourney Balance Mod thread. Am I saying Cloak of Mists isn’t busted? No, it is. I’m saying Shade’s design is bad.

Having crit chance on a dual wield attack is flat out abnormal in this game, let alone on one that deals high armour damage. Having crit chance on a dual wield heavy is fantastic for Swift Slaying up time as well, and SS is a part of the balance, if we like it or not.

Also, are you suggesting that SnD and Dual Hammers are on the same level?

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I can agree with moonbow being too strong, and sister needing another look because her crowd damage from ult is still particularly good. But this comes across as senseless ranting instead of offering much logical here - javelin? Javelin isn’t even good, it’s usable, it doesn’t have good breakpoints and it still just outclassed by longbow and hagbane for sniping or crowd control even if we completely forget about moonbow. It’s not correct to assume something is overpowered simply because it’s used- if that was the case, swiftbow and greatsword wouldn’t cause more elgi deaths per annum that the average silent hookrat. Your personal winrate in qp dropping is nobody’s fault, wins are always going to be dependent on you if you’re the strongest player in a current party. I’ve clocked 1100 hours and there has always been an abundance of weaker players in cata that are reaching. Saying elf in her entirety needs nerfing as she has one class that’s overperforming when other classes have the same issues like battle wizard, ironbreaker and whc have been how they are for so long is bit silly. This is a pve game. I see an elf join while I’m playing battle wizard and it’s like okay, I still have damage, temp health, damage reduction, crowd control, and team res securing. Elf is not singlehandedly destroying the game and trying to extrapolate that elf alone is making the game worse because players are flooding cata playing her makes very little sense. The strength of careers like merc and ironbreaker often helps players into harder difficulties because they’re better classes at staying alive which is the biggest hurdle for new players at higher difficulty. It isn’t our job to gatekeep people playing cata or playing classes they like, which is about as peak as official realm gets for casual players. As someone who is significantly better than average at the game, it doesn’t matter whether someone is playing shade, whc, merc or a sad pyro, if they aren’t to grips with fundamentals, you’re going to see them go down regardless. The game is in sore need of fresh balancing, gutting classes instead of making ones that are actively awful more viable doesn’t improve the game, we’d just have even further narrowed playing choices that feel competitive at higher levels.

No worries, we just happen to have a different opinion on things and that’s fine.

I have and I made my own to demonstrate that both weapons have pros and cons.
It’s statistics 101: “how to shuffle around objectively true facts until your statistic is biased enough to favor one side over the other.”
Note that I am not suggesting this is done on purpose or with evil intentions but it’s easily possible to make a lists that depict the same thing in a different light.

Ultimately, I’d argue that both weapons are fine on their respective characters.

Which ties into this.
No, Dual Hammers are probably not quite on the same level but neither do they need to be for Bardin’s melee to be well balanced when compared to Kerillian’s when taking the rest of their respective classes into consideration.
The fact that a lot of his melee arsenal is a bit on the weaker side does not change that.
His overall strength can be and is farily balanced even if his melee weapons are not on par with those of other characters.
For instance, Ib or Rv are top pick regardless of Bardin’s lower melee weapon power.

I am sorry if it looked like I said damage was irrelevant.
What I mean is that damage is relevant within the context of the rest of the characters arsenal, ranged, talents, ult, classes etc.
S&D can have higher single target damage and still be well balanced because:

A) It’s locked behind a combo - I acknowledge that you disagree with the notion that this requirement is much of a hinderance, it is a hinderance nonetheless.

B) When looking at any of Kerillian’s classes or builds, S&D is balanced within this specific context.
I mean that, as a whole, a stronger than average melee weapon like S&D does not cause any of Kerillian’s classes to be overtuned.
This comes from ranged or talent balance outliers.

Her melee weapon power level with S&D, e.g. on Shade results on adequate damage output for a class that is meant to excel in melee.
A nerf to that would be uncalled for given that it currently performs according to its purpose, aka it’s a strong melee weapon for a melee focused class.
Basically: S&D + Shade/Hm/etc. = well balanced when compared to the game’s content as an objective criterium.
Anything that is overtuned according to this criterium is due to things like SotT, Moonfire bow etc.

I realize that this criterium of “what is an adequate power level for melee (or for classes overall)” is subjective.
In my opinion, the power level of S&D is justified when looking at the game’s content and when comparing any build that uses S&D to meta builds of other characters.

A Shade with S&D is not any stronger than a Whc with Rapier (on tourney rebalance because it addresse the issue of talents like CoM).
A SotT with S&D might potentially still be too strong on rebalance, but mostly because the class of SotT is too strong in a silly way (“press f= fire and forget” and deal a lot of damage that way instead of doing much fighting) rather than S&D resulting in it being too strong.

Upsetting this melee weapon balance seems like the wrong move in my opinion.
Unless we want to redo a whole lot of the rest of the balance as well, e.g. “is billhook too good?” or to take yourexample “is Whc too good?” etc.

Naturally, this approach can be used too:
making the base line of melee weapons weaker but making the individual classes stronger/improving the synergy between a class and a weapon this class is supposed to use well.
Then end result remains the same, e.g. Hm/Shade with a nerfed S&D being ~ as good as a Whc with a Rapier or any other class with their respective weapons + kit.

That’s probably more work though.

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This post contradicts itself. You claim bardin’s toolkit justifies his weaker melee Arsenal, but the elf having a very strong melee Arsenal isn’t unjustified just because the elf has a strong talent/ranged toolkit. You can’t have it both ways.

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Nah sorry, I meant that if sth. should be nerfed, it’s Kerillian’s (EDIT:) ranged/talents like SotT, CoM, Moonfire, bow etc. and not necessarily her melee weapons, while Bardin should get melee weapon buffs to most of his stuff.

Gotcha. That makes more sense. The only issue I see with that is having a weapon that doesn’t need melee buffs to be really strong (spear + SnD) makes it really hard to balance waystalker as a ranged career. Waystalker melee is just so far ahead of the other ranged classes (barring BW flame sword, which also needs massive nerfs) that it makes it difficult to balance and still keep the feel of a ranged-focused career.

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Are you saying I’m doing that?

I’m waiting on those numbers.

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When someone says Shade with S&D has “adequate” damage I’m pretty much left at a loss as to how to respond…

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No I am not saying that and I apologize if it came across like an accusation.

What I am saying is that we can sit here and debate the pros and cons of weapons that are similiar in many ways and it would not achieve much on its own.

Weapons are relevant in the context of their respective classes, talents and ranged weapons.
Doing dps tests for S&D compared to Rapier is not looking at the full picture.

As an example for all the different factors that determine the overall ‘power’ of sth.,
how would you even factor in elements such as Whc’s tag bonus; like how much ‘value’ would you assign to that compared to the abilities of other classes?

E.g. S&D’s power level is a 8/10, Rapier is a 7/10 but Whc’s kit is 9/10 while sth. like rebalance Shade is at 7/10?
The end result being a 15/20 for one and a 16/20 for the other?
Those are all arbitrary - and not scientific - numbers meant to relfect the power of things that are incredibly hard to measure.

It would take a huge ‘n’ number of runs with comparable parameters to have reliable statistics that prove claims like “Whc with Rapier deals too much damage given his strong support role when compared to class like Shade that is a true dps class” or “firesword Bw and Ws deal too much melee damage for how strong they are at range damage.”
It’s possible to come to such conclusions based on feeling and experience but it’ll be a tough time scientifically proving any of them.
The “Vermintide Analytics” can potentially do that but I am not going to write a complete Phd on this topic.

I can only repeat what I’ve been saying:
From my point of view, the power level of melee weapons does not cause any imbalance (with M&S being an exception as it’s actually a bit out of line).
In my opinion, the power level of S&D is justified when looking at the game’s content and when comparing any build that uses S&D to meta builds of other characters.
It’s mainly the talents and ranged weapons that need addressing, not melee weapons.

I’ll respect any other opinion on the matter since the topic of where the base line power of anything in this game should be is quite subjective.

Kindly read the post again and refer to the part of “with tourney rebalance in mind.”

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Oh I read that. It still doesn’t make any sense.

If you haven’t used the mod, the mod heavily nerfs shade’s damage output via assassin and com/vanish nerfs as well as nerfs to moonbow.

And? That merely takes her damage from beyond insane to amazing. To call it “adequate” is bizarre.

I don’t think you’ve played with it from the way you’re talking. It’s good but not amazing damage tbh. At least, not in comparison to other dps classes.

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