Elf needs a nerf

[Saryk]

@Frostysir

one of my smaller gripes with the elven 1handed sword lies in such a vein. The heavies feel like they should do more damage, even if from a balance perspective that might not be true.

I do not share that. The elven sword heavies deal the same damage as the elven axe, which is more than bretsword heavies for example - and that is over 65% of a Stormvermin’s Cataclysm HP.

@Rapax

You can only take 1 melee weapon (apart from Gk/Slayer), and you usually want to take the one that’s the best.

And that is also flawed. I want to take the one I prefer, which is not necessarily the best. I could also want to take a weapon given what the team around me is using - and, in QP, that usually translates to taking the most versatile weapons because you don’t know what the team is running. The meta comes from there, not from their power. There are specialized weapons that are stronger than meta weapons for some very specific purposes - I’m thinking flamethrowers for horde clearing and the like.

@Rapax

In your average quickplay, you cannot know what weapons your team mates will bring.
It is also not possible to change your weapon once the map has started.
This means that players are heavily incentivized to bring versatile weapons.

I read this later, but on that we do agree.

@Rapax

Yea if we take SotT as base line and use the weapons on her

That was not what I was saying, but we do have to bear the synergies in mind. Dual Swords also work very well on HM, for instance.

@Rapax

There is nothing stopping anyone from running 1h sword and doing well.
It not being as good as S&D is no cause for nerfing the latter however.

The reason I’d be nerfing SnD is not because they’re better than the sword or any other of Kerillian’s weapons, it is that even when taken on its own, ignoring all the comparisons one could make, they are too good at everything.

@Rapax

For Vermintide, comparing weapons based on how they stack up against their social peers (=the other weapons) is just as flawed.

Again, we agree.

@Rapax

Dual Swords have significantly better horde clear and Glaive is not meant as horde clear weapon.

Then we disagree. Glaive having more than good infantry damage, horizontal swipes for both lights and the push attack and linesman, to me, indicates the weapon was designed for horde-clearing. It’s heavy attack combo being a good armour headshotter is a very appreciated bonus, which allows picking elites and shields within a horde.

@Rapax

Based on this criterium, melee weapons balance is in a good spot right now.
You can argue for a lower base line and then have a different criterium but that’s different topic.

This is what I’m arguing for - or rather, I’m making the point that we do not share the same base line. I agree most melee weapons are fine and even the ones that are too strong aren’t that big of a deal, but SnD for instance is one of those that I’d grade at 120%.

@Rapax

You’re bringing ranged weapon balance into a discussion about melee.
Also, there is not melee weapon that, to my knowledge, can make a pat disappear within 4 seconds.

That is true, but you were yourself saying

@Rapax

So we move the goal posts from discussing whether or not “elf is op” and whether S&D is the reason that “elf is op” - which it isn’t, as demonstrated above - to the topic of melee weapon viability?

I was merely coming back to the point that there are things that completely trivialize certain situations (i.e. a SV patrol) even the highest difficulties the game has to offer. Note that the topic started after SotT got released, but the points that are being made quite easily tie back into this other topic about everything being OP.

@Rapax

Like I said, that’s a fair opinion but a nerf to all the meta melee weapons is not needed.
Precisely because balance concerns are created by ranged and talents, as well as the domino effect that changing melee balance has.
It’s uncalled for and can cause further balance issues, so it’d be unwise to do so for a multitude of reasons. The current state of top end melee balance is good.

And I do agree with that. The melee weapons conversation is not a primordial one to have, I’d just say “the current state of top end melee balance is good enough” while talents and ranged options need to be looked at.